The Luckers Official tGS Review (Full of Spoilers and Hubris)

[dbo -WoT-]

Too drunk to respond to any of this, but please keep in mind that my review covered more than Cadsuane.

Haha yes. Have a Merry Christmas. If it wasn't Christmas, I'd address more points than the first one that came to my mind (as I'm sure others would too). Seeing as it is, I'm about to leave and enjoy the Holidays.

[Bobbun]

Very good review.  The character summaries mostly match my impressions as well. 

 

I felt the the scene with Beslan and Tuon was particularly good from the point of underscoring Tuon's interest in justice and fairness.  We already knew it, but it served well to reinforce the point.  She clearly does follow in the footsteps of Hawkwing himself--justice for the common people, vengeance for rebellion, and disdain for those who can channel.  A strong contrast with Suroth, who had no ambitions that were not purely personal.

 

I actually disagree. Cadsuane is a woman who bullies, not a bully. She only does it when its effective for her purpose, not because she enjoys crushing people or anything. It's a subtle distinction, but a significant one.

 

Irrespective, that's not the point I was making. Whether she is a bully or not, she lost subtlety and skill in her bullying. Consider the scene after Rand kills Semirhage--it almost directly parallels the first scene where she meets Rand. She comes in uncertain of him and tries to guage his state. Then she was clever and crafty, adjusting her responses to get a rise from him, and studying that rise. This time she just bulled on stupidly, seeming startled when he reacts badly.

 

And more significantly, the point I was making is that even if you hate Cadsuane this doesn't serve. Making her an idiot in order that someone can call her an idiot is in no way as gratifying as having her being her usual strong self, and still pulling her up.

 

I maintain that scene with Tam and Cadsuane could have been one of the most amazing in the series, but because Cadsuane was cheapened, so too was the pay off from having Tam shoot her down.

 

Cadsuane has, from the beginning, served to show the flaws that nearly all Aes Sedai have in their thinking on the Dragon Reborn.  She continues to do so in The Gathering Storm.  Whether they call it control, guidance, or advice, nearly all Aes Sedai, including Cadsuane, believe that Rand must be controlled for the good of the world.  This level of control is, of course, impossible, as Moiraine expresses in a conversation with Siuan in The Great Hunt, Chapter 5, The Shadow in Shienar.

 

Rand can be influenced, and it may be possible to mitigate his effects, but he can not be influenced in a way that changes the essential outcome of what he is destined to do.  Rand is ruled by his destiny with an iron fist, and if he has no way of changing it, it's safe to say that meddling Aes Sedai can't change it either.  Moiraine does eventually come to the correct conclusion of how to gain what gains can be made with Rand (when she remembered how to control saidar--The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 15, What Can be Learned in Dreams), though, and it's a key realization that has evaded Cadsuane so far.

 

It's telling that Moiraine's relationship with Rand parallels the relationship that the Wise Ones have with him.  Like all Aes Sedai, including Moiraine, the Wise Ones seek to have influence with Rand.  However, like Moiraine but unlike other Aes Sedai, they don't seek to keep him from his destiny and they don't attempt to override his decisions and so Rand accepts them.  This allows them to continue to pursue their goal of mitigating what can be mitigated.

 

Cadsuane's failure should have been inevitable, and while the way it was handled in The Gathering Storm was perhaps less than perfect, I would have been much more disappointed if it had not happened at all.

 

[Cybertrolloc]

Depends on where Perrin's storyline goes before he meets back up with Rand and how much more plot Rand has before TG, as it would have been more effective to end the book with dark Rand imo (though the "To Shayol Ghul" line came a bit late for that). Perhaps end that arc with Cads' I have an idea--moving the Graendal nuking up in that plotline?

 

I guess something had to be done with Mat if he's going to Caemlyn first, since that puts him into Elayne's things all wrapped up for TG storyline of despair. Hinderstrap doesn't work for me, not an effective use of Mat. Depends on how the Finn-world trip goes, ending on a "hey, what's up Mo?" would be decent.

 

Egwene's arc was fine, agree on Lucker's points (especially people get dumb around Eg). There's more play in how it could be handled than others (contained to TV, or at least not affecting other storylines much), could have been back-burnered and done more like her KoD montage I guess.

 

Obvious misses: the chapter where Rand and Tuon meet should have been "Death of Tuon." Balefire doesn't work that way ;)

[Crael123]

I care what Luckers thinks.    good review

[Luckers]

The whole thing with Semihage (spelling) breaking over a spanking? Does that mean that Egwene is 20 times the woman that Cadsuane and Semi are.

 

The logic of it made sense to me. It wasn't the spanking itself that made Semi crack, it was the humiliation--and perhaps more than that, the surprise and shock too.

 

I think whether a reader thinks Cadsuane was the same or less skilled and crafty in her "bullying/leading" doesn't diminish the Tam/Cadsuane scene at all.

