Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[navahgar]

  I have no idea where I should actually post this question/thought, so I'm going to do it here and hope that the powers that be either tell me I'm a moron or put it in an appropriate place.  My fundamental thought is that there is no such thing as a 'wheel' of time in the WOT series and that the entire idea of infinite/many previous battles is a fabrication/misunderstanding perpetrated by Elan Morin. 

 

  I think this because, for starters, the WOT series has frequently established that the 'knowledge' possessed by any character should be taken not as fact, but as simply the opinion of that character.  So fundamentally, why do we think that there is a 'wheel of time', or that reality in this fantasy world is cyclical?  As far as I can tell, we think this for two reasons:  because 'everyone' in the WOT world seems to think so, and because Elan Morin told us it was so. 

 

  As to the latter, why should we believe anything that Ba'alzamon says about anything?  He is, at least through the first 12 books, clearly 'the bad guy' and is a servant of the Father of Lies.  Yes, he seems to possess greater knowledge than Rand (or Lews Therin for that matter), but seems does not make it so.  He may be lying about the cyclical nature of reality in order to dishearten the Dragon (which almost happens in tGS), or simply be mistaken.

 

  As to the former, why should we believe the religious conviction of a populous that is clearly out of touch with reality.  The prevalent catechism seems to be that 'the Creator bound the Dark Lord and the Forsaken at the beginning of time'...or something to that effect.  Clearly, based on the memories of Lews Therin and the Forsaken themselves, we know that that is not true, at least insofar as it concerns the Forsaken.  So why should we persist in thinking that it is true with respect to the Dark Lord.  As far as I can tell, the only reason to believe it is that so many citizens in the WOT world believe it...but when was that a reasonable explanation?

 

  I have a lot of ideas about what is, singularly temporally, going on, but I'd like to hear first whether people think this is just a stupid idea........thoughts?

[water_seeker]

@ vahahgar:

 

RJ talked numerous times about the cyclical nature of the wheel.

[Shadow Rider]

An adam-linked pair form a involuntary circle that can't be expanded. Egwene exploited that weakness in the Tower.

But women can be brought into a circle (voluntarily) after they have started using an angreal or s'angreal (same difference in this case, a sangreal is basically a very strong angreal that's used the same way).

So it may be theoretically possible that an uncollared woman embraces OP with an angreal and then she's collared.

In that case, it would just be like collaring a very strong damane, which is not a problem (Alivia, etc). 

Still we've never seen a damane-suldam pair use angreal, nor do we have any Seanchan PoVs about wanting angreals.

 

 

Is it possible for someone to be collared while holding the the one power?

[Sharaman]

An adam-linked pair form a involuntary circle that can't be expanded. Egwene exploited that weakness in the Tower.

But women can be brought into a circle (voluntarily) after they have started using an angreal or s'angreal (same difference in this case, a sangreal is basically a very strong angreal that's used the same way).

So it may be theoretically possible that an uncollared woman embraces OP with an angreal and then she's collared.

In that case, it would just be like collaring a very strong damane, which is not a problem (Alivia, etc). 

Still we've never seen a damane-suldam pair use angreal, nor do we have any Seanchan PoVs about wanting angreals.

 

Is it possible for someone to be collared while holding the the one power?

 

We've never seen it done AFAIK.

But it may be possible, assuming she's either willing or taken by surprise.

I mentioned it as a "theoretical possibility" - we've never seen angreal used by damane.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Is it possible for someone to be collared while holding the the one power?

 

Yes. Nynaeve collars Moghedian in TAR whilst she is channeling.

[Shadow Rider]

Who made the Ashandari?

I seems to me that the Ashandari was made specifically for Mat...

Are the Finns capable of forging with the power?

Do the Finns have Aes Sedai prisoners manufacturing such things?

Where did it come from?

[Sharaman]

Who made the Ashandari?

I seems to me that the Ashandari was made specifically for Mat...

Are the Finns capable of forging with the power?

