Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[sVieira151]

The thing is, they aren't lucky every time. They only get lucky occasionally, and when they least expect it. Except Mat, who obviously has extra powers of luck, though that is his only power. I mean, that perfect circle thing is rarity. Most of the time ta'averen affects are random, as I said. You should also be noted that Rand is much more strongly ta'averen than the other two. Meaning he has a bigger air of invincibility. But he has to deal with different problems, mainly personal, than the other two. And just because they don't seem capable of death, doesn't mean other fairly horrible things can't happen to them while the survive through luck. 

 

The bottom line is RJ wasn't really one for killing off important characters (read: on either side). I'm fairly sure he was criticised for it before, but I don't mind. It's a much different type of fantasy than grimmer variants, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (which I enjoy equally). And it should be noted that, while the villains do indeed appear useless, they are in a really strong position in terms of he grand scheme of things. It's just a shame a lot of that is shown offscreen, since the books do tend to focus around the 3 ta'averen and important people to them.

 

And just FYI, Hawkwing was killed by stubborness/a word from the wrong mouth because he refused Aes Sedai healing for his illness. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Everyone seems to think I WANT the main characters to die. I don't. I'm SO tired of people thinking that I want another ASOIAF. I just want to see the villains actually be effective for reasons totally unrelated to luck. and I'd like their luck powers to be a bit more consitant. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. It's TOTALLY arbitrary and makes the entire series bend to RJ's whim rather than bending to the actions of the characters. It happens for characters who aren't Ta'veren too.

 

Why did that building succesfully crush Mat? RJ wanted him around the Seanchan some more. Why did a swarm of pigeons have to throw off Mogheiden's aim? RJ didn't want Nynaeve to die. It's contrived to an absolutely disgusting degree. yet RJ is apparently immune to being crticized for it because he hangs a lampshade on it wth the concept of Ta'veren and the all encompassing nature of the pattern.

 

... I like the series. Really I do. But it requires me to make some concessions just to stay sane. Namely. 1. the Pattern doesn't know everything. and 2. the DO CAN touch the pattern to help his minions on occasion

Edited February 20, 2013 by EmperorAllspice

[EmperorAllspice]

Actually, I think every problem I've ever had with the series with regards to fate and the lack of tension and the unstoppable heroes and the luck helping the main characters arbitrarily can be boiled down and compressed into one very simple question:

 

Did Team Shadow ever have any chance of winning?

Edited February 20, 2013 by EmperorAllspice

[sVieira151]

They do have chances of winning. Unfortunately all the bad guys are in it for a different reason than the DO is. Their failures can also be assigned to internal bickering and conflict as much as it is attributed to the good guys luck. And also, the ultimate shadow victory (which is whatever the DO wants, mainly the destruction of the pattern) is highly contrary to the overall theme(s) of the series anyway. 

 

Oh, and Moghedien is useless. Regardless of pigeons or anything. She is the worst one of the lot. 

 

I can see where you are coming from. I sometimes did feel underwhelmed by the bad guys. However, I don't think stupidity and bad luck is a purely evil side problem. Every character does stupid things at certain points. Pretty much hoping any character does something logical and rational means you will be in for a tough time. The Wheel has a penchant for making everyone thick as shit. 

Edited February 20, 2013 by Vieira151

[EmperorAllspice]

... Mogheiden is my favourite Forsaken :(

 

After Demandred, Rahvin and Sammael.

[sVieira151]

Well, I like her as a character. She is just a shit evil character. 

 

And mine are Demandred, Graendal, Ishamael/Moridin (though it's mainly due to his works earlier in the Age rather than his general inefficiency in the books) and Asmodean. Asmodean is just an interesting character to me, and I'm saddened by the fact he don't last long. 

[EmperorAllspice]

I thought Mogheiden would've been good if she wasn't so OOC in her pointless quest to go after Nynaeve.

 

I think I prefered Ishamael in books 1-3. If nothing else he actually came off as dangerous. and his fight with Rand in book 2 is still one of my favourite fights. Does he do ANYTHING as Moridin

[sVieira151]

Yeah, I agree. I think being bested by a "puny 3rd Ager" ruined her a bit. 

 

Same. I liked his fiery face. Well, besides being Balefire-Linked with Rand, I won't say much. What book are you on?

[EmperorAllspice]

See. The Balefire thing I consider a concious act by the Dark One, or the Dark one and Moridin.

 

I'm about a 3rd of the way through book 9. If there are any spoilers about anything competent he does just tell me. My friend keeps saying that he's competent but I'm sure m friend is either delusional or lying to try and make me read his favourite  series

[sVieira151]

Well, he is competent at most things. Just not really dealing with the main good guys. Plus, now he is linked he can't really kill Rand just now. Meaning he has to rely on his... pets and his plots to give him the best chance to achieve what he wishes. I'm actually trying to think of things that he may do but I can't really remember much. The latter books are more focused on the other Forsaken (and bad peoples) and their acts, and he is just generally the leader and co-ordinating it all. I may be mistaken though... I have only read through the series once, and finished Book 3 on my reread before I decided to read aMoL. I will be continuing once I get a hold of my books though. 