 

That's not really what I meant--the readers sour feelings might skew their reading of that scene, but it'd be individual to them, not to the readership as a whole.

 

I was referring more to the simple drama of it. Cadsuane behaves like an idiot, picking Tam up with the power. This enables Tam to call her an idiot. All of which is mildly gratifying--Caddy gets called out by Tam and we're all happy. The problem is its a contrived situation. Brandon has Caddy act the bully in that specific situation so Tam can call her out for being a bully--in that specific situation. He should have instead had Cadsuane act like Cadsuane--act, in fact, as the most graceful and intelligent version of Cadsuane depicted yet--and have Tam call Cadsuane down for being Cadsuane.

 

I like Cadsuane. She's probably my favourite character. But if you're going to have her called out then by damn do it properly.

 

I, as many others do, have always disliked Cadsuane’s character. I dislike her for the simple reason she thinks she can guide Rand. True, she may have more experience than almost every other person living, if not every other, but she is going to use her own methods to guide Rand. Whether or not she is crafty or subtle, that doesn’t change that, over the books she is present in, she was continually leading Rand in the wrong direction. Their personalities conflict too much. Instead of adapting to the subject at hand, she tests and prods at him to see how he will react. Then based on what she discovers about him, she goads him in the direction she wants. Whether she is crafty in her testing or not, we know Rand doesn’t want to be tested. You can argue the scenes would have flowed differently if she retained her tact in TGS. However, I don’t think that would have influenced her final scene at all. Either way, she was going to eventually lead Tam to Rand. I knew this was coming long before I read this book. Many others will probably agree that Tam seemed the obvious and only “tool” Cadsuane could use to place Rand back on track. However, I was vastly wrong on thinking Tam would be the feather that would finally break “dark Rand’s” back and cause him to start avalanche-ing in the right direction. It was, instead, Cadsuane. Sure, Tam was the catalyst, but Rand was finally so fed up with Cadsuane trying to control him that he finally lost in when he saw her control extending beyond him to his father. HIS FATHER. We all know how Rand feels about Tam after leaving the Two Rivers in tEotW. This is what finally drove Rand so insane that he was “pushed out the other side,” so to say. This, and the Semirhage/Min scene of course. Anyways, after seeing his son go off the loony end, of course Tam is going to confront Cadsuane. She was meant to be that feather all along. Sure, you can argue the scene, again, may have flowed differently. This doesn’t change the power of that scene. Tam, a father standing up for HIS son, finally putting Cadsuane in her place. She needed it. It was going to happen. Whether or not the words would have flowed differently doesn’t change Tam finally rebuking the person who had actually broken his son. You may like or dislike the words that flowed from Cadsuane, depending on your personal feelings towards Cadsuane, but the meat and power of that scene was seeing Cadsuane finally being set down by Tam. I don’t see Cadsuane being able to craftily dig and probe at a furious Tam. The build up in TGS may not be the best, but the end result is the same. Cadsuane was bullying Rand. Deftly or not, it wouldn’t change the way Tam reacted to it. Tam didn’t care about her craftiness or subtlety; Tam cared about his son.

 

I agree--not with your opinion on Cadsuane. She's my favourite character, and is, in my opinion, not only justified in her attempts to guide Rand, but necessary. That characters are struggling to manipulate the man in whose hands the fate of the world lies doesn't irritate me--when they're genuinely trying to help, as opposed to being self-serving or just plain throwing their weight around. Cadsuane in my opinion is exactly that. She has integrity, and when she bullies Rand she does it was a specific purpose in mind. In effect she is not so much a bully, as she is a woman who bullies, if you can understand the destinction I'm trying to make.

 

But that's all irrelevant. Personal opinion on the portrayal of character, and one we're not likely to agree on. But I DO agree that Brandon still achieved the same ends. I was never saying that the story was off--just that Cadsuane was. I've explained above the ways in which I think that was detrimental to the story--but mostly it was just dissapointing to see my favourite character portrayed in such a bad light.

 

I probably won't speak much more on Caddy unless someone raises a distinct new point, but yes, I just wanted to explain myself. I may love Caddy as a charecter, but love her or hate her I think the way she was portrayed was counter-productive.  :)

 

I felt the the scene with Beslan and Tuon was particularly good from the point of underscoring Tuon's interest in justice and fairness.  We already knew it, but it served well to reinforce the point.  She clearly does follow in the footsteps of Hawkwing himself--justice for the common people, vengeance for rebellion, and disdain for those who can channel.  A strong contrast with Suroth, who had no ambitions that were not purely personal.

 

And its another step in her changing her thinking--coming to see things from Beslan's point of view, allowing his oaths and understanding why they need to be allowed. These things will stand her well when issues with the sul'dam come out.

 

 

[Teslan]

The logic of it breaking semirhage was fine, the speed with which it happened bemused me. 

