A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Druugan]

The more I think of it, the more I like the theory of the delayed-release voice weave as seen in the first-sister ceremony with Elayne and Avi.  Mainly because it seems to be a silly weave if that's the only time we see it.  I find it perfectly plausible to introduce a weave like this in a seemingly nonchalant and relatively insignificant way so it could be used as a major plot device at a later time.  I find it hard to believe that the detail went into including the weave and describing it, as well as the foreshadowing of Elayne remembering the weaves for it to be a one-hit wonder serving the lone purpose that it does in the ceremony.  All you would need then is to have Elayne use the weave to play a trick on Egwene and cause her to wonder... and then test it... and then go back to worrying about who she can trust all over again.

[Aquarius]

The more I think of it, the more I like the theory of the delayed-release voice weave as seen in the first-sister ceremony with Elayne and Avi.  Mainly because it seems to be a silly weave if that's the only time we see it.  I find it perfectly plausible to introduce a weave like this in a seemingly nonchalant and relatively insignificant way so it could be used as a major plot device at a later time.  I find it hard to believe that the detail went into including the weave and describing it, as well as the foreshadowing of Elayne remembering the weaves for it to be a one-hit wonder serving the lone purpose that it does in the ceremony.  All you would need then is to have Elayne use the weave to play a trick on Egwene and cause her to wonder... and then test it... and then go back to worrying about who she can trust all over again.

Do you have a book / chapter number for this ? I would love to read it again. Too bad I can't be the BUT :p

[Paerish Swar]

In the recorder theory, Mesaana might have used an inverted weave, but it wouldn't have had anything to do with the Oath Rod itself, but would only be employed to dupe the observing Aes Sedai into thinking she'd actually sworn the Three Oaths.

 

You are absolutely correct in saying that any theory should first and foremost be based in what we already know to be possible and as simple as possible. Recorder theory fits all of these thus far except for that we don't know if an observing Aes Sedai would see anything difference between an activated Oath Rod with an actual sworn oath or an activated oath rod without a sworn oath. I admit this is the only iffy part of the theory because if an observer could see the difference, Mesaana would have to counter that somehow for her illusion to hold up. We should see if Brandon would be willing to clarify.

 

The more I think of it, the more I like the theory of the delayed-release voice weave as seen in the first-sister ceremony with Elayne and Avi.  Mainly because it seems to be a silly weave if that's the only time we see it.  I find it perfectly plausible to introduce a weave like this in a seemingly nonchalant and relatively insignificant way so it could be used as a major plot device at a later time.  I find it hard to believe that the detail went into including the weave and describing it, as well as the foreshadowing of Elayne remembering the weaves for it to be a one-hit wonder serving the lone purpose that it does in the ceremony.  All you would need then is to have Elayne use the weave to play a trick on Egwene and cause her to wonder... and then test it... and then go back to worrying about who she can trust all over again.

 

I think these two theories are quite plausible, but does Mesaana have a recorder ter'angreal and does she know the Wise One's weave?

 

Also, can someone explain to me how a "communication" ter'angreal could help her in this situation at all?  Wouldn't it require her to have someone else say the Oaths in real time off somewhere else in the Tower right at the exact moment she was holding the Rod in front of the Hall?  And wouldn't it require Mesaana to disguise the other woman's voice to sound like how she has her voice disguised - as the voice of the original Aes Sedai she is impersonating?

 

OK, so Mesaana gave Alviarin a comm device that was sorta like a pager.  As far as we know it doesn't transmit speech at all.  We don't see any recording devices, especially in relation to Mesaana.  We don't know for sure that Mesaana knows the Wise One's weave, though we can assume she is smart enough to know something like it.  We don't know exactly how the Oath Rod does what it does.

 

Does anyone else feel like we're not going to have a clue how she did it until ToM comes out and Brandon walks us through it?

 

I'm just afraid that we're never going to get beyond conjecture here.

 

So . . . I want to repost my crazy little theory.

 

BS made it pretty clear that there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod itself, not just a specific oath.  So, how does one defeat the Rod?  What is the Rod? - a ter'angreal.  So, how do we defeat a ter'angreal?

 

That very question set me on a little search through the books that I'm fairly certain has not been discussed yet in this thread.

