Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[yoniy0]

The CK allows you to draw enough Power to "crack the world like an egg". At that point, I really don't think it's about burning out anymore; holding that much Power is very likely an enormous risk in and of itself.

 

Also, burning out doesn't affect the soul. If you die and are reborn, your soul would be restored. Transmigration is a different matter, and I think that's the source of the confusion.

[MasterAblar]

Did he expect that? I don't remember reading something like that. He would probably consider it a likely scenario but no more likely than surviving. Like a fifty-fifty thing. There were no prophecies as far as I'm aware as in the case of Rand.

 

Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none.

 

Does it really matter that much though? LTT believed his strike was the key to winning the war. Most scholars thought he would rip open the Bore if he displaced the Seals in the attempt. He was willing to risk destroying the Pattern, risking the strongest weapon you have to fall into enemy hands is not that significant compared to that.

 

Well, it matters because even if he succeeds in sealing away the DO, there's still the Forsaken to deal with. Now if the sa'angreal was key to his plan, I would understand. But this sa'angreal would have been useless as far as the sealing is concerned, and this was a raid, so the most important was speed. Not only that but he planned this raid in secret. Unless this sa'angreal was his (unlikely), would he really have been able get his hands on it so easely? Even as the Supreme Commander of the Light, it's not very subtle to ask for the most powerful usable sa'angreal the Light possesed, particularly considering the hostilities between the Aes Sedai at the time.

[BFG]

According to Lanfear there are two sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. CK is one, maybe LTT was using the other. I agree it's extremely crazy LTT created the highest mountain in the world unaided.

 

Like the Ring of Tamrylin?

 

I doubt LTT would have risked taking such a powerful sa'angreal with him to SG.

 

I'm pretty sure the two sa'angreal Lanfear referred to were the two CK.

[MasterAblar]

According to Lanfear there are two sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. CK is one, maybe LTT was using the other. I agree it's extremely crazy LTT created the highest mountain in the world unaided.

 

Like the Ring of Tamrylin?

 

I doubt LTT would have risked taking such a powerful sa'angreal with him to SG.

 

I'm pretty sure the two sa'angreal Lanfear referred to were the two CK.

 

She said there were two more powerful that a man could use, ruling out the female CK.

[BFG]

According to Lanfear there are two sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor. CK is one, maybe LTT was using the other. I agree it's extremely crazy LTT created the highest mountain in the world unaided.

 

Like the Ring of Tamrylin?

 

I doubt LTT would have risked taking such a powerful sa'angreal with him to SG.

 

I'm pretty sure the two sa'angreal Lanfear referred to were the two CK.

 

She said there were two more powerful that a man could use, ruling out the female CK.

 

Thanks, my mistake

[Amandera]

Did he expect that? I don't remember reading something like that. He would probably consider it a likely scenario but no more likely than surviving. Like a fifty-fifty thing. There were no prophecies as far as I'm aware as in the case of Rand.

 

Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none.

 

Does it really matter that much though? LTT believed his strike was the key to winning the war. Most scholars thought he would rip open the Bore if he displaced the Seals in the attempt. He was willing to risk destroying the Pattern, risking the strongest weapon you have to fall into enemy hands is not that significant compared to that.

 

Well, it matters because even if he succeeds in sealing away the DO, there's still the Forsaken to deal with. Now if the sa'angreal was key to his plan, I would understand. But this sa'angreal would have been useless as far as the sealing is concerned, and this was a raid, so the most important was speed. Not only that but he planned this raid in secret. Unless this sa'angreal was his (unlikely), would he really have been able get his hands on it so easely? Even as the Supreme Commander of the Light, it's not very subtle to ask for the most powerful usable sa'angreal the Light possesed, particularly considering the hostilities between the Aes Sedai at the time.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I've accepted yoniy0's answer about how angreal work. I may concede a few points but the fact remains LTT somehow handled as much saidin as Rand could with CK. The only explanation I can think of other than Brandon screwing up is that LTT had a sa'angreal that rivaled CK.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Cem Önal

[yoniy0]

Or, you know, it's another one of these "feels like" things, as with the comparison between the TP and the Power the CK offered him.

[MasterAblar]

Did he expect that? I don't remember reading something like that. He would probably consider it a likely scenario but no more likely than surviving. Like a fifty-fifty thing. There were no prophecies as far as I'm aware as in the case of Rand.

 

Lews Therin himself, who intended to personally lead this huge raid, admitted that even with sucess, he expected few of the attackers to survive, perhaps none.

 

Does it really matter that much though? LTT believed his strike was the key to winning the war. Most scholars thought he would rip open the Bore if he displaced the Seals in the attempt. He was willing to risk destroying the Pattern, risking the strongest weapon you have to fall into enemy hands is not that significant compared to that.