 

  A few smacks to the bottom and she'll eat beans off the floor? Felt like a massive breaking in one go, I'd have expected her to go slowly, in increments. Losing her poise and self image a little piece at a time as Aes Sedai treated her with less and less respect.

 

Just my opinion though.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Was exactly my opinion, far too much time wasted by BS in building her up and trying out different techniques compared to the actual breaking of her.

 

Very sexual scene though and hats off to BS for exposing his and RJ's shared fantasies to vividly for us.

[Diederichos]

I think that Cadsuane is one of those characters that you either like and, not to sound too arrogant, understand or don't like and dismiss out of hand. Which is great to have a character like that, too many redeemable characters around in books and tv and movies to not like the genuinely polarizing ones.

[ragnareau]

Overall, I think your review is basically correct.

 

Most of the failures in the book come in the form of the tertiary characters who are often not used enough or worse are used haphazardly to force a reaction by a main character.

 

 

MAT

 

The most obvious case poor secondary characters was with Mat’s thread.  I honestly didn’t find Mat’s over-the-top attitude to be that crazy, just forced.  Mat has always overreacted to manipulation and fate forcing his path.  But Mat is defined, more then any other major player, by the cast of characters he surrounds himself with and his interaction with them.  Talmanes and Thom just didn’t work, nor did Hinterslap.

 

Thom is a confidant and sometimes-mentor.  Did RJ or Brandon forget this character has always moved to action when he had a purpose?  And now with Elayne moving to the Lion Throne and Moiraine in danger (not to mention a list of AS names to take care of), Thom decides to be a sulky old man?  He would be manipulating Mat to make triple-time to Caemlyn and the ToG.

 

EGWENE

 

Great story arc overall, and probably the best tertiary character interaction.  Now much of that has to do with the fact that most of those characters (tower AS) were unknown quantities.  But Suian held up fairly well in this thread too.

 

As others have pointed out though I was a bit disappointed by her not breaking with the concept of the Oath Rod.  Much of her character growth came from the Aiel and they would think the need for a forced binding to an oath to be a mockery.  You either have the honor to follow the oath or you don’t.  In fact, much of Egwene’s strength in the story comes from her struggle to follow those oaths without being bound.

 

RAND

 

Some great character movement for Rand.  But another player who suffered greatly from those around him being forced to act a certain way despite books and books of character development to the contrary.  Nynaeve was the only exception.

 

I agree that Cadsuane was written incorrectly, but only for her final scene with Tam.  Her buildup until then still seemed fairly accurate with a focus on helping Rand, yet with a diminishing set of tools that could cause a reaction by him.  Tam was her last desperation attempt.  But nothing should have caused her to use the OP on Tam al’Thor as it would be pointless to do so.  Cadsuane does nothing without it having a distinct reason.  That weave of Air was done simply to allow Tam to act defiant (and he had more then enough reason for that after his meeting with Rand already).

 

The meeting between Rand and Tam was decent but not fully what I expected.  The nervousness of each was well done, but too little was seen of Tam’s reaction to finally seeing his son wounded and broken.

 

Min though was completely underused, if only as the best “thermometer” on how off the deep end Rand has gone.  Nynaeve may have been his conscience in this book but it has always been Min who was his anchor to humanity.  She should have been more direct and forecful in her attempts to interact with him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Conclusions

 

I thought this was a really solid addition to the series with some of the most amazing moments from the entire series within it. In particular I was happy to be proven wrong in several of my expectations, and INSANELY glad that there were surprises that I didn't even have the slightest idea were coming. My problems were few, and usually nitpicky--which says something about the quality of the book in itself.

 

Thank you Brandon. Keep up the good work!

 

Great, great review - particularly for being so succinct with what could have been epic. I agree on most points and am looking forward to the time after the New Year for my own re-read... I was really struck with how clumsily Cadsuane was handled (wasn't aware Brandon had issues with her though), and I agree wholeheartedly on Egwene's stand being one of the most iconic moments of the series. In fact, I've absolutely loved her entire arc ever since Salidar.

 

Never have I anticipated a book so much as ToM... not even tGS to be honest. Brandon really put for an exemplary effort and restored a faith I had lost that this series would ever be finished in the manner it deserved.

 

Gotta throw this out there, though: realise, realising and realisations all actually have 'z's in them.  :-*

[NetSlider]

I really could not agree more. Especially on Cad and Mat parts. As far as other good side characters, I thought Ilturaldo was outstanding. Another was Thom, I thought BS got him pretty well.

 

***I keep on mis-spelling the names! That's what happens when you did not read the real book in years and instead listen to audio book. Sorry guys.