 

How is the Oath Rod used/activated?  Quote:  "Pevara channeled a thread of Spirit to the Rod" (WH, Snow)

 

A single thread of spirit? . . . Interesting!

 

Are there any other ter'angreal which we know to use a single thread of spirit to use/activate them?  Quote:  "an iron disc . . . and a plaque no longer than her hand . . . channel a flow of Spirit into either ter'angreal, and it would take you into sleep and then into Tel'ararn'rhiod." (tSR, What Lies Hidden)

 

A few ter'angreal that require just a single thread of spirit to activate . . . what might that mean?  Quote from Elayne:  "There seemed to be one common thread in those tiny structures for ter'angreal that required channeling to work, and another for those that simply made use of the Power . . ." (LoC, A Matter of Thought)

 

Possibly related Quote from Alanna after Egwene's testing for Accepted:  "I should have stopped this when I had the chance, when I first noticed that - reverberation . . . the ter'angreal almost seemed to be trying to shut off the flow from saidar . . ." (tDR, Sealed)

 

So, we all know that when you use a ter'angreal too near another that has a very similar purpose that really bad things can happen.  But, what if you use a ter'angreal too near another that doesn't have a similar purpose, but has that common thread that Elayne describes - the structures that require channeling to make them work, especially if they both require the exact same flow/thread to activate them?

 

Maybe they end up canceling each other out?!?

 

Why is this important?  We know that Sheriam had just stolen all the dream ter'angreal from the rebels within 48 hours of the Black Ajah purge in the White Tower.  She presumably delivered those ter'angreal to Mesaana as directed, which means that Mesaana had direct access to them.  And, Yes . . . the original iron disc and plaque were among those ter'angreal!

 

Here's my theory for directly defeating the Oath Rod itself:  Mesaana has the original iron disc or plaque hidden away on her person, like stuffed down her blouse or something.  Somehow the two ter'angreal interfere with each other in a way that renders them both useless.  Maybe if she channeled a flow of spirit between the two ter'angreal such an interference could happen?  Maybe she wove two threads and one of the threads of spirit was inverted?

 

I don't fully understand the exact process which Mesaana could use to nullify the ability of the Oath Rod, but I think she could figure it out since there appears to possibly be a precedent for such processes existing.

 

I especially like this theory because it creates a "trail of bread crumbs" by which Egwene can figure out who Mesaana is posing as in the WT.  Egwene has some experience with ter'angreal interfering with each other, she has some experience with dream ter'angreal specifically, and she is already the WT's only Dreamer.  Also, any other questions Egwene may have about the nature of ter'angreal can easily be answered by her confidant, Elayne the queen of all things ter'angreal.

 

She has the experience and tools to follow the trails and make all the connections that would illuminate Mesaana's method for evading the Oath Rod.  Once she connects evading the Oath Rod with the stolen dream ter'angreal she will come upon her primary lead.  All she has to do from there is hop into Tel'aran'rhiod and use NEED to search for the stolen items.  Whoever's room it is that she finds the items in TAR, is the room of the sister that Mesaana is impersonating.

 

Sharaman - I think the two issues you bring up are completely on the money and they do make the theory itself a little tough to swallow, and I have to say that I did consider some of those problems myself.  That's why I admitted that I don't really understand the exact process by which Mesaana could make the theory work.

 

But, here are a couple more thoughts on the topic that might tighten up this theory.

 

We know that really bad and dangerous things happen when two ter'angreal that have the SAME or similar purpose are really close to each other and one or both are activated.  We do NOT know what happens when two ter'angreal that have completely DISSIMILAR purposes, but IDENTICAL means of activating are really close to each other and one or both are activated.

 

Now for a crazy thought.  What if ter'angreal that require the One Power to activate them have some kind of fail-safe or internal "circuit breaker" embedded into their design?  (We know that angreal have buffers for safety purposes)

 

Imagine in the Age of Legends when there were ter'angreal all over the place.  If a channeler tried to use one of his or her ter'angreal in the vicinity of another that did something completely different, but had the same means of activation, wouldn't it be a smart safety measure to make it so that the ter'angreal you are trying to use "shuts down" while you're so near to the other one.  That way you wouldn't accidentally activate the other ter'angreal and inadvertently do something you hadn't intended.

 

Well, I know that's a little far-fetched, but what about this?

