A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

People like complications and Casabamelon has quoted the relevant statement.

 

[Aquarius]

What some (but not all) people are inferring from this line is that there is both a way to defeat the "I'm not a darkfriend" swearing, but also a way to defeat the oath rod itself, i.e. never have a sworn oath apply, even though you are holding the rod, someone is channeling spirit into the rod, and you swear an oath.

Well yes, I had read that but I do not see any double meaning in that. "all Aes Sedai had to reswear the Oaths, so you should think of a way to evade them". That' pretty much all I read in this.

 

The biggest hint at a magical way to evade the Oaths would be that we've discussed for ages the fact that AS lie all the time when they don't know, and Brandon seems to hint at something new, not discussed before.

 

Aside from that, yes, theories are fun :)

[Casabamelon]

Well yes, I had read that but I do not see any double meaning in that. "all Aes Sedai had to reswear the Oaths, so you should think of a way to evade them". That' pretty much all I read in this.

 

From what I've seen, a majority of the arguing (not to be confused with discussion) starts between people who read this as you do and people who put emphasis on the fact that B.S. used the phrase "Oath Rod".

 

Aside from that, yes, theories are fun :)

 

Aren't they! :)

[mb]

If she knows it's coming (and she almost certainly did as the blacks in the Tower fled) she could have woven it before hand and inverted it.  The others do not know it is possible and so from their point of view there is no need to look for it.

If the ward exists, Moghedien might have told Egwene about it (if Moghedien knew about it).

Though if Egwene or the others did not know about the ward, they might have noticed some different effect about Mesaana if Mesaana made it.  The tightening of skin I suspect could be noticed by others.  Such a ward might need to prevent all effects; I suspect that it would not be able to prevent only some effects.

 

If such a ward exists, Semirhage and Balthamiel didn't know of it. They were both very smart channellers from the AoL.

The Forsaken could keep various weaves secret from each other, like light-sided characters do.

 

we have evidence of wards doing everything else why not this too?

There are wards against shadowspawn, wards against various creatures, wards against eavesdropping, wards against entrance, wards against others reading, wards against dream interference, wards against channeling.  I do not recall the books telling of any other purpose for wards; the books do not tell of wards against terangreal.  Wards have been shown to attack the things they are against, alert the person who made the ward, or make words disappear; I do not recall the books telling any other function of wards.

Though if this sort of ward exists, it may have limits like a number of the other wards.

 

[Durinax]

Actually I could see that Mesaana would know somehting about it, since as an educator (someone varify that I am not mixing forsaken up again) she would have had access to a oath rod as a educational tool aka she would be able to have access to it in order to show it to students and tell them of consequences, etc.

 

But in every POV when we see someone swear the oaths, they can feel the oath settle on them and give them the sensation of their skin tightening what if she put some kind of shield over herself, inverted, so the oath couldnt settle upon her

[Paerish Swar]

When Nyneave takes the test for Accepted in tGH, I believe Sheriam is a little shocked by her statement that she had channeled while in the ter'angreal.  Sheriam tells Nyneave that when the early Aes Sedai first found the ter'angreal and began testing it, they heavily warded themselves for the sake of their own protection.  The result was that the Aes Sedai either didn't return, or they came out of the ter'angreal stilled or burnt out, not remembering anything that took place while inside.  This resulted in the tradition of sending initiates into the ter'angreal naked and without any wards, because it was the only "safe" way to go through the ter'angreal testing.  (I'm not near my books right now, so maybe somebody could find the exact quote for this?)

 

Consequently, I don't know what the effect of Mesaana trying to ward herself against the Oath Rod would be.  If she had no prior knowledge or experience for exactly what she was doing with (or how she was forming) the ward itself, I would think that she would be putting herself in a very dangerous situation to try such a thing.  We have no direct precedent for thinking that one could defeat the oaths or Oath Rod in this way, so it seems pretty risky to me - not impossible, but certainly risky.

[benny the ball]

 

Before i start i should say i can see how "wobbly" this theory is but i'll give it a bash, thinking outside the box an all.

Corect me if i'm wrong but the OR works around the princeipal of belief.

 

I.e.

The AS belive their telling the truth so can't lie.

The AS belive their in danger before they can use the OP as a weapon (diffrent distances/situations for each AS).

Ect, ect.

 

My point is- What if you don't belive in the OR.

I.e.

1)If you use the OR to stop me causing pain i will simply have someone else do it for me.

2)If you use the OR to stop me killing people i will simply have someone else do it for me.

Ect, ect.

 

Once again my point- If you didn't belive the OR would ultmately stop you, just make life harder doing something would it?

After all AS belive they can't lie hence all the fancy wording they do and how they manuplate other other people to do the stuff they can't.