[jadelollipop]

I should probably reread TGS  before commenting but here goes anyway. Overall I thought Brandon did a grand job and the final installments are in good hands. I do hope we get more of the reveal of Morgase in ToM (for some insane reason I thought she would be the one sent to Rand. Was much happier seeing Tam (duh of course his father what was I thinking :) ) I was really worried that Rand would kill Tam and such an event would have made the actual death of Min small potatoes.  I was more annoyed at Min abandoning Rand and joining Cadsuane than I was at Cadsuane herself. Was glad that Nynaeve began to realize that Rand more than she had thought even though he was at a low point and discounted Hurin,Tam and Lan. Thought Tuon (Fortuona) was very well done. I did not think she was repeating her actions in KoD but was realizing how much more of what Mat knew/said was true --Trollocs for example. I am waiting for the Snake/Fox people in ToM  --will they tell Mat more  he seemed to get more from them than most before. I understand that Mat may have been a trifle off but I think it was because Talmanes was more vocal... Mat complaining about marriage (and Tuon leaving) but to the point that Talmanes said he probably did so while sleeping. I did not have problems with the Hinderstrap storyline nor the backstories when searching for Verin

LOVED LOVED LOVED the Verin reveal. I wondered if one of her alternate lives had been as Amyrlin (sp?)

will check back later as I see my grandson moving the study into this room  gotta go

[moroten]

Great review Luckers. I have finally had the chance to read tGS and can now finaly read these boards :p. I agree most of your review and I the one and only thing that annoyed me some extent in the book was the portait of Mat and his friends.

 

It just didnt seem like Mats way to talk and certainly not like Talmanes, I've never had the feeling he was the kind of guy that rode and talked to mere soldiers. And the officer that didnt want to leave his aunt...all together it was a personality we all recognized cause we have seen them in movies and such but it werent the personalities of those characters altho we did see true Mat pop up from now and then. But I have to say even if the humour wasnt Mat it was still really fun read at some points.

 

The town, dont recall the name, was actually very well written of how wrong it was, you sensed it immediatly and had no idea what was going to happen, too bad it got somewhat spoiled in the next chapter with how Mat and Talmaes react to the whole thing.

 

Egwene fighting the seanchan...ICONIC, completly agree. Even though I hate Egwene cause I think she is blind by her own choice to be blind at certain areas I loved her most of the time in this book.

[deathgate]

I think everyone is not taking into consideration how events made characters act differently than usual. Min was almost strangled by Rand and by being present in the last book almost got him killed. She now knows hew was right about not taking her every where and she hates it. Cadsuane has lived for 300 years for one thing and has to now think she has blown it and the whole world. I can forgive her acting a little out of character for that. Mat and Tuon both are a little off because neither wants to admit they are in love. They both had foretellings that they would get married but nothing to indicate they would like it. It really changes who they are. I will be very interested to one day see if we all are blaming Brandon for some of these changes being too much only to find out RJ was responsible for some/most.

[wotjunkie]

with Caddy what we saw, at least how i read it was someone who always considers herself in control, loose control of the situation i dont think that is something she is used to and she is very off balance.

 

what i want to ask all here is what people thought of rand with the whole "do you believe i could kill you just by willing it" stuff? it seemed to twang abit for me

 

after rereading the book a few times i thought another great scene was rand interrogating the chandlers apprentice and his convo with nynaeve haven't heard much said about that scene unless its in a thread i haven't read but i thought it was great.

 

[thewalrus777]

with Caddy what we saw, at least how i read it was someone who always considers herself in control, loose control of the situation i dont think that is something she is used to and she is very off balance.

 

what i want to ask all here is what people thought of rand with the whole "do you believe i could kill you just by willing it" stuff? it seemed to twang abit for me

 

after rereading the book a few times i thought another great scene was rand interrogating the chandlers apprentice and his convo with nynaeve haven't heard much said about that scene unless its in a thread i haven't read but i thought it was great.

 

 

It's the first time we've ever seen Cadsuane act human. She finally realizes there is a gray area with Rand. And that it's not as cut and dry as she thought before. She can't just force him to do anything, and low and behold it backfired on her. BIG TIME.

 

Rand saying that stuff, I believe, was out of anger and a lack of feelings at the time. Remember he hadn't had his epiphany yet. He was still cuendillar Rand.

[TravelerOfTheWays]

I liked this review so much that I chose it for my first comment!

 

It's funny - Luckers, you were saying that you like Cadsuane but that she seemed off in this book. I've actually been really annoyed by her in the past, but I liked her more in this book. I didn't agree with all or even many of her actions, but I guess I understood her better. I like your distinction: a bully versus a woman who bullies. Maybe I liked her more because Rand was really throwing her and her expectations off-balance. And I have to say, I adored her wondering "What would I do to break myself?" and then her scene breaking Semirhage. It's just what I was thinking - Semirhage would probably be fascinated by her own pain, but she could not STAND being treated as a regular person. Different things break different people, and I can well believe that humiliation in front of these "children," as she calls them, would undo Semirhage. I had similar feelings about Nynaeve; she's annoyed me from almost day one, but seeing more of her interactions with Rand softened me just a bit toward her.