 

Since the Oath Rod and the Dream ter'angreal have such different purposes (while still maintaining some notable similarity in means of usage), perhaps the resonance/interference that occurs between them is of a much lower level of disturbance - just enough to disrupt the efficacy of the ter'angreal, but not enough to create some visibly dramatic problems.  And even if there was a certain level of discomfort for Mesaana to put herself in the middle of some ter'angreal interference, I don't think the other Aes Sedai would necessarily notice.  The process of removing all the oaths is noticeably painful, and the settling of the oaths on the body are likewise not exactly comfortable.  Whatever discomfort Mesaana might experience would be taken as a natural response to what the watching Aes Sedai assumed was occurring.

 

The theory is based on something we know (ter'angreal interference) and it requires the use of something we know Mesaana has access to (the dream ter'angreal), but the effects that I am suggesting are not provable - the mechanics of it all is certainly fuzzy. 

[Sharaman]

She may not need a comm device since we don't know how exactly the WO weave (or some AoL version) works.

We do know that a lot of OP research went into sound-manipulation.

Messi may be able to simply carry a "bubble of sound" around held by inverted weaves and release it at the right instant.

She may also be able to do something like set up a call from an inconspicuously carried comm device to another one somewhere that has her voice reciting the oaths on answering machine mode. 

As I posted before, I also like the ter'angreal spirit-interference theory 

In both cases, there are details that would have to fall into place.

But we have some info already and it would fulfil the criteria of being a way to generally beat the Rod rather than a way for one specific person to bypass one specific oath.

 

(BTW, one can assume that Aviendha also knows the WO weave since she's about as quick as Elayne when it comes to picking up stuff. Also unlike Elayne, Avi isn't having a problem due to pregnancy of being unable to embrace the source at will. So if the idea ifs that somebody will demo the weave to Egwene, it's more likely to be Avi) 

[Random Man]

Paerish Swar, your post on ter'angreal spirit interference is certainly thought-provoking and has some merit, especially considering that Egwene already knows Mesaana has the ter'angreal. Plus, as someone who wanted to be a researcher, if anyone knew how to cause such a disruption, she would.

 

The only problem I see is that the one prerequisite to whatever Mesaana does to get out of being bound by the Oath Rod is that she cannot be detected while doing it (aside from it working, that is). I find it difficult to believe that observing Aes Sedai would not notice any resonances created by the ter'angreal if the resonances were significant enough to disrupt the functioning of the Oath Rod.

 

About the theory I've been advocating: I call it "Recorder Theory" simply because I like the way it sounds, and because it's a nifty and concise way to label what would more precisely be called the Mesaana Created An Illusion Of Sound To Dupe The Observing Aes Sedai Into Thinking That She'd Sworn The Three Oaths Theory. I listed the music box and the communication devices as evidence not because she necessarily used one of these items, but because they show that the use of the One Power to capture, transmit and replay sounds was widespread in the Age of Legends. Additionally, Mesaana has a similar device (her pager) and knows how to use it without the presence of the Standing Flows, which suggests she understands how it works -- she considered herself qualified to be a top researcher in the AoL. Furthermore -- and I hadn't pointed this out before -- we know that Mesaana knows how to alter her voice with the Power. Finally, through the WO first-sister ceremony, we've seen a weave that can do exactly what Mesaana would have needed to do in order to create her illusion.

 

Speculation and conjecture? Of course. It's one of the best ways to have fun while awaiting another release.

[Druugan]

Here's how I see it going down... by combining a couple of probable theories; namely, that Mesaana is going to defeat the OR with the sound-bubble and that Mesaana is posing as Danelle (as laid out here: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50571.msg1547331.html#msg1547331).

 

So... at some point in ToM Egwene will be thinking about the reswearing of the AS.  Probably something along the lines of how her perception of other AS has changed and their perception of her.  Seemingly in the background of the scene, giving detail but in a way as to not to appear to draw too much attention to it, Danelle will be taking her turn to reswear.  Egwene will casually note that Danelle is being her usual spaced-out self, wandering around in her own little world and not talking to anyone, not even to respond to greetings.  Perhaps she'll note something a little off when Danelle does finally speak to reswear the oaths, but most likely not.  She'll move on to some other random AS and the scene will proceed.