 

Is it as simple as I don't belive the OR will work and so it just won't work?

 

Go on guys go for your guns.

By the way been lurking for years but only just started posting and love this site. Be gentlen when you whip 'em out. ;D

 

[Paerish Swar]

OK.  I got a copy of tGH and found the quote from Sheriam concerning what I mentioned above.  Here's the whole thing:

 

"It isn't thought necessary to give a warning, since you shouldn't be able to remember it, but. . . . This ter'angreal was found during the Trolloc Wars.  We have the records of its examination in the archives.  The first sister to enter was warded as strongly as she could be, since no one knew what it would do.  She kept her memories, and she channeled the One Power when she was threatened.  And she came out with her abilities burned to nothing, unable to channel, unable even to sence the True Source.  The second to go in was also warded, and she, too, was destroyed in the same way.  The third went unprotected, remembered nothing once she was inside, and returned unharmed.  That is one reason why we send you completely unprotected.  Nyneave, you must not channel inside the ter'angreal again.  I know it is hard to remember anything, but try." (tGH, The Testing)

 

I think this quote opens up a lot of possibilities for hypotheses regarding what might occur if Mesaana tried to ward herself against the Oath Rod.  I'm still leaning towards it being far to dangerous to try (especially since the oaths appear to "attach"/"anchor" themselves to the seat of a channelers very ability to channel - as is evidenced by the fact that the Oath Rod ONLY works on channelers, and how if the individual is stilled or burnt out the oaths automatically leave them.  If there were some big oath vs. ward conflict, I definitely think one would ultimately be risking his or her very ability to channel), but it also appears that warding ones self against ter'angreal was once (and may still be) a common practice. . .so there MIGHT be precedent for warding against the Oath Rod specifically; and, if anyone would know how, it would be Mesaana.

[MikeRiley]

The binding rods were used on criminals in the Age of Legends. The Forsaken would have known of a way to defeat them if a way existed. They would have known how the rods worked and should have been able to come up with a way to block the effects.

 

Maybe they used the mask of mirrors and used a flow of air to hold up the oath rod in such a way that it appeared it was in hand? This would be risky, of course.

 

Perhaps the key is that somebody else was channeling Spirit into the rod - maybe all she had to do was enter the oneness and not touch Saidar. Being clear of emotion in her little void might stop the oaths from settling in. We know channeling the Spirit into it yourself wouldn't do it. I believe Egwene swore her oaths herself.

 

We know you can use the rod to remove oaths, and Spirit has to be channeled in a certain way. If an inverted weave hit it another way, it might cause a temporary malfunction, or cause some unknown safety mechanism to kick into play.

 

Another thought is the number on the rods. We don't know what they were there for exactly, but it seems they might have had different uses. Perhaps the number of oaths you can take with it? Unlikely, but I can see Mesaana taking an oath against eating broken shelled walnuts!

 

 

One more thing, is it possible that the rod won't bind a person who has already been bound by another? I believe the Black Ajah used the same oath rod they used to swear the three oaths with, but they still removed their oaths first so they could swear new ones.

[Sharaman]

Perhaps the key is that somebody else was channeling Spirit into the rod - maybe all she had to do was enter the oneness and not touch Saidar.

 

We've seen the rod used both ways and it seems to work as well. The BA Hunters and Therava forced people to swear oaths while somebody else channeled. The standard As procedure is to channel yourself.

 

One more thing, is it possible that the rod won't bind a person who has already been bound by another? I believe the Black Ajah used the same oath rod they used to swear the three oaths with, but they still removed their oaths first so they could swear new ones.

 

Galina didn't unswear her earlier oaths. She was definitely bound to the oath of obedience the Shaido made her swear on a different rod. The number could just be prison issue/ manufacturing serial nos. 

 

My point is- What if you don't belive in the OR.

I.e.

1)If you use the OR to stop me causing pain i will simply have someone else do it for me.

2)If you use the OR to stop me killing people i will simply have someone else do it for me.

Ect, ect.

 

Once again my point- If you didn't belive the OR would ultmately stop you, just make life harder doing something would it?

After all AS belive they can't lie hence all the fancy wording they do and how they manuplate other other people to do the stuff they can't.

 

Is it as simple as I don't belive the OR will work and so it just won't work?

 

Go on guys go for your guns.

By the way been lurking for years but only just started posting and love this site. Be gentlen when you whip 'em out. ;D

 

The oath rod has a definite physical effect on channelers. If a channeler tries to break an oath sworn on it, she could literally die trying to do something that conflicts the oath. So it may not be a question of belief or willingness. That's why AS try so hard to rationalise stuff that might conflict. The whole "Put myself in danger" to use OP as a weapon etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dagon Thyne]

I've always asumed the Black Ajah has an Oath Rod and removes the 3 Oaths as part of the ceramony of becoming a member.  Remember, we know there is more then one Oath Rod.