 

Along with you, I utterly loved Egwene. I've been unsure about her in the past, but she's really come into her own as a person since her time with the Wise Ones, culminating in her complete domination of Elaida. If Rand is the one to defend the world from the Dark One, I think Egwene will be one of the main figures in rebuilding it. I think her unique background - Two Rivers, brief stint in White Tower, Wise one training, back to rebel Aes Sedai - gives her a perspective and discipline the White Tower really needs.

 

Mat seemed off to me too. I can buy that he was discombobulated by being in love and being away from Tuon (as he knows her), but it still struck me as a bit much and a bit overpowering. Talmanes was a little different too, but I didn't mind that.

 

I was amazed at how engaging I found Rand in this volume. Usually he's annoyed me, though not as much as Perrin (who continued to bore me) and Faile (who finally did something cool! and even admitted to her stupid jealousy issues, sorta!), but I was glued to his chapters. I loved watching him go completely crazydark and then pull himself out of that. He had a couple of lines that would have been cheesy in almost any other context, but which worked for me - especially his line to Nynaeve about "dream for me."  Rand's relationship with Nynaeve was a lot more interesting than I had ever realized.

 

Oh yes, and I totally guessed the reason behind Aviendha's punishment before she did. One thing about WoT that bugs me is how SOOO MYSTERIOUS characters find people from other cultures.  I know, part of that is their isolation from the Aiel and the Seanchan until now, but I should think that the continued exposure, at least of our big worldly characters, would give them a little more insight beyond, "OMG their sense of humor/honor is so weird!"

 

Did anyone else notice that certain dialogue got a LOT more smart-alecky?? I thought some people might not like it, but it actually made me burst out laughing on occasion. Egwene's denunciation of Elaida - "I would name you Darkfriend, but I rather suspect that the Dark One would be embarrassed by the association" - cracked me up. I'm not sure RJ would have written that line (who knows?), but I thought it was great. Some of BS's lines shade almost too contemporary/smart-alecky, but overall I really enjoyed the dialogue.

 

That's all for now. I loved this book, and now I'm sad that I'm finished with it! I kept telling people how amazed I was that people were talking to each other and that so much stuff was happening!

[water_seeker]

Gotta throw this out there, though: realise, realising and realisations all actually have 'z's in them.

 

Not really.  Most of the British works I have read that contain those words (or similar words) have s's instead of z's.  I would assume the same is true in Australia.

 

I'll post an actual response to the review later.  Right now my eyes are dry and I'm seeing double (I'm up too late. :D).  I will say that I enjoyed reading it tho.

[Zagorac]

First of all I really enjoyed the book! Brandon did a great job! This book is better than few of the last ones in the series. There is finally something changing inside Rand's head!(I've been waiting for that for quite a while). Egwene was (and I hate this word) AWESOME!!! No need to say more. With Mat I had a feeling that Brandon put him in the book because people would've been disappointed if he hadn't. It's in the next book that we will see plenty of good old Mat I think. About Cadsuan. I love Cadsuan. People so don't get her! Completely don't get her. She is by far the strongest character in the series(I'm talking about will power). And people don't get that the way she's been treating Rand was the ONLY way to go. Luckers is one of the few people I've seen on these forums that understands her. But unlike him I was not at all disappointed in her! She did some amazing things in this book!(Semirhag, and probably saved Rand's sanity) Luckers, you sad she lost her subtlety. I disagree. When she bullies, she is the master! No way for you to do anything else but exactly what she wants you to. But she was never subtle about it. She was never blunt either but subtle? I mean could see it coming every time, but the great thing about her is even when you saw it coming and thought you could elude her, you got crushed.

[Luckers]

Gotta throw this out there, though: realise, realising and realisations all actually have 'z's in them.  :-*

 

Not in the mother language they don't. I be from Ausland!

[deathgate]

I forgot to put in my post that I enjoyed the review and that Luckers is one that I wait for to see how he responds to other's posts. If it passes muster with him it is a serious possibility. Also agree on the high points through the series. BTW, according to the tiemline todays is tha anniversary of one. Happy Dumai Wells day!

[Disco]

 

Egwene

 

I know alot of people have a problem with Egwene as a character. She is very sure of herself, and can be exacting in her judgements of people, but she is also fair. Take for instance her judgement of Rand for allowing Taim to bond Asha'men. I know alot of posters had issues with that. She judges him for something he had no role in, and attempted to repair when he did learn of it--because it was done by his servants.