 

Some time much later Elayne or Avienda will demonstrate the weave to her.  Somewhere in there it will be noted that no sound can escape while the bubble is active, and as soon as it is released the sound will all come out in order.  At this point... or more likely some later point she'll make the connection to Danelle's re-swearing; depending on whether she's noticed other odd or suspicious things about her before or after the demo.

 

Once she makes the connection she'll confront Danelle in an over-confident way and get herself kidnapped and maybe tortured by Mesaana.

 

Meanwhile, Rand will have discovered Mesaana's ruse in a completely different way... maybe through the Moridin link.  He'll go to the tower to try to warn Egwene and eventually rescue her.  When Rand finds Egwene, she has an emotional moment and starts babbling to Rand about everything troubling her.  Notably about her anger at the Forsaken for hiding under her nose... not once, but twice; anger at herself for being so foolish and getting herself trapped... again; and anger at Rand for having to come to her rescue when she was so sure it should have been the reverse.  And thus Elaida's foretelling will be fulfilled "Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger."

 

Though it'll most likely happen in some completely different way that will be even better.

[Sharaman]

Don;t think we'll see the actual swearing - too much back and forth.

Egwene's timeline has already moved past that.

I'd like an epic catfight in TaR if possible

[Aquarius]

Don;t think we'll see the actual swearing - too much back and forth.

Egwene's timeline has already moved past that.

I'd like an epic catfight in TaR if possible

In TA'R, Egwene will kick her ass. not even a contest. Aiel trained bad-ass TA-R fighter.

Now in the real world, Messy's got that OP strength of hers, while not Lanfear's is quite higher than Egwene's

[Durinax]

Don;t think we'll see the actual swearing - too much back and forth.

Egwene's timeline has already moved past that.

I'd like an epic catfight in TaR if possible

In TA'R, Egwene will kick her ass. not even a contest. Aiel trained bad-ass TA-R fighter.

Now in the real world, Messy's got that OP strength of hers, while not Lanfear's is quite higher than Egwene's

I disagree Messi has AoL tar training, who know what she can do

[thewalrus777]

Don;t think we'll see the actual swearing - too much back and forth.

Egwene's timeline has already moved past that.

I'd like an epic catfight in TaR if possible

In TA'R, Egwene will kick her ass. not even a contest. Aiel trained bad-ass TA-R fighter.

Now in the real world, Messy's got that OP strength of hers, while not Lanfear's is quite higher than Egwene's

I disagree Messi has AoL tar training, who know what she can do

 

You also have to remember that Mesaana isn't a badass in T'A'R. She knows her way around, but she is nowhere in the realm of skill that Ishamael, Lanfear, or Moghedien have there. Egwene is in that elite group that I just mentioned. Not to mention, Egwene is WO trained as well. And those women have complete control of T'A'R. Remember the Forsaken all have some skill in T'A'R but some are very skilled. Messi isn't one of them.

[pxnsolid]

Now in the real world, Messy's got that OP strength of hers, while not Lanfear's is quite higher than Egwene's

 

lets not forget, egwene is no slouch in the OP department either. as strong? no, but strength is not the be all, end all, as we all know.

[thewalrus777]

Now in the real world, Messy's got that OP strength of hers, while not Lanfear's is quite higher than Egwene's

 

lets not forget, egwene is no slouch in the OP department either. as strong? no, but strength is not the be all, end all, as we all know.

 

this is also true. dexterity is also huge when channeling.

[bronnt]

I like the sound recorder, or the sound bubble weaves, but I'm still hanging onto my own theory.  Namely, an inverted, thin glove of Air around her hand to prevent her from actually touching the rod so that the weaves don't take effect.  It's simple as anything for a Forsaken, and considering that she has to have an active inverted Mask of Mirrors weave on at the time anyway, it shouldn't be too complicated.

[Stagger Lee]

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone else has pointed this out.

 

The easiest way to evade the Oaths is to not take them. Verin does not tell Egwene that Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, she simply says that one of the Chosen is in the Tower. Alviarin assumed Mesaana was a sister, and maybe Verin and Egwene would too, but consider that neither Alviarin nor Verin knew of the kinds of inverted masking weaves that we know the Forsaken can use.