[Suttree]

I thought Mogheiden would've been good if she wasn't so OOC in her pointless quest to go after Nynaeve.

I think I prefered Ishamael in books 1-3. If nothing else he actually came off as dangerous. and his fight with Rand in book 2 is still one of my favourite fights. Does he do ANYTHING as Moridin

Look to Moridin's breakdown of the game sha'ra for hints of what he is up to. Let's just just say things get very "dark" for Rand in the coming books.

[EmperorAllspice]

but how much of that talk was just him being arrogant and how much was him actually saying things that meant something?

 

"Hard to lose a game when you're playing both sides at the same time" oh shut up, Moridin.

[sVieira151]

But he is. Suttree speaks the truth. 

[EmperorAllspice]

If he's playing every side then how does Rand get away with cleansing Saidin? (narrows eyes irritably)

[sVieira151]

A mix of good tactics and poor bad guy organisation. The latter is something they really need to work on. (Huh, we've been summoned to this battle. Lets all go individually and not bother trying to work as a team! YAY!). Moridin also doesn't take part in said battle (in case you are wondering). He sent his pets instead. 

[EmperorAllspice]

okay, then he isn't playing every side. Otherwise someone on Rand's side of the battle would be set up to stop him.

[sVieira151]

 

Does he have to play every side for every event? Nope. He can bide his time, and attempt to strike at the right moment. He obviously thought that time was the wrong time. I mean, it's not as if cleansing saidin would not be beneficial to all the male channelers on the shadows side anyway (as far as I can tell, it's only the Forsaken who are protected from the taint).

 

EDIT: Also, who says he was talking about the cleansing when he said that specific thing you quoted?

Edited February 20, 2013 by Vieira151

[EmperorAllspice]

Actually, there's one scene I'm dreading even more than the Cleansing of Saidin. that's the one where all the Forsaken meet for Moridin to tell them to stop Rand however they can. It sounds like there's gonna be a lot of arrogance, incredulity and fear (rolls eyes)

[sVieira151]

Well, wherever the Forsaken go there will be arrogance, so that's nothing unusual. 

[Whizbang]

Think of the Shadow's fight against the Patterns designs as playing Chess against a computer. If you set the difficulty way up, it will be difficult. The computer will lead you into traps, force you into moves, take advantage of every mistake. To beat the computer, you have to be GOOD. The DO is GOOD at this game, but even he has yet to beat the computer. What chance do the Forsaken have fighting the Pattern? Of course they will sometimes be influenced to do the Pattern's will. It may bve against their will, and probably without their knowing it, but it happens. It is up to the DO to take that into account and plan accordingly, which he has done. This isn't a straight forward military fight between Shadowspawn and light-siders. This is a massively complex game of chess where every person, animal, plant, and speck of dust is a piece in the cosmic game.

 

We are spectators in that game. When you watch Masters play, you don't say "But, the Pawn didn't want to go there! It had no choice!" or "I can't believe that the King escaped that Check! That was so unbelieveable!" Instead, you say things like "That was a very clever feint by Player A." or "I didn't see where Player B was going. It seemed like Player A had him beat, but those last couple of moves revealed a clever trap." (Pardon the lame dialog. I am not really a chess player and so cannot come up with appropriate expressions) The two main antagonists are the DO and the Pattern. If you wanna see the DO as the underdog and root for him, fine. That's cool. Yes, there is free will. Chaos does enter into the Pattern and can potentially mess up the schemes and plans of the players, but most of the time the characters in this series are playing within the plans and schemes of the two major antagonists.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Whizbang

[EmperorAllspice]

But the pattern is EVERYTHING and we aren't really shown how you can fight it. How do you fight something that knows literally EVERYTHING about everyone and controls things in such a way that it appears natural? This isn't a computer this is reality itself. What methods does Shaitan have of going against the grand design?

 

And are you saying I can't even enjoy it when the Chosen does something cool? :(

[Thorgan]

In TDR, how did Lanfear figure out that the girls were hunting the Black Ajah?

[EmperorAllspice]

In TDR. How did Moiraine figure out that Lord Brend was Sammael after just being in town for a little while? Is he that obvious?

Edited February 20, 2013 by EmperorAllspice

[capuga]

In TDR. How did Moiraine figure out that Lord Brend was Sammael after just being in town for a little while? Is he that obvious?

That one has never had a good answer. It mostly gets chocked up to "Moiraine is awesome".

[Agitel]

But the pattern is EVERYTHING and we aren't really shown how you can fight it. How do you fight something that knows literally EVERYTHING about everyone and controls things in such a way that it appears natural? This isn't a computer this is reality itself. What methods does Shaitan have of going against the grand design?

 

And are you saying I can't even enjoy it when the Chosen does something cool? :(

 

You need to keep reading. The game that's being played can't really be fully discussed until after tGS. And stop spoiling yourself. Half the questions require more spoilers to answer, and the other half you need to read about in context before judging.

 

Anyway, the Wheel doesn't know everything. It gets feedback from the system. Imagine it like a supercomputer anticipating the most likely moves to happen a number of steps ahead of time. It's an incredibly complex system, but that doesn't mean it's not beatable.

 

And there's some thematic concepts we can't discuss until you finish the series anyway.