 

People get up in arms about how unfair that it--but the fact is what she is judging is not him letting Aes Sedai be bonded, but the failure of his leadership that allowed it to happen. And she applies that same stricture to herself when Siuan 'rescued' her, and as harshly. Egwene is not unreasonable--she thinks and rethinks her positions constantly--she's just unwilling to bend in the judgements that result from that. And that is what a leader must be. People complain that she doesn't give Rand the respect he's due, but its not so much that she is dismissing him, just holding him up to the same standards she holds herself. And yes, she is prejudiced towards what should and should not be done to Aes Sedai--but hey, she's Amyrlin. If she weren't then she doesn't deserve the job. And that doesn't go back to that old sense of Aes Sedai manifest destiny, it's just simple--she should believe in what she is doing.

 

That, I think, is the true core of Egwene's arc in this book. She is stepping into the position where no one restrains her power--where before it was the Hall trying to use her as a puppet, or Elaida trying to squash her down. Where the Wise Ones were teaching her, or Nynaeve was trying to mother her--in this book she is stepping past the last of those restrictions. And learning to place restrictions on herself. She doesn't always get it right, but she is getting there.

 

All together I thought her protrayal was perhaps even more nuanced than Rand's and very well pulled off.

 

I have major major issues with Egwene in this book. And this isn't Brandon-specific, but she is this young girl who comes to rule such a division of people but seems to be very mild in her intellect. This is hard to explain, but with all the other characters (Rand, Mat, etc) sometimes that say or do things that I think 'wow, would never have thought of that'.

 

But with Egwene I always think 'man that other person is an idiot'.

 

e.g. Her showdown with Elaida. "So you were going to lock him in the tower where he couldnt fufill the prophecies? " We are to serious believe that Elaida and her advisers had NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS? And even if so, Elaida couldnt say "well if a prophecy needed fufilling we would have seen it happen, with AesS guidance".  I mean come on...

 

e.g. Her duel with the Senchan. No one else thought to do what she did? Okay, so they might have been Sa'angreal'less but I just cannot believe all the other AeiS acted like a bunch of school girls.

 

I loved reading about her when she was bringing the tower down from the inside, and I loved when she named her Keeper. But, yeah, huge issues, but have had them about her for a while.

 

Fortuona

 

I will say, though, that there was something of a... reversion... about her character. In KoD she makes clear realisations about Mat's true character, but in the meeting with Rand she seems surprised to come to those realisations again. It seemed to me a convenient way to show that Tuon was confused by her growing love for Mat. I mean it'd make sense, realising his good qualities and all that--except she did it last book. Brandon needed to continue from that basis, not reset it.

 

Disagree on that one. Realising how powerful Mat was, and how much she liked him, is not the same thing as realising how loyal and well respected Mat was thought of amongst other powerful people.

 

Mat

 

What can I say. Didn't love him. Don't get me wrong, I know what Brandon said about him being offbalance due to his marriage, his worry for Tuon, and the fact that she left--but I still don't buy it. The humour was not the humour of an 'off-step Mat'. It was banter. Word play. One poster remarked that Mat was a rogue, not a jester, and thats true even of an off-beat rogue. And that elaborate plan for finding the woman in Trustair...

 

So what's the plus side in all this? It's that Mat was still there--the inner core, that solidity that defines Mat's nature, can be seen in the Gathering Storm. Brandon knows Mat. He's got him there. He just needs to dust him off a bit better.

 

Strange comments, these were the only ones that took me by surprise. I thought it fit very well. Mat was great, the same old Mat, a bit unsure of himself and playing it off very well. My huge issue with him was the side story of the town and ghosts. Thing is, we are took books of the end, BS talks about having too much to fit in, I just thought that new characters and side story and stuff was a bit of a waste of space. I enjoyed it, but get my woman back already.

 

Perrin

 

Perrin was the big change for me in the re-read. My first read I was so hell-bent on what happened next that Perrin's chapters seemed distractions. Nothing important happened, so why weren't they left for the next book? The second re-read reveals some important things about what's going on in Perrin's head. Of his struggle to figure himself out post-Malden but before Tarmon Gai'don. Given the hints we have about what comes next for Perrin he needs this time, and we need to see him taking this time.

 

So, following my re-read I believe these chapters were not only necessary, but perfect. There were some weird jarring though with revelations about what Perrin was up to from Rand and Tam. Brandon may have been better served to simply leave out references to Morgase and Galad--but that's just personal opinion.

 

I am leaving out the things I agree with you about, but this paragraph hit the nail on the head, extra kudos.

 

Cadsuane

 

Did not love her either. I won't speak much on her, but in my opinion she lost a great deal of the subtlety and integrity--not to meantion craftiness--that informed everything she does. Before when she bullied, she was a subtle and skillful bully. That's why so many hate her, because she was good at what she did. The Cadsuane of tGS was just blunt. It was dissapointing.

 

And just to be clear, this is not me upset that she failed, or was called out by Tam, this was me upset that she had to get dumbed down in order for either to happen. A scene that should have been epic--Tam's greatest moment--instead was just average.