 

An Accepted of low perceived potential would be the best way to hide in the Tower: she would have a reasonable amount of freedom, sisters would not expect much from her, and without making any substantial progress she could remain Accepted indefinitely. There is no reason for Mesaana to have any standing in Tower hierarchy because she can easily manipulate very high-ranking sisters behind the scenes.

[mb]

Like I posted before, I would rule out channeling since she might have been shielded and/or since channeling would have raised suspicion (even when the ability is masked).

It's very, very unlikely she would have been shielded, and in fact she likely would have been allowed to weave the flows for herself for the Oath Rod. Why shield someone who isn't on the BA list and is volunteering to swear? Having to re-swear is distasteful enough to the Aes Sedai, but that would be adding insult to injury. The swearings in the rebel camp suggest the same -- only the sisters who refused to swear or tried to flee were shielded.

Why shield a volunteer? Perhaps as a precaution and/or to reduce chances of fleeing during the actual process.

insult to injury? true Blacks I imagine would have been the main ones that felt insulted/injured.

 

2) We've seen the WOs in the Elayne-Aviendha sorority ritual use a weave that retards sound (so that neither El/ Avi know what the other is saying until the WO lets them hear it)

I am not sure if it masks sound.  The weave might have been a form of Compulsion since both answer truthfully; and there might have been an order/"suggestion" to hear only certain things.

 

[Hadilmir]

mb, the sound was delayed. Both spoke at the same time, but then seconds later both voices played and they heard each others' answer.

[Dreamwalker]

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone else has pointed this out.

 

The easiest way to evade the Oaths is to not take them. Verin does not tell Egwene that Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, she simply says that one of the Chosen is in the Tower. Alviarin assumed Mesaana was a sister, and maybe Verin and Egwene would too, but consider that neither Alviarin nor Verin knew of the kinds of inverted masking weaves that we know the Forsaken can use.

 

An Accepted of low perceived potential would be the best way to hide in the Tower: she would have a reasonable amount of freedom, sisters would not expect much from her, and without making any substantial progress she could remain Accepted indefinitely. There is no reason for Mesaana to have any standing in Tower hierarchy because she can easily manipulate very high-ranking sisters behind the scenes.

 

I had thought of her being disguised as a non-channeler before, but after tGS it is certain that she is posing as Aes Sedai.

tGS Prologue:

"Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to read; Graendal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities."

So Graendal knows who Mesaana is posing as from her agents, and she knows she is posing as an Aes Sedai.

In addition, prior to tGS there was evidence that Mesaana wasn't a novice or accepted because she was wearing silks when Alviarin caught a glimpse of her dress beneath her mask of illusion. I doubt she'd be wearing silks under a MoM image of a novice or accepted dress since it would be too difficult to maintain because the dress moves whenever she walks and would cause an imperfect illusion - thus we can assume that the dress Alviarin saw was what Mesaana was wearing that day as her alter-ego in the tower.

[bobothebarbarian]

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone else has pointed this out.

 

The easiest way to evade the Oaths is to not take them. Verin does not tell Egwene that Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, she simply says that one of the Chosen is in the Tower. Alviarin assumed Mesaana was a sister, and maybe Verin and Egwene would too, but consider that neither Alviarin nor Verin knew of the kinds of inverted masking weaves that we know the Forsaken can use.

 

An Accepted of low perceived potential would be the best way to hide in the Tower: she would have a reasonable amount of freedom, sisters would not expect much from her, and without making any substantial progress she could remain Accepted indefinitely. There is no reason for Mesaana to have any standing in Tower hierarchy because she can easily manipulate very high-ranking sisters behind the scenes.

 

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread also and i agree in part but i think she is hiding as Laras!! 8) think about it she would have a position of control and freedom to go as she wanted. think about how Lanfear was in the waste she jumped around and no one ever saw any thing out of place even though she moved remarkably fast for a woman of her size. the thing that made me start to think something was off with Laras was the way she would stare at Egwene in the Kitchens but never spoke to her. Plus the ability to off any AS with a lil bit of poison would be a nice perk also  ;D

[Aquarius]

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone else has pointed this out.

 

The easiest way to evade the Oaths is to not take them. Verin does not tell Egwene that Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, she simply says that one of the Chosen is in the Tower. Alviarin assumed Mesaana was a sister, and maybe Verin and Egwene would too, but consider that neither Alviarin nor Verin knew of the kinds of inverted masking weaves that we know the Forsaken can use.