Do the Finns have Aes Sedai prisoners manufacturing such things?

Where did it come from?

 

The Ashanderei was forged with the One Power in the Age of Legends.

We don't know where and how it landed up with the Finns but they do possess a lot of artefacts of the OP including terangreal etc.

 

[Paerish Swar]

Who made the Ashandari?

I seems to me that the Ashandari was made specifically for Mat...

Are the Finns capable of forging with the power?

Do the Finns have Aes Sedai prisoners manufacturing such things?

Where did it come from?

 

The Ashanderei was forged with the One Power in the Age of Legends.

We don't know where and how it landed up with the Finns but they do possess a lot of artefacts of the OP including terangreal etc.

 

I'm glad somebody brought this up.

 

I believe RJ once said that the heron mark on the One Power forged blades was the mark of a "light side" general in the War of Power.  Just the generals got the heron blades, that's why there are so few.

 

I always found it curious that Mat's weapon has black ravens on it.  I have to throw out the question here, what if this was the weapon of one of the Dark One's generals during the War of Power?

 

Which leads me to another related question, what if it actually isn't a One Power forged blade, but a True Power forged blade?

 

Is that just way too out there?  Or might a crazy idea like this have some significance?

 

(I once thought this might be the BUT) 

[Sharaman]

Who made the Ashandari?

I seems to me that the Ashandari was made specifically for Mat...

Are the Finns capable of forging with the power?

Do the Finns have Aes Sedai prisoners manufacturing such things?

Where did it come from?

 

The Ashanderei was forged with the One Power in the Age of Legends.

We don't know where and how it landed up with the Finns but they do possess a lot of artefacts of the OP including terangreal etc.

 

I'm glad somebody brought this up.

 

I believe RJ once said that the heron mark on the One Power forged blades was the mark of a "light side" general in the War of Power.  Just the generals got the heron blades, that's why there are so few.

 

I always found it curious that Mat's weapon has black ravens on it.  I have to throw out the question here, what if this was the weapon of one of the Dark One's generals during the War of Power?

 

Which leads me to another related question, what if it actually isn't a One Power forged blade, but a True Power forged blade?

 

Is that just way too out there?  Or might a crazy idea like this have some significance?

 

(I once thought this might be the BUT) 

 

No answers - we know its power-wrought and

http://web.archive.org/web/20010420004332/http://www.dromen-demonen.nl/luitingh_htdocs/transjordan.html

 

Sarah-Kayan: Does the ashandarei come from the Age of Legends?

RJ: Yes the ashandarei comes from the Age of Legends.

 

[Paerish Swar]

Who made the Ashandari?

I seems to me that the Ashandari was made specifically for Mat...

Are the Finns capable of forging with the power?

Do the Finns have Aes Sedai prisoners manufacturing such things?

Where did it come from?

 

The Ashanderei was forged with the One Power in the Age of Legends.

We don't know where and how it landed up with the Finns but they do possess a lot of artefacts of the OP including terangreal etc.

 

I'm glad somebody brought this up.

 

I believe RJ once said that the heron mark on the One Power forged blades was the mark of a "light side" general in the War of Power.  Just the generals got the heron blades, that's why there are so few.

 

I always found it curious that Mat's weapon has black ravens on it.  I have to throw out the question here, what if this was the weapon of one of the Dark One's generals during the War of Power?

 

Which leads me to another related question, what if it actually isn't a One Power forged blade, but a True Power forged blade?

 

Is that just way too out there?  Or might a crazy idea like this have some significance?

 

(I once thought this might be the BUT) 

 

No answers - we know its power-wrought and

http://web.archive.org/web/20010420004332/http://www.dromen-demonen.nl/luitingh_htdocs/transjordan.html

 

Sarah-Kayan: Does the ashandarei come from the Age of Legends?

RJ: Yes the ashandarei comes from the Age of Legends.

 

Thanks for the link!