 

Unlike Mat there's no silver lining to this one. Brandon's been clear about his feelings towards Cadsuane, and I doubt that will change. I'll just have to suck it up, I guess.  :)

 

Yes, I feel BS's comments he has missed the point of Caddy a bit. Having said  that, I could agree with everything that she did because she would have been at her wits end. I think he dropped the ball, but not as badly as you think. My instinct is that if he nails Caddy from now on, no one will look back and think otherwise in tGS. If he doesn't, people will look at tGS and not like her character.

 

Gawyn

 

He was enjoyably thick headed without being made into a caricature (which, by the way, kudos to Brandon. His whiny self-absorbed personality practically screams that he should be a cardboard cut out, but Brandon managed to avoid that completely). His wavering was some of the best writing in the book--for all that he's an annoying character.

 

Not sure if people remember me from the years ago where I was very active here. I think 50% of all my posts were on how much I hate Gawyn. I hope he dies from an axe wound to the rectum.

 

But anyway.

 

I think maybe I have grown as a person a bit in the RJ-BS gap because I saw something here. Something in him. I think he has a huge amount of guilt and shame from how big of a douche he has been, especially from the box incident. The reason his anger continues to build towards Rand is that he stops to realise that Rand hasn't wronged him, even that Rand protected/avenged his family, he will be forced to deal with what he has done to an innocent man. I think he subconciously knows this but can't deal with it, and just generates his self hatred and guilt into anger towards Rand.

 

Thoughts?

[dbo -WoT-]

I agree--not with your opinion on Cadsuane. She's my favourite character, and is, in my opinion, not only justified in her attempts to guide Rand, but necessary. That characters are struggling to manipulate the man in whose hands the fate of the world lies doesn't irritate me--when they're genuinely trying to help, as opposed to being self-serving or just plain throwing their weight around. Cadsuane in my opinion is exactly that. She has integrity, and when she bullies Rand she does it was a specific purpose in mind. In effect she is not so much a bully, as she is a woman who bullies, if you can understand the destinction I'm trying to make.

 

But that's all irrelevant. Personal opinion on the portrayal of character, and one we're not likely to agree on. But I DO agree that Brandon still achieved the same ends. I was never saying that the story was off--just that Cadsuane was. I've explained above the ways in which I think that was detrimental to the story--but mostly it was just dissapointing to see my favourite character portrayed in such a bad light.

 

I probably won't speak much more on Caddy unless someone raises a distinct new point, but yes, I just wanted to explain myself. I may love Caddy as a charecter, but love her or hate her I think the way she was portrayed was counter-productive.  :)

 

I know you said you wouldn't comment on Cadsuane anymore, but I just wanted to respond to your response so I could let you know I agree with you as well.

I do see where you're coming from about Cadsuane trying to manipulate Rand in order to help him. Obviously our personal opinions differ in how we feel about her and her actions, but I do agree with your points about why you see her in a positive light. They make perfect sense. Anyways, as a couple posters have said, Cadsuane is finally acting more human because she started to realise she is failing with Rand. However, I will have to go re-read the final scene between Cadsuane and Tam. I haven't done a re-read yet and my initial read was done in a rush (the book was so good I wanted to keep going and going). Sadly, I loaned the book out to a friend and haven't had it for a while. Either way, you made valid points about her being way too blunt at times. I'm glad you agreed that BS did still achieve the same ends though. I, of course, loved the way Cadsuane finally started to realise she was failing, then suceeded in getting to Rand with Tam, and then failed again. The ends of those scenes would have been the same either way, and I probably would have loved them either way, but you are right that Cadsuane's character may have been botched along the way. Regardless of personal opinion, I will admit she was always a subtle and intelligent character. Although we must remember that it wasn't necessarily BS that "botched" Cadsuane's character. Would we think her character spoiled if we knew RJ wrote those scenes (as in the whole book was written by RJ and we weren't looking for differences)? Some will say yes, others may say that, no, they wouldn't have realised it. Either way, we can't necessarily say BS didn't quite get her character. If some Caddy scenes were written by RJ, the others were written by BS to simply link them. Either way, BS doesn't like her and his writing on her in the future will probably work for me ;).

 

Anyways, good review overall.

 

 

 

Egwene

 

I know alot of people have a problem with Egwene as a character. She is very sure of herself, and can be exacting in her judgements of people, but she is also fair. Take for instance her judgement of Rand for allowing Taim to bond Asha'men. I know alot of posters had issues with that. She judges him for something he had no role in, and attempted to repair when he did learn of it--because it was done by his servants.

 

People get up in arms about how unfair that it--but the fact is what she is judging is not him letting Aes Sedai be bonded, but the failure of his leadership that allowed it to happen. And she applies that same stricture to herself when Siuan 'rescued' her, and as harshly. Egwene is not unreasonable--she thinks and rethinks her positions constantly--she's just unwilling to bend in the judgements that result from that. And that is what a leader must be. People complain that she doesn't give Rand the respect he's due, but its not so much that she is dismissing him, just holding him up to the same standards she holds herself. And yes, she is prejudiced towards what should and should not be done to Aes Sedai--but hey, she's Amyrlin. If she weren't then she doesn't deserve the job. And that doesn't go back to that old sense of Aes Sedai manifest destiny, it's just simple--she should believe in what she is doing.