 

An Accepted of low perceived potential would be the best way to hide in the Tower: she would have a reasonable amount of freedom, sisters would not expect much from her, and without making any substantial progress she could remain Accepted indefinitely. There is no reason for Mesaana to have any standing in Tower hierarchy because she can easily manipulate very high-ranking sisters behind the scenes.

 

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread also and i agree in part but i think she is hiding as Laras!! 8) think about it she would have a position of control and freedom to go as she wanted. think about how Lanfear was in the waste she jumped around and no one ever saw any thing out of place even though she moved remarkably fast for a woman of her size. the thing that made me start to think something was off with Laras was the way she would stare at Egwene in the Kitchens but never spoke to her. Plus the ability to off any AS with a lil bit of poison would be a nice perk also  ;D

Aaaah the delicate sound of trolling :p

[Dreamwalker]

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone else has pointed this out.

 

The easiest way to evade the Oaths is to not take them. Verin does not tell Egwene that Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, she simply says that one of the Chosen is in the Tower. Alviarin assumed Mesaana was a sister, and maybe Verin and Egwene would too, but consider that neither Alviarin nor Verin knew of the kinds of inverted masking weaves that we know the Forsaken can use.

 

An Accepted of low perceived potential would be the best way to hide in the Tower: she would have a reasonable amount of freedom, sisters would not expect much from her, and without making any substantial progress she could remain Accepted indefinitely. There is no reason for Mesaana to have any standing in Tower hierarchy because she can easily manipulate very high-ranking sisters behind the scenes.

 

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread also and i agree in part but i think she is hiding as Laras!! 8) think about it she would have a position of control and freedom to go as she wanted. think about how Lanfear was in the waste she jumped around and no one ever saw any thing out of place even though she moved remarkably fast for a woman of her size. the thing that made me start to think something was off with Laras was the way she would stare at Egwene in the Kitchens but never spoke to her. Plus the ability to off any AS with a lil bit of poison would be a nice perk also  ;D

 

While I agree that Laras is more than she seems, if you see my earlier post I put a quote from tGS that proves Mesaana has got to be masquerading as an AS (assuming that you trust Graendal to have accurate info, which I do because she's sneaky  ;)).

[Stagger Lee]

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone else has pointed this out.

 

The easiest way to evade the Oaths is to not take them. Verin does not tell Egwene that Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai, she simply says that one of the Chosen is in the Tower. Alviarin assumed Mesaana was a sister, and maybe Verin and Egwene would too, but consider that neither Alviarin nor Verin knew of the kinds of inverted masking weaves that we know the Forsaken can use.

 

An Accepted of low perceived potential would be the best way to hide in the Tower: she would have a reasonable amount of freedom, sisters would not expect much from her, and without making any substantial progress she could remain Accepted indefinitely. There is no reason for Mesaana to have any standing in Tower hierarchy because she can easily manipulate very high-ranking sisters behind the scenes.

 

I confess that I did not read all 39 pages of this thread also and i agree in part but i think she is hiding as Laras!! 8) think about it she would have a position of control and freedom to go as she wanted. think about how Lanfear was in the waste she jumped around and no one ever saw any thing out of place even though she moved remarkably fast for a woman of her size. the thing that made me start to think something was off with Laras was the way she would stare at Egwene in the Kitchens but never spoke to her. Plus the ability to off any AS with a lil bit of poison would be a nice perk also  ;D

 

While I agree that Laras is more than she seems, if you see my earlier post I put a quote from tGS that proves Mesaana has got to be masquerading as an AS (assuming that you trust Graendal to have accurate info, which I do because she's sneaky  ;)).

 

I do not trust Graendal's information. Unless she ferreted out Mesaana's secret identity herself, I would bet against any informant being able to attack that question with more diligence and cunning than Verin did, and Verin could not turn her up. Graendal is apprised of Mesaana's activities because Mesaana's activities are visible through the directives of the Black Ajah, among whom Graendal's agents are probably placed. This statement does not indicate that Mesaana's actual movements are under surveillance.