 

The very first time I read tSR, I thought the ashandarei might have been made during the Trolloc Wars, which is about the same time frame of Mat's earliest memories from the Finns.  But I eventually discounted that.

 

RJ's response to Sarah makes me think that my suspicions could have some validity.  If the ashandarei is for sure from the AoL, and Aes Sedai weren't manufacturing OP blades until after the bore was made (being a peaceful people and all), and there was a "convention" of marking OP blades with herons for generals on the light side, then what is the significance of a weapon marked with two black ravens in metal on both the haft and blade of the weapon?

 

Could it have been the weapon of a Darkfriend General during the War of Power?

 

How might something like that play out plot-wise in the next two books?  Is it even worth discussing?

[CUBAREY]

RJ's response to Sarah makes me think that my suspicions could have some validity.  If the ashandarei is for sure from the AoL, and Aes Sedai weren't manufacturing OP blades until after the bore was made (being a peaceful people and all), and there was a "convention" of marking OP blades with herons for generals on the light side, then what is the significance of a weapon marked with two black ravens in metal on both the haft and blade of the weapon?

 

Could it have been the weapon of a Darkfriend General during the War of Power?

 

You are assuming that the image of Ravens is Universally associated with the Darkone and that this has been true since the AOL. Since Ravens are not associated with the Devil in our time your assumption is at least doubrful.

[Paerish Swar]

You are assuming that the image of Ravens is Universally associated with the Darkone and that this has been true since the AOL. Since Ravens are not associated with the Devil in our time your assumption is at least doubrful.

 

I am only wondering if the ravens have a significance that has as of yet not been discussed.  If (and I know this is a big "if") there was ever a somewhat consistent convention on the side of the light to mark One Power forged blades with a heron during the AoL (and we can assume that this wasn't always the case, especially when we look at Lan's sword - no heron mark, but OP wrought - and even Thom's knives) the black ravens on Mat's Ashandarei begs the questions, "Why black ravens?  What might these signify?"

 

The herons meant something specific, might not the ravens?  If so, what do they mean?

 

I don't know where the Seanchan convention of using the image of the raven comes from, but it is pretty consistent among Randlanders, especially those who have a history of fighting against the DO and shadowspawn, that carrion feeders like ravens are used as His eyes - worthy of being killed at any opportunity.  In a culture aware of this fact, and the Seanchan seem somehow not to be, the symbol of a black raven might be more ominous - a sign of something dark and evil.  I think this may have been the case in the AoL/WoP, too.

[Durinax]

You are assuming that the image of Ravens is Universally associated with the Darkone and that this has been true since the AOL. Since Ravens are not associated with the Devil in our time your assumption is at least doubrful.

 

I am only wondering if the ravens have a significance that has as of yet not been discussed.  If (and I know this is a big "if") there was ever a somewhat consistent convention on the side of the light to mark One Power forged blades with a heron during the AoL (and we can assume that this wasn't always the case, especially when we look at Lan's sword - no heron mark, but OP wrought - and even Thom's knives) the black ravens on Mat's Ashandarei begs the questions, "Why black ravens?  What might these signify?"

 

The herons meant something specific, might not the ravens?  If so, what do they mean?

 

I don't know where the Seanchan convention of using the image of the raven comes from, but it is pretty consistent among Randlanders, especially those who have a history of fighting against the DO and shadowspawn, that carrion feeders like ravens are used as His eyes - worthy of being killed at any opportunity.  In a culture aware of this fact, and the Seanchan seem somehow not to be, the symbol of a black raven might be more ominous - a sign of something dark and evil.  I think this may have been the case in the AoL/WoP, too.

I always figured that the ravens being the imperial symbol was a private joke between Ishy and the future.

Although it could be that different weapons get a different bird for a symbol of mastery though. But if that where the case we would see symbols on a few axes and other things

[myn0s]

Hey all,  I was wondering if anyone could tell me why shadowspawn can't use gateways?

