A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Swigaro]

To me, it comes down to this.  The important issue isn’t whether or not she would be able to make the statement, “I am not BA,” it is why she would willingly let herself be bound.  That, to me, is what makes the contention that she could simply word twist lack credibility.  With all of the POVs from forsaken regarding the lengths to which they would go to avoid binding, I simply can not accept that she would willingly let herself be bound, for any reason, if she could avoid it.  She can not be certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt that she could get a hold of the OR to remove said oaths.  It just seems to be an outrageous risk.  I just don’t see her doing it.  She had prior knowledge of the purge.  She could have escaped.  She could simply have remained in the tower and assumed another disguise.  Why would she run the risk of being irrevocably bound? 

[bronnt]

To me, it comes down to this.  The important issue isn’t whether or not she would be able to make the statement, “I am not BA,” it is why she would willingly let herself be bound.  That, to me, is what makes the contention that she could simply word twist lack credibility.  With all of the POVs from forsaken regarding the lengths to which they would go to avoid binding, I simply can not accept that she would willingly let herself be bound, for any reason, if she could avoid it.  She can not be certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt that she could get a hold of the OR to remove said oaths.  It just seems to be an outrageous risk.  I just don’t see her doing it.  She had prior knowledge of the purge.  She could have escaped.  She could simply have remained in the tower and assumed another disguise.  Why would she run the risk of being irrevocably bound? 

 

I agree completely.  Some prefer the supposed simplicity of the word-twisting, regardless of any arguments made against it.

 

The real issue is that she's running a huge risk if someone randomly asked  questions like "Hey, when was the last time you had tea with Semirhage?" or

"Did you ever feed children to Trollocs?" or

"How's Shayol Ghul this time of year?" or

"Would you happen to where Demandred is?" or

"It really sucks being raped by a Myrdraal, doesn't it?"

 

Or any of 1000 other questions where she can't simply evade the answer.  Then, she'd be bound not to use the OP as a weapon, so she'd well and truly screwed.

[saidarisnowtainted]

what if she entered TAR ahead of time and swore an oath on the specific oath rod used in the waking world by the AS?

 

what if, using this rod's reflection, she swears an oath stating: "i swear that this oath is the only oath upon which this rod may bind me" or something to the effect that "i swear that this oath is the last oath that this road may bind me to"  or that no further oaths may be sworn upon this rod to bind her.

 

?

[Swigaro]

By doing so, she would still be bound, and suffer the life shortening effect.  Maybe I am being stubborn, but I can't see Messana doing anything that would leave her bound, not even for a moment.

[thewalrus777]

I'm still a believer of her direct connection with the DO offering her protection from certain aspects of the Power, mainly oaths. Seeing as I would imagine that nothing would superseed a DIRECT binding from the DO himself.

[Swigaro]

That may be true, but BS's quote suggests that there is something anyone can do to beat the oath rod, not just forsaken.  I don't think it can be as simple as the oaths to the DO superseding the effects of the oath rod.

[thewalrus777]

That may be true, but BS's quote suggests that there is something anyone can do to beat the oath rod, not just forsaken.  I don't think it can be as simple as the oaths to the DO superseding the effects of the oath rod.

 

But see, it's not just any oath. It's a binding that comes from the DO himself. It's not like those silly oaths that DF's and BA make. We're talking about getting touched by the 'Big Evil' himself.

[saidarisnowtainted]

i had the impression (and may be wrong) that one's life is only shortened while bound.  if a chaneller is released their aging will proceed naturally again.

 

what harm would messy face to swear in TAR the night before to defeat the waking world oath rod.  she could then reenter TAR and remove the oath--that is if the initial oath provided that the only subsequent oath that would affect her would be an oath to remove all prior oaths on that rod.

 

what would one day of binding do to her?  also only one oath would be on her, not three.  we do see evidence that each oath increases the sensation.

[Swigaro]

It isn't that simple.  I know the question about TAR oath rods was posed to and answered by RJ, but I don't think that we should take that to mean that it is common knowledge to the characters in the series.  Frankly, the fact that he gave such a clear and concice answer suggest to me that using a OR in TAR to add or remove anything isn't going to happen.  If he were going to use that he would have RAFO'd the question.  We have the benifit of the creators word to know that you can add and remove oaths with a rod in TAR, Messanna does not.  If you were her, knowing that if you were wrong, you would end up bound, with your life cut in half, would you try it out.  Again, she could have left the tower.  She could have dropped her disguise and simply stayed within the tower.  With the latter option, the tower AS would have assumed that whomever she was disguised as was captured.  Why then risk being bound?  The Forsaken have reflected many times on what they would do to avoid being bound.  They always speak of it with finality.  The threat of binding drove several forsaken to the DO.  If any of them knew of the TAR trick, they wouldn't have had such fear of binding.  I think that RJ gave us that tidbit, but never intended to use it in the books...

[saidarisnowtainted]

but we dont know who posessed the binders and whether they could be warded from appearing in TAR in the age of light.  that could explain why the forsaken couldnt defeat them during the war of power.