[WWWwombat]

Alright so I mentioned way earlier in this thread that the thing about spirit being the only thing you can channel in your sleep was bugging me.  I just thought of an interesting idea.  What would happen if you took the Oaths while in a waking trance such as the one Egwene was taught by the Wise Ones, or the one you go into when using one of the dream ter'angreal that requires channeling?  You can still channel spirit and speak, but most of your awareness is Tel'aran'rhiod.  I don't know if that would necessarily negate the action of the Oath Rod, but I think it would at least do something funky.  This may seem similar to Paerish's thing but I'm talking about a different mechanism.  Something about the fact that the Oath Rod only uses spirit really makes me think Tel'aran'rhiod will be involved and that perhaps because of that, Egwene might figure out the trick.

[Fleety]

Yeah, but the problem with some of these theories (like having a spare oath rod tucked away, or ducking off to Tel'aran'rhiod) is that they reswore the oathes and then immdediatly stated they were not BA.

 

I dont doubt that those kind of theories were/are possible and may be legitimate ways to break the Oath Rod, but not the way that Brandon has hinted.

[mb]

What if you don't belive in the OR.

I.e.

1)If you use the OR to stop me causing pain i will simply have someone else do it for me.

2)If you use the OR to stop me killing people i will simply have someone else do it for me.

Neither of those examples does not indicate that the person does not believe in the Oath Rod since the person is asking someone else to do the action.

Not believe in the Oath Rod would be believe that the sworn oaths are not binding.

 

It seems to me that belief/disbelief applies to the person's actions/speech relating to the oaths.

(First Oath, the person believe that the statement is true.  Second Oath, the person believe that the made thing is not a weapon and/or does not kill.  Third Oath, the person believe that the victim is a Shadowspawn/Darkfriend and/or if the victim is harming self/warder/sister.)

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

i think messy's interest in the tar terangreal is connected to her defeating the oath rod.

 

assuming that there is a connection for argument's sake, what can we deduce?

 

i.e. what can be done in tar to defeat the oath rod in the waking world?

 

one thought i had is, if messy was forewarned about the oath retaking, she enters TAR and channels spirit into a TAR oath rod. 

 

what if she took an oath that the next time she picked up an oath rod, any words that she spoke would have teh opposite meaning to her?

[chuckievi]

Personally I think it involves the way ter'angreal interact with each other, as has been mentioned before in this thread.  I think it is a function of having an inverted flow of spirit being channeled into one of the TAR ter'angreals that disrupts the Oath Rod.

 

That being said, I still think Messy could have taken the Oaths and said with a straight face and within their perimeters that she isn't BA.  The minute I read that in the books I thought that Messy could avoid it, because she is Chosen, not BA.

[WWWwombat]

My impression was that the reason Mesaana wanted the dream ter'angreal was to keep the hall from meeting with Egwene.  Of course, that and her wanting to play with the ter'angreal aren't mutually exclusive.

[seasnake]

I think the answer for this is the Mirror of Mists inverted.  You merely use the mirror to make it look like you took it, and then use air inverted to hold it in place.  Not too difficult.  You need knowledge of inversion, the rest is basic.  You're timing would have to be good, but the Forsaken's job.  If you can't control a mirror and a flow of air at the same time you're probably not that good.

 

Add in any other special effects through the mirror and you're good to go. 

 

The other is the double theory, that Mesaana took a sister's place and has her somewhere nearby under heavy compulsion.  Just hide out for the day and let your dupe go and swear the oaths.  Or for that matter, compulse a member of the kitchen staff, disguise them using the One Power to look like you and then make them go and swear. 

 

I think it's using the power, not merely a psychological trick.  In the Age of Legends they knew about things like inverted weaves so they probably knew what to check to make sure the person was really using the Oath Rod. That would explain why a powerful channeler like Semirhage ran from it in the AoL but Mesaana can avoid it today.  The so-called Aes Sedai don't know about the work-arounds a skilled channeler can use.

 

 

[Sharaman]

I think the answer for this is the Mirror of Mists inverted.  You merely use the mirror to make it look like you took it, and then use air inverted to hold it in place.  Not too difficult.  You need knowledge of inversion, the rest is basic.  You're timing would have to be good, but the Forsaken's job.  If you can't control a mirror and a flow of air at the same time you're probably not that good.

Add in any other special effects through the mirror and you're good to go. 

 

Touching the MoM breaks the illusion. What you're suggesting if I'm getting it right is, she creates an invisible inverted flow of air to actually hold the rod, while at the same time she extends an illusory hand (also inverted weaves) that looks as though it holds the rod? Then she channels a visible non-inverted thread of spirit into the Rod and does her speaking?