 

That, I think, is the true core of Egwene's arc in this book. She is stepping into the position where no one restrains her power--where before it was the Hall trying to use her as a puppet, or Elaida trying to squash her down. Where the Wise Ones were teaching her, or Nynaeve was trying to mother her--in this book she is stepping past the last of those restrictions. And learning to place restrictions on herself. She doesn't always get it right, but she is getting there.

 

All together I thought her protrayal was perhaps even more nuanced than Rand's and very well pulled off.

 

I have major major issues with Egwene in this book. And this isn't Brandon-specific, but she is this young girl who comes to rule such a division of people but seems to be very mild in her intellect. This is hard to explain, but with all the other characters (Rand, Mat, etc) sometimes that say or do things that I think 'wow, would never have thought of that'.

 

But with Egwene I always think 'man that other person is an idiot'.

 

e.g. Her showdown with Elaida. "So you were going to lock him in the tower where he couldnt fufill the prophecies? " We are to serious believe that Elaida and her advisers had NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS? And even if so, Elaida couldnt say "well if a prophecy needed fufilling we would have seen it happen, with AesS guidance".  I mean come on...

 

e.g. Her duel with the Senchan. No one else thought to do what she did? Okay, so they might have been Sa'angreal'less but I just cannot believe all the other AeiS acted like a bunch of school girls.

 

I loved reading about her when she was bringing the tower down from the inside, and I loved when she named her Keeper. But, yeah, huge issues, but have had them about her for a while.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I agree that I sometimes read the characters around Egwene and think of them as acting foolish. I still haven't done my re-read of TGS, but when I do I'll probably look for this and see if the foolish characters around her had cause to be foolish. Anyways, we must remember that a large majority of people will act foolish/idiotic at one time or another. I know I have plenty of times and I don't consider myself too idiotic :). Whether or not there were really that many people around Egwene who were complete fools, I'll have to determine in my re-read. From what I remember, I would say I at least partially agree that Egwene is, at times, made to look like a stronger character because of other characters mishaps. I would say Cadsuane's character is made to look stronger at times because of another characters foolishness as well. However, she gets away with it because they think she is capable of more than a normal human. Ex (don't remember the book or exact scene-one of my recent reads/re-reads: TGS/CoS/PoD): There was a scene where Cadsuane was in a sitting room and another Aes Sedai came in. Cadsuane saw her in the reflection off her something (?? don't quite remember) and told her, by name, she could come the rest of the way in because the Aes Sedai (forget her name) paused for a few seconds/minutes. The Aes Sedai was startled, obviously, because she thought Cadsuane had used some secret/legendary trick etc. She was foolish to not realise that she was probably seen in a reflection. True, I've startled people by naming them after only seeing their reflection. However, just as many times people have realised how I knew they were there. The fact that most characters around Cadsuane take the more foolish route makes perfect sense because of how they view her. Constantly foolish characters don't make as much sense for Egwene. Either way, it is a good point because there are characters in Egwene's plotline that I've thought acted foolishly. I don't remember if they had good cause to be acting foolishly or not.

 

Anyways, good post.

[deathgate]

Egwene and Cadsuane (Moiraine would fit here also) have been through a lot more than other Aes Sedai. Egwene knows all about Seanchan and what they mean to her and the others. She has stated before she would rather die than be captured by them again. It is a bit far fetched that no others did much at all but many have in the tower for years and thought it was completely invincible. Didn't the leader of the Greens act ashamed at their effort at fighting?

[IoCaster]

I find it interesting how much I disagree with you about nearly everything. I'll limit myself to two points though.

 

The scene with Beslan was, to my mind, one of the worst in the book. It was totally out of character for Tuon and didn't make any sense. If she was determined to be so dismissive of treason and defiance, I seriously doubt she would have done it in that setting. A private meeting would have made more sense. To allow that type of open defiance before what was essentially a public audience at court doesn't make sense for any ruler, much less a savvy player like Tuon. That scene really felt forced and contrived. I might very well be wrong, but I can't imagine RJ writing it out that way. *shrug*

 

I am the polar opposite with regards to Cadsuane. The intensity of my loathing for this character is immeasurable. The introduction of this POS garbage character nearly drove me away from the series. If Rand is not in it, I skip every scene that she's in. I wish to God that RJ had devised a better solution. I've invested too much time and treasure to abandon the series before it's finished, but it's painful. I can only hope that BS has enough leeway to ensure that he can improvise a truly horrific death scene for her. The sooner the better to my mind.  I could go on, but there's no need to belabor the point. *retch* *barf* *puke* *gag*