Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[ShenAnCalhar]

For what it's worth, here's what I think a shield held by six channelers looks like:

 

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/zly7o

 

You can see the six points as described prior to Dumai's Wells. The source lies directly behind where the six points intersect on the concave side of the lens. Shields are described as being elastic (notably after Nynaeve heals Logain). A shield held by a single channeler is more elastic - if the shielded person reaches towards the Source with enough strength, forcing the lens to become less convex to the point that the Source breaks the plane of the shield, it shatters. A shield held by six is far less elastic, but not brittle. Once any section of the shield is tied off, it becomes brittle, and breakable via the trick Lews Therin showed Rand. Once a section is broken, the remaining sections each need to pick up the slack, so to speak, making the overall structure more elastic, and therefore more prone to catastrophic failure.

 

That's always been my perception, anyway.

[yoniy0]

Calling what I say inaccurate is just as much an offense, mine was just delivered with a bit more snark. Everything I've said in this exchange has been accurate.

Well, I can see that I'm not going to convince you of the merits of my argument (although you neatly ignored my evidence that you were wrong about how many AS were present, and therefore wrong about it being a single Circle), so I'm good with leaving it at that. However, in this thing you're mistaken. Attacking somebody's position is acceptable -- even encouraged -- around here. Attacking them, however, is strictly forbidden. Your remark about distinctions did not go to my arguments but to my ability to form one, and there you crossed the line. I recommend you reread the portion of our code of conduct dealing with bullying (and might I add, while directing this sort of language at me only got you a friendly reminder, receiving complaints from other members that you behaved in this fashion toward them would have earned you a warning).

[Thrasymachus]

I appreciate that as a staff member, you're not throwing your weight around. However, I think you've got some blinders on when it comes to evaluating personal attacks versus argument critiques. The point about distinctions was that your argument lacked them, and wasn't taking into account accurate distinctions that have been made regarding weaving both in the text and on commentary about the text. It's often easy to conflate a critique of an argument with an attack on a person, because arguments are made by people, and it's way too easy to infer that pointing out flaws in an argument equates to pointing out flaws in the person. And your critique of my argument as being inaccurate is just as easily conflated with a personal attack as my critique of your argument as lacking distinctions. The main difference is that my critique is true, whereas yours, not so much.

 

With regard to the number of sisters in the room with Nyn and Logain, it's largely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if there were 12 sisters, 20 sisters or a hundred sisters in the room. The text itself is clear. A single, very strong shield was placed on Logain. The link that formed the shield couldn't have been more than 13 sisters. The glow of saidar surrounding nearly every sister in the room is also irrelevant, because nothing says they were all contributing to the link that formed the shield or that they were all trying to shield him. They could have been getting ready to wrap Logain up in Air, or burn him to a cinder. If there were more than one circle shielding him, or more than one shield placed on him, the text would have mentioned that, as it always has when more than one shield is shielding someone.

[yoniy0]

I want it very clear that I'm not debating the issue. I have many reservations about what you're saying, but voicing them would only get in the way of the important bit - your adherence to DM's code of conduct. You did not say my argument ignored important distinctions. You inferred that I should go get some (cheap, are they?), because obviously I have to be incapable of appreciating the delicate ones you've made for rejecting your position. Hear me when I say this: in expressing yourself that way, you've crossed a line. In the future, don't, is all I'm saying (but to that, I will hold you, as I do everyone else).

[Daniel Hill]

Did perrin ever tell faile about him being a wolfbrother.

[Durinax]

Did perrin ever tell faile about him being a wolfbrother.

yes, I believe it was in tSH originally, or at least thats when she learns about his super senses. if not then, then she learned it in ToM during their anniversary thing

[yoniy0]

It was TSR.

[Vardar]

Yoni is correct about linking. There are many examples, especially when Ny and Elayne learn about linking. It forms one single weave ,one channeler cannot tie off part of a linked weave, because when linked only one person can channel. That part is not up for debate. It's fact, in the book.

 

Now back to the shields, Recall how the "channeling conduit" is described. The same as the river of Sadiar, impossibly narrow yet vastly endless (Or some such drivel), in other words, it's difficult to discern the size of it. Those individual "soft points" he was feeling were individual shields. If each point was a piece of a shield, like pieces of a pizza, he would only need to shatter one to be able to channel again, since something would flow through it.

 

I believe it's just a quirky nature of channeling, the conduit doesn't have a size to it, persay, so when you shield someone and cut them off, the shield because as vast as the conduit, multiple shields meet at some point in that endless vastness, and yet each completely shut off the flow.

 

You kinda have to look beyond the pipe everyone is picturing in their minds. It's not exactly like that. It's not 3 dimensional.

 

That's about as good as I can explain it in text, the soft points meeting was how Rand's mind rationalized it.

[yoniy0]

Thanks Vard. Another situation to suggest what I'm saying is when Elayne gets carried away by the BA. They don't seem to be Linked (for the sheer amount of different weaves, as well as the fact that Asne used the BF-rod at the same time someone else was throwing fireballs), and yet Elayne is Shielded. This isn't absolute -- it's possible two of them Linked and Shielded Elayne while the others dealt with the army -- but it remains highly suggestive.

[Vardar]

Thanks Vard. Another situation to suggest what I'm saying is when Elayne gets carried away by the BA. They don't seem to be Linked (for the sheer amount of different weaves, as well as the fact that Asne used the BF-rod at the same time someone else was throwing fireballs), and yet Elayne is Shielded. This isn't absolute -- it's possible two of them Linked and Shielded Elayne while the others dealt with the army -- but it remains highly suggestive.

 

Yep. They weren't linked. There are 0 examples of someone being linked and able to channel