 

also, considering that you can use a binder to remove an oath that you previously swored, logic follows that you can also preemptively use the binder to avoid being bound subsequently.

 

i think access to the binders in the war of power in teh waking world and TAR explains why knowing the way to defeat a binder by the forsaken was useless b/c they couldnt employ the tactic back then.

 

maybe the binders being numbered has something to do with it.

[Swigaro]

I agree that whatever method Messanna used was probably common knowledge in the AOL.  At that time, I suspect anyone who was about to be bound was likely shilded and searched thouroghly for any inverted weaves.  This is not something that was done during the BA purge.  I also agree that access to the rods was secure enough to make it effectively impossible to get one.  I think the whole dream rod was not ever thought of during the AoL...

 

As far as making an oath not to let any other rod bind you... I don't think it would work.  That would be like making the oath effect the rod, not the one bound.  At best, I would think that such an oath would simply make it impossible for Messana to make any other oath while holding any other rod.  I think it would cause a bit of suspicion if an AS simply didn't say anything while holding the rod.

[saidarisnowtainted]

I agree that whatever method Messanna used was probably common knowledge in the AOL.  At that time, I suspect anyone who was about to be bound was likely shilded and searched thouroghly for any inverted weaves.  This is not something that was done during the BA purge.  I also agree that access to the rods was secure enough to make it effectively impossible to get one.  I think the whole dream rod was not ever thought of during the AoL...

 

As far as making an oath not to let any other rod bind you... I don't think it would work.  That would be like making the oath effect the rod, not the one bound.  At best, I would think that such an oath would simply make it impossible for Messana to make any other oath while holding any other rod.  I think it would cause a bit of suspicion if an AS simply didn't say anything while holding the rod.

 

what if you can preemptively establish a time-limit upon which your oaths will be bound?  what if she simply swore ahead of time that the next three oaths she swore would only be binding for one second.?

 

i dont think we have addressed this yet.

[Casabamelon]

also, considering that you can use a binder to remove an oath that you previously swored, logic follows that you can also preemptively use the binder to avoid being bound subsequently.

(emphasis mine)

 

That's like saying since you can rip off a band-aid after it's on, you can prevent a band-aid from sticking to your skin.

 

It makes no logical sense.

[Casabamelon]

I agree that whatever method Messanna used was probably common knowledge in the AOL.  At that time, I suspect anyone who was about to be bound was likely shilded and searched thouroghly for any inverted weaves.  This is not something that was done during the BA purge.  I also agree that access to the rods was secure enough to make it effectively impossible to get one.  I think the whole dream rod was not ever thought of during the AoL...

 

As far as making an oath not to let any other rod bind you... I don't think it would work.  That would be like making the oath effect the rod, not the one bound.  At best, I would think that such an oath would simply make it impossible for Messana to make any other oath while holding any other rod.  I think it would cause a bit of suspicion if an AS simply didn't say anything while holding the rod.

 

what if you can preemptively establish a time-limit upon which your oaths will be bound?  what if she simply swore ahead of time that the next three oaths she swore would only be binding for one second.?

 

i dont think we have addressed this yet.

 

I think you're getting to far in the "Genie" wishes, trying to outsmart the Genie with a clever wish. You're talking about an oath. A binder works until it's unbound.

[Glowbal]

I agree that whatever method Messanna used was probably common knowledge in the AOL.  At that time, I suspect anyone who was about to be bound was likely shilded and searched thouroghly for any inverted weaves.  This is not something that was done during the BA purge.  I also agree that access to the rods was secure enough to make it effectively impossible to get one.  I think the whole dream rod was not ever thought of during the AoL...

 

As far as making an oath not to let any other rod bind you... I don't think it would work.  That would be like making the oath effect the rod, not the one bound.  At best, I would think that such an oath would simply make it impossible for Messana to make any other oath while holding any other rod.  I think it would cause a bit of suspicion if an AS simply didn't say anything while holding the rod.

 

what if you can preemptively establish a time-limit upon which your oaths will be bound?  what if she simply swore ahead of time that the next three oaths she swore would only be binding for one second.?

 

i dont think we have addressed this yet.

 

I think you're getting to far in the "Genie" wishes, trying to outsmart the Genie with a clever wish. You're talking about an oath. A binder works until it's unbound.

 

Not to mention that they first had to break all other oaths. So even if it could work, it wouldn't since the oath is broken.

[mb]

Any time limit for any oath I doubt could be set before the oath is sworn.

Or if a time limit could be set before swearing an oath, I take the Oath Rod was being guarded by non-Blacks until the White Tower did the event.

 

Like I posted before, I take Mesaana was bound to the 3 Oaths when she told that she was not a darkfriend.

If she beated the Oath Rod while telling that, it would have been through believing that she was not a darkfriend.

 

[bronnt]

Not to mention that they first had to break all other oaths. So even if it could work, it wouldn't since the oath is broken.