[algspkr]

Hey all,  I was wondering if anyone could tell me why shadowspawn can't use gateways?

 

Other than it causes an acute case of death, I don't believe that there is a reason provided.  There is some speculation that gateways cause the porwer used to animate constructs to dissipate.  And it is known that gateways kill all constructs, including those created by the light like the Nym.

[farthammer]

It seems strange that one of the most potentially useful methods of dealing with shadowspawn was apparently forgotten entirely by the AS?

[Sharaman]

You are assuming that the image of Ravens is Universally associated with the Darkone and that this has been true since the AOL. Since Ravens are not associated with the Devil in our time your assumption is at least doubrful.

 

I am only wondering if the ravens have a significance that has as of yet not been discussed.  If (and I know this is a big "if") there was ever a somewhat consistent convention on the side of the light to mark One Power forged blades with a heron during the AoL (and we can assume that this wasn't always the case, especially when we look at Lan's sword - no heron mark, but OP wrought - and even Thom's knives) the black ravens on Mat's Ashandarei begs the questions, "Why black ravens?  What might these signify?"

 

The herons meant something specific, might not the ravens?  If so, what do they mean?

 

I don't know where the Seanchan convention of using the image of the raven comes from, but it is pretty consistent among Randlanders, especially those who have a history of fighting against the DO and shadowspawn, that carrion feeders like ravens are used as His eyes - worthy of being killed at any opportunity.  In a culture aware of this fact, and the Seanchan seem somehow not to be, the symbol of a black raven might be more ominous - a sign of something dark and evil.  I think this may have been the case in the AoL/WoP, too.

I always figured that the ravens being the imperial symbol was a private joke between Ishy and the future.

Although it could be that different weapons get a different bird for a symbol of mastery though. But if that where the case we would see symbols on a few axes and other things

 

DragonMount Q&A 2002

 

"Q:  What is the origin of the raven as a symbol of the Seanchan Empire? Why isn't it a hawk?

 

RJ:  The conquerors of Seanchan suffered the fate of many smaller groups that conquer larger. They were, in many ways, absorbed by the conquered, with only an overlayer remaining of what and who they were before.

 

In pre-conquest Seanchan, the raven was a symbol of rulers because (1) it was supposedly wise, and (2) (perhaps more importantly) it supposedly saw and knew everything that happened. Nothing escapes the eyes of the raven, and frankly, any hawk or eagle that tries taking on ravens, gets chased off. So, the golden hawk remains the symbol of the Imperial family, descendants of Artur Hawkwing, but the raven is the symbol of rule and of Empire."

 

I think RJ chose the heron as the sowrdsman's symbol because it's a fast elegant predator but I can't swear to this.

[yoniy0]

It seems strange that one of the most potentially useful methods of dealing with shadowspawn was apparently forgotten entirely by the AS?

Considering the art of Travelling was lost, I find it likely that they would also forget that Shadowspawn can't.

How the heck they forgot the weave for Travelling in the first place is still a mystery to me, that's the last thing I'll neglect to teach my pupils.

[Sharaman]

It seems strange that one of the most potentially useful methods of dealing with shadowspawn was apparently forgotten entirely by the AS?

Considering the art of Travelling was lost, I find it likely that they would also forget that Shadowspawn can't.

How the heck they forgot the weave for Travelling in the first place is still a mystery to me, that's the last thing I'll neglect to teach my pupils.

 

I think the official (RJ) explanation was something like the world's geography changed radically during the Breaking. So there was a longish period when Travel was impossible or at best, very local. Also half the channelers went nuts. By the time global geography had stabilised, Travel had fallen out of use.

 

[Shadow Rider]

I don't think the Ashandari is forged by darkfriends or the Aes Sedai would know....

but this subject has reminded me of previous thought I'd forgotten, that heron mark blades went to Generals & there were also those that didn't bare the heron that went to rulers...