 

Well, it matters because even if he succeeds in sealing away the DO, there's still the Forsaken to deal with. Now if the sa'angreal was key to his plan, I would understand. But this sa'angreal would have been useless as far as the sealing is concerned, and this was a raid, so the most important was speed. Not only that but he planned this raid in secret. Unless this sa'angreal was his (unlikely), would he really have been able get his hands on it so easely? Even as the Supreme Commander of the Light, it's not very subtle to ask for the most powerful usable sa'angreal the Light possesed, particularly considering the hostilities between the Aes Sedai at the time.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I've accepted yoniy0's answer about how angreal work. I may concede a few points but the fact remains LTT somehow handled as much saidin as Rand could with CK. The only explanation I can think of other than Brandon screwing up is that LTT had a sa'angreal that rivaled CK.

 

That's fine, no problem.

[Hagazussa]

Two times as it was meant to be used (Rand's thought), a third time when killing Ishamael. Luck shouldn't matter though. Everything I remember reading indicates if you go over the limit, you are burned out.

 

I do not think there is a automatic thing in take this up to 11 and burn out, but the more over your limit you go the bigger are the chances of it. A channeler's connection to the One Power is rather sturdy and we have seen characters go over their limits a few time and then they risk burning themselves out but they do not do it automatically.

 

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I've accepted yoniy0's answer about how angreal work. I may concede a few points but the fact remains LTT somehow handled as much saidin as Rand could with CK. The only explanation I can think of other than Brandon screwing up is that LTT had a sa'angreal that rivaled CK.

 

Well the man had decided to kill himself and being rather dramatic he could not use the kitchen knife so he just drew on the Power like crazy and just wanted to kill himself so he would not harm anyone else and I would imagine a channeler that just do not give a damned and do not care if he dies or burns out can draw allot more since he then are not scared or holding anything back.

[herid]

I asked this in another thread but it got buried there so want to have another go at it.

Can the Heroes of the Horn be killed or harmed in any way when they are called by the Horn?

They can while they wait in TAR but a comment by Birgitte suggests that they might be invincible when called by the Horn.

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us.

--TSR, CH52

 

It would be beyond strange if they were in some kind of god mode when called by the Horn, yet that's what Birgitte's comment seems to imply.

I suspect this is not really addressed in the books but perhaps I'm missing something.

[2RiversFan]

I asked this in another thread but it got buried there so want to have another go at it.

Can the Heroes of the Horn be killed or harmed in any way when they are called by the Horn?

They can while they wait in TAR but a comment by Birgitte suggests that they might be invincible when called by the Horn.

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us.

--TSR, CH52

 

It would be beyond strange if they were in some kind of god mode when called by the Horn, yet that's what Birgitte's comment seems to imply.

I suspect this is not really addressed in the books but perhaps I'm missing something.

 

We've not seen any way that they can be harmed, but when you consider that they dwell in T'A'R' and can be harmed there (i.e. Moghedian > Birgitte, TAR wolves dying etc.). I think a more appropriate question is whether the shadow understands that the heroes must be found and killed in T'A'R'.

[Durinax]

I asked this in another thread but it got buried there so want to have another go at it.

Can the Heroes of the Horn be killed or harmed in any way when they are called by the Horn?

They can while they wait in TAR but a comment by Birgitte suggests that they might be invincible when called by the Horn.

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us.

--TSR, CH52

 

It would be beyond strange if they were in some kind of god mode when called by the Horn, yet that's what Birgitte's comment seems to imply.

I suspect this is not really addressed in the books but perhaps I'm missing something.

 

We've not seen any way that they can be harmed, but when you consider that they dwell in T'A'R' and can be harmed there (i.e. Moghedian > Birgitte, TAR wolves dying etc.). I think a more appropriate question is whether the shadow understands that the heroes must be found and killed in T'A'R'.

well it could be easily argued that Heroes cannot be found in TAR unless they break the prescripts

[herid]

 

We've not seen any way that they can be harmed, but when you consider that they dwell in T'A'R' and can be harmed there (i.e. Moghedian > Birgitte, TAR wolves dying etc.). I think a more appropriate question is whether the shadow understands that the heroes must be found and killed in T'A'R'.

we know they can be harmed in TAR. that's not my question. what I want to know if they can be harmed in any way when they are called by the Horn.

[2RiversFan]

herid said:

we know they can be harmed in TAR. that's not my question. what I want to know if they can be harmed in any way when they are called by the Horn

I answered that question in my reply, though my wording was ambiguous because I continued into another direction.

 

We have not seen any way they can be harmed when called.

[herid]

sorry, I didn't mean to snap. I just didn't want the question to veer off in another direction as happened in the other thread.