 

I would think that Mesaana is smart enough to recognize that holding actual rank offers nothing and simply puts her at greater risk of being found out. Graendal probably could never conceive of the self-abnegation required for one of the Chosen to pose as an Accepted; it never occurs to her that Mesaana might not be pretending to be Aes Sedai given her placement in the Tower. The Black Ajah itself demonstrates that it recognizes the wisdom of manipulating powerful individuals rather than simply replacing them with agents, as evidenced by Alviarin's placement as Keeper. (Surely the Black Ajah could install an Amyrlin if it truly wanted to, either by Compelling an existing one, turning her 13/13 style, or simply behind-the-scenes maneuvering.)

 

This silks is a better argument, and one that I am afraid I cannot confute. However, when Alviarin sees Mesaana's true face and still does not recognize her, it might suggest that Mesaana is constantly shrouded in weaves of Illusion, in which case her true clothing is irrelevant. If nobody will see anyway, why not be comfortable?

[Aquarius]

This silks is a better argument, and one that I am afraid I cannot confute. However, when Alviarin sees Mesaana's true face and still does not recognize her, it might suggest that Mesaana is constantly shrouded in weaves of Illusion, in which case her true clothing is irrelevant. If nobody will see anyway, why not be comfortable?

I was under the impression that it would be safer/easier to use Illusion only on the face. I bet it's very difficult to put some illusion on your whole clothes, with all the swirls and movement, and air flows... Besisdes, Illusion is easier when the modifications are the smallest. Hard to change a whole dress, I guess.

Indeed she's constantly shrouded in Illusion, because Alviarin kinda recognise her, but not completly. So for me its a face-only-mask.

[Dreamwalker]

This silks is a better argument, and one that I am afraid I cannot confute. However, when Alviarin sees Mesaana's true face and still does not recognize her, it might suggest that Mesaana is constantly shrouded in weaves of Illusion, in which case her true clothing is irrelevant. If nobody will see anyway, why not be comfortable?

I was under the impression that it would be safer/easier to use Illusion only on the face. I bet it's very difficult to put some illusion on your whole clothes, with all the swirls and movement, and air flows... Besisdes, Illusion is easier when the modifications are the smallest. Hard to change a whole dress, I guess.

Indeed she's constantly shrouded in Illusion, because Alviarin kinda recognise her, but not completly. So for me its a face-only-mask.

 

I agree about the face thing, because even when Alviarin is just near Mesaana she can sometimes see flickers of the dress she's wearing underneath her Illusion of being some black and silver looking demigoddess. She can see this even when she isn't trying to kiss Mesaana's hem (which is where she gets the really good look at her silk dress) so I'd say that trying to change the appearance of your clothing using the OP creates an imperfect illusion at best, so we can conclude that the silks were what Mesaana was wearing in the Tower and that she couldn't be using the Power to make them look like a novice/accepted/servant dress. It makes sense, since skirts will move with any slightest movement you make or any draft that goes by - this would be much harder to perform an Illusion on than on your face.

 

Further, I believe that Mesaana is using a very slight alteration of her face, making the Illusion easy to maintain - I propose that she is only adding the ageless look to her own face. This would explain why Alviarin thought she looked tantalizingly familiar but could not quite recognize her when she saw her true face - you can compare this to people's reactions to Siuan and Leane. Many thought they looked vaguely familiar but could not recognize them for who they were. So in order to evade detection this successfully for this long, I think that Mesaana has been maintaining a very simple Illusion since she has to keep it up all the time. The simpler her deception, the easier to keep it up.

[Aquarius]

Hence she's posing as AS, or she takes off her Accepted dress when she doesn't need it... which you'll admit is far fetched.

[chuckievi]

I would think that Mesaana is smart enough to recognize that holding actual rank offers nothing and simply puts her at greater risk of being found out.

 

Personally I disagree with that assessment.  Aes Sedai have full reign of the tower, Accepted do not.  The argument could be made that in some cases Accepted can get placed an Aes Sedai of a certain Ajah cannot get, and I can buy that.  But the problem here is that any Aes Sedai at any time can commandeer any Accepted to do whatever they want.  That isn't freedom to go about her plots.  As an Accepted she would be expected to attend classes, in some cases teach classes of Novices.  She would be expected to attend Aes Sedai and serve them tea etc like Egwene had to.  So all in all, I just don't personally buy the Accepted > Aes Sedai freedom argument, given in some cases it is true, but I think in the majority it isn't.