 

I was wondering how long it would take before someone pointed this out.  It was so obvious I was sure that it wouldn't take a day for someone else realized this.  It's a gaping hole right from the start.

 

Anyway, if there were some sort of prize for being the poster who ended the madness, you just won.

[mb]

The forswearing was in my mind during some of the times I posted.

 

The madness might not end; there might be others that would post some other theory.

 

[AnimusMessor]

I think that the Oath Rod has the sort of same flaw as the Lie Detecting machine. A lie detector can also be won as long as you BELIEVE the answer you are answering is correct. You can get around the machine by asking yourself a question in your head and answering it out loud. So if someone was to ask you ¨Did you kill so and so?¨ and you answer No, all you would have to do is ask yourself a question after the person asked you a question. So you could of asked yourself, if your a man, ¨ Am I a women?¨ and answer out loud ¨No¨and it would show that your not lying on the detector.

 

So what Im guessing is that when Messana had to retake the oaths, she got around it by asking herself a question in her head and answering it out loud. Best thing I got so far.

[Durinax]

I think that the Oath Rod has the sort of same flaw as the Lie Detecting machine. A lie detector can also be won as long as you BELIEVE the answer you are answering is correct. You can get around the machine by asking yourself a question in your head and answering it out loud. So if someone was to ask you ¨Did you kill so and so?¨ and you answer No, all you would have to do is ask yourself a question after the person asked you a question. So you could of asked yourself, if your a man, ¨ Am I a women?¨ and answer out loud ¨No¨and it would show that your not lying on the detector.

 

So what Im guessing is that when Messana had to retake the oaths, she got around it by asking herself a question in her head and answering it out loud. Best thing I got so far.

when you swear oaths you do not answer a question you swear an oath, big difference

[mnwhiterose]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned (because I'm tired and don't want to go through 27 pages of posts), but what about that one Black AS the Tower Hunters caught. They made her swear again to the first oath and to obey the TH, but when one of the TH's said "Say it ain't so...say Elaida's not Black" she couldn't speak and she was practically choking. She believed Elaida was Black since she knew everything the Supreme Council was doing. She couldn't obey both commands. So, she couldn't tell a lie, even though she believed it to be true.

 

Again, don't know if this was discussed. I think it was Talene that was the captured Black Sister. Don't have the books in front of me.  I just always liked that scene though.

[Sharaman]

Don't know if this has already been mentioned (because I'm tired and don't want to go through 27 pages of posts), but what about that one Black AS the Tower Hunters caught. They made her swear again to the first oath and to obey the TH, but when one of the TH's said "Say it ain't so...say Elaida's not Black" she couldn't speak and she was practically choking. She believed Elaida was Black since she knew everything the Supreme Council was doing. She couldn't obey both commands. So, she couldn't tell a lie, even though she believed it to be true.

 

Again, don't know if this was discussed. I think it was Talene that was the captured Black Sister. Don't have the books in front of me.  I just always liked that scene though.

 

You're mixing up two women.

The Hunters caught one of the 10 moles from Salidar, Zerah, who was not Black, made her reswaer the Three oaths and a fourth oath of obedience. They  almost killed her by giving her orders that conflicted the oaths. Zerah believes that the Reds set up Logain as a false Dragon. Pevara (who is Red) tells her to say that it's a lie and Zerah starts choking because of the conflict. 

 

The hunters later also caught Talene Minly, who was a Green sitter in the Tower and was Black. Talene thought Elaida was BA. 

There was no conflict because  Talene genuinely believed this.

[AnimusMessor]

I think that the Oath Rod has the sort of same flaw as the Lie Detecting machine. A lie detector can also be won as long as you BELIEVE the answer you are answering is correct. You can get around the machine by asking yourself a question in your head and answering it out loud. So if someone was to ask you ¨Did you kill so and so?¨ and you answer No, all you would have to do is ask yourself a question after the person asked you a question. So you could of asked yourself, if your a man, ¨ Am I a women?¨ and answer out loud ¨No¨and it would show that your not lying on the detector.

 

So what Im guessing is that when Messana had to retake the oaths, she got around it by asking herself a question in her head and answering it out loud. Best thing I got so far.

when you swear oaths you do not answer a question you swear an oath, big difference

 

I didnt mean that when she swore the oaths on the oath rod she asked herself a question. What im saying is that she did in fact swear on the Oath Rod. So when they asked her ´are you a darkfriend?´ Messana could of just asked herself a question in her mind like, ¨am i a man¨ then answer out loud ¨No¨. So essentially, shes answering her own question and not Egwenes about being a darkfriend. Its a little confusing i know, but as the Whites might say, very logical.

[Shadow Rider]

I think Messana just said I'm not Black Ajah, then she would not be lieing because she's not Black Ajah, she a Chosen, unless they insisted she say I'm not a darkfriend...I think "Darkfriend and Friend of the Dark are the same.

[MikeRiley]

She might have said that, but there's no way she let herself be bound by the three oaths. She'd have had a death wish if so.