[Hagazussa]

Are not the heroes more or less the souls of the dead made flesh temporarily when called by the horn, it would seam logical to me that such a being would not be killed if struck by a sword, they are already a dead soul called back by magick so would not then the same magick just put them back together again and send them back fighting? I do not know here I am just speculating but if I do not remember it wrong we never see a hero of the horn be actually harmed or killed while they are called onto a battlefield.

[Sid]

Well, Birgitte made it sound like when they're called by the Horn they're not there 'in the flesh', and the One Power can't touch them. I assume that normal weapons cannot harm them either. She was able to ride a horse on water and shoot an arrow that set a whole Seanchan ship on fire, so she certainly isn't following the normal rules of reality, almost like a reverse T'A'R.

 

If they can be harmed, it would have to be something different. Maybe destroying the Horn, or the Dark One breaking free, or the True Power, or balefire could harm them.

[Amandera]

I very much doubt they can be killed, they are essentially souls waiting for the Wheel to spin them out, and souls cannot be destroyed. I believe that's the case in TAR as well as when they are called by the Horn. For some reason or the other the Heroes were chosen by the Wheel and I don't think they can lose their status as Heroes of the Horn until the Wheel is done with them. That means I believe even if Elayne hadn't saved Birgitte, she would just go back to TAR once she died. I believe Moghedien could not fulfill her promise to Birgitte about separating her from Gaidal forever.

 

That said, they are not gods. Remember their victory was tied to how Rand did against Ishamael. When Ishamael pushed Rand back, they were pushed back as well and vice versa. They can be defeated, just not directly.

 

All of this is my personal thoughts of course.

[BFG]

Agree with Cem,

 

HotH can be defeated outside of TAR, but I don't think they can be destroyed - if anything did destroy them they'd just reappear back in TAR.

 

I think if they're in TAR they can be destroyed - but I don't think they could be found very easily.

[Whizbang]

They seem to be both in the world of drams and the real world. It seems to be a one way street, too. They can hurt things of the real world, but nothing of the real world can harm them, because they are still part of the dream. Maybe if a Dreamer were to enter TAR and attack them, they would be damaged. I dunno.

[FarShainMael]

Well, Birgitte made it sound like when they're called by the Horn they're not there 'in the flesh', and the One Power can't touch them. I assume that normal weapons cannot harm them either. She was able to ride a horse on water and shoot an arrow that set a whole Seanchan ship on fire, so she certainly isn't following the normal rules of reality, almost like a reverse T'A'R.

 

Birgitte's arrows are very interesting. They can cross from T'A'R into reality, as they did here, and also when she was ripped out of T'A'R by Moghedien.

[aranyaka]

Sammael had traveled Shaido to Illian and Ghealdan. But why Ghealdan? I don't think he knew Perrin was there. So what was his purpose?

[Durinax]

Sammael had traveled Shaido to Illian and Ghealdan. But why Ghealdan? I don't think he knew Perrin was there. So what was his purpose?

to spread them about and cause the westlands to distrust/hate the Aiel even more. Which by extension would make them distrust Rand and less likely to join with him

[herid]

Well, Birgitte made it sound like when they're called by the Horn they're not there 'in the flesh', and the One Power can't touch them. I assume that normal weapons cannot harm them either. She was able to ride a horse on water and shoot an arrow that set a whole Seanchan ship on fire, so she certainly isn't following the normal rules of reality, almost like a reverse T'A'R.

 

If they can be harmed, it would have to be something different. Maybe destroying the Horn, or the Dark One breaking free, or the True Power, or balefire could harm them.

That's what I figured too although I don't think that TP can touch them given that the OP can not. Also balefire is OP so it should not be able to touch them. Most likely this whole issue won't be explored since otherwise the Light side will have a small army of uber soldiers in god mode at the LB. This leads me to believe that tHoH will only play a perfunctory role in the LB and also makes the possibility of Rand dying and coming back to win the LB as a HoH very unlikely.

I very much doubt they can be killed, they are essentially souls waiting for the Wheel to spin them out, and souls cannot be destroyed. I believe that's the case in TAR as well as when they are called by the Horn.

Souls can be destroyed in TAR as Hopper explained to Perrin. It's what's happened to Hopper himslef when he died. Birgitte also explained to Nyn in the same scene I quoted that while in TAR tHoH are as vulnerable as anybody.

 

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us. Here, all is part of the dream, and the One Power could destroy me as easily as you. More easily. I told you; I am an archer, a sometime soldier, no more.

--TSR, CH 52”

Edited October 11, 2012 by herid

[Whizbang]

 

As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us. Here, all is part of the dream, and the One Power could destroy me as easily as you. More easily. I told you; I am an archer, a sometime soldier, no more.

--TSR, CH 52”

 

 

 

Brigette should take some lessons from Perrin, then she'd have nothing to fear from the OP. It seems to me that anyone could be indestructable in TAR, as long as they just ignore/disbelieve whatever is attacking them. "You cannot hurt me, because this is not real"