Lans sword is power forged, Hawkwings sword Justice is also power forged and neither bares a heron .... it seems that power forged weapons that do not bare a heron are very rare....

but this doesn't tell us why the Ashandari has Ravens....maybe Ravens are superior to herons  

 

[Sharaman]

I don't think the Ashandari is forged by darkfriends or the Aes Sedai would know....

but this subject has reminded me of previous though I'd forgotten, that heron mark blades went to Generals & there were also those that didn't bare the heron that went to rulers...

Lans sword is power forged, Hawkwings sword Justice is also power forged and neither bares a heron .... it seems that power forged weapons that do not bare a heron are very rare....

but this doesn't tell us why the Ashandari has Ravens....maybe Ravens are superior to herons  

 

From TGH Chapter 1. Lan speaking to Rand.

 

"One of those swords, a plain soldier's sword" - with a faint grimace, almost sad, if the Warder could be

said to show emotion, he slid the blade back into its sheath - "became something more. On the other hand, those

made for lord-generals, with blades so hard no bladesmith could mark them, yet marked already with a heron,

those blades became sought after."

 

The Malkieri king's sword wasn't originally forged for a ruler or general.

"Justice" may not have been either.

Also it may not have been OP-made.

Or Hawkwing may not have been a blademaster.   

Post-Breaking, once the AS stopped making weapons (Second Oath), perhaps only the best swordsmiths would make heron-marked blades and only blademasters would use those heron-marked swords.

There's no reason I can get why an AS would be able to tell if a OP-weapon was forged specifically for a DF - at best, an AS can look at the "matrix alignment" (the crystalline structure I suppose of not just the metal but the iron-wood used in Mat's Naginata haft) and say if it was done by the OP.

The Thankandar blades are different I guess. They may be some resonance or whatever from the soul of the person whose blood was used to quench the blade.  Or some poison in the ore that goes into the making of the black swords.

 

[Shadow Rider]

I'm fairly sure Hawkwings sword was Power forged Rand commented that he thought it should have a Heron...he obviously new it was Power forged.

[Sharaman]

I'm fairly sure Hawkwings sword was Power forged Rand commented that he thought it should have a Heron...he obviously new it was Power forged.

Where? What? No such references at all.

Just that he recognised the blade from his own memories and that it felt right to carry it.

No vibes about herons or it being power wrought. 

[Aquarius]

It seems strange that one of the most potentially useful methods of dealing with shadowspawn was apparently forgotten entirely by the AS?

Considering the art of Travelling was lost, I find it likely that they would also forget that Shadowspawn can't.

How the heck they forgot the weave for Travelling in the first place is still a mystery to me, that's the last thing I'll neglect to teach my pupils.

 

I think the official (RJ) explanation was something like the world's geography changed radically during the Breaking. So there was a longish period when Travel was impossible or at best, very local. Also half the channelers went nuts. By the time global geography had stabilised, Travel had fallen out of use.

 

Don't forget that the original Aes Sedai (even the female ones) died during the breaking and did not pass along their knowledge. Everything had to be rediscovered by the bunch of channelling women that gathered and finally called themselves Aes Sedai. that thing lasted 300 years :/

[yoniy0]

First, when Rand meets Be'lal in TDR we see that he has a heron mark on his Power-woven sword as well, which is pretty suggetstive that he used to carry a heron marked sword before he was sealed away. So it can't be just the Shadow's mark for a blademaster. My take on the issue is that heron marked swords were always given to blademasters, but only lords/generals among them got to have a Power-wroght one.

 

Second, Justice spent quite a bit of time at the bottom of a lake, didn't it? If so, it must be forged using the Power.

 

And third,

Don't forget that the original Aes Sedai (even the female ones) died during the breaking and did not pass along their knowledge. Everything had to be rediscovered by the bunch of channelling women that gathered and finally called themselves Aes Sedai. that thing lasted 300 years :/

What? All AS from the AoL died away and the current day AS are just the successors of women who taught themselves? Is this based on anything concrete?