Complicated, no idea whether it can be done without looking odd or breaking the illusion.

She'd have to make sure that her real hand was invisible, that the false hand joined her shoulder at the right place, moved perfectly naturally, etc. She's a skilled channeler sure, but not necessarily a mime artist or contortionist. Also the person handing her the rod mustn't touch the false hand illusion and break it by accident. Or wonder why she couldn't feel fingers. BTW even if the weaves are invisible, a flow of air dense enough to hold the rod may not be invisible itself. It would refract light slightly. (Think of Suian's pale, almost invisible air-knife on the boat from Shienar to Tar Valon in TGH)

Finally even if all this is true, we dunno what happens if spirit is channeled into the Rod when it isn't in physical contact.

It might start sparking or saying "error-reboot, channeler not found".

 

The other is the double theory, that Mesaana took a sister's place and has her somewhere nearby under heavy compulsion.  Just hide out for the day and let your dupe go and swear the oaths. 

Yes, the Harry Potter- Mad Eye Moody Polyjuice solution. Several people including me have suggested it. Should work, if she's kept the original AS alive. 

 

Or for that matter, compulse a member of the kitchen staff, disguise them using the One Power to look like you and then make them go and swear. 

 

The kichen staff has channelers? Who can channel spirit into the Rod and wince convincingly as the oath settles into them?

 

I think it's using the power, not merely a psychological trick.  In the Age of Legends they knew about things like inverted weaves so they probably knew what to check to make sure the person was really using the Oath Rod. That would explain why a powerful channeler like Semirhage ran from it in the AoL but Mesaana can avoid it today.  The so-called Aes Sedai don't know about the work-arounds a skilled channeler can use.

 

This is a possibility. The AoL knew the possible workarounds. This age nobody does. 

Brandon's remark does make it likely that there's enough info for readers to know though.

 

[yoniy0]

If that's true, it can't be any weave that negates the effects of the OR (which I find unlikely anyway).

 

I think we're looking at this the wrong way. I'm fond of using Occam's razor, so let's see. First, would it be possible for her to just walk in the room, hold the OR, weave spirit into the digits and take the Oaths, then say that she isn't a DF/BA? Hmm, wait a second. I think even those of us that don't want to see this being used as a solution in the book would agree that it is theoretically possible (I mean that she could do that, should she choose to).

Considering that, why would she go to any extreme measures to deceive the OR in any other way? Yes, a way might exist, and yes, Mesaana has a unique position to know any such way. But why would she bother?

So we could/should continue to speculate on what ways there are to beat the OR (those of us who believe BS's comment hint to such a way existing will insist, I assume), but should we believe that Mesaana would attempt any such trickery? No, we shouldn't.

[MikeRiley]

She wouldn't want the side effects of the oath rod. It'd be like stepping into a bear trap and hoping it was broken. The oath against lying and the oath against violence would ruin her even temporarily. She would avoid the oath rod if she didn't know a way to beat it.

[Shadow Rider]

I haven't been through the entire thread but has anyone discussed the possibility that Messana is not posing as an Aes Sedai but as an Accepted? Only the Aes Sedai were tested with the oath rod not the Novices or the Accepted....if Messana is posing as Accepted it would give her a lot of freedom to move around in the White Tower.

[yoniy0]

She wouldn't want the side effects of the oath rod. It'd be like stepping into a bear trap and hoping it was broken. The oath against lying and the oath against violence would ruin her even temporarily. She would avoid the oath rod if she didn't know a way to beat it.

I don't see your point. Semirhage was bound by a Binder at one time, no permanant damage was done. It was something she wanted to get rid of, but it didn't cause a devastating sensation (and it's especially easy for Mesaana since she would need to spend a couple of days at most before removing the Oaths).

 

I haven't been through the entire thread but has anyone discussed the possibility that Messana is not posing as an Aes Sedai but as an Accepted? Only the Aes Sedai were tested with the oath rod not the Novices or the Accepted....if Messana is posing as Accepted it would give her a lot of freedom to move around in the White Tower.

It has been discussed, and rebutted. Graendal was keeping taps on Mesaana, and she noted that Mesaana was masquerading as an AS.

[Sharaman]

Semirhage was never bound by the Rod. She joined GLoD to avoid that fate.

 

[Stevros]

If she is clever then she may have been closely watching one or two other sisters (looking at their habits etc) so she can pass as them if required, this could have been useful in many ways especially when trying to sow seeds of discontent in the tower. Then all you have to do is wait for one of those to have taken the oaths again then discreetly come and remove them and take there place, then who she was masquerading as is known as someone who ran away ie a Black, but suspicion overlooks who she is now so it doesn't matter who they are looking for, so watch out for any slight changes in personalities at the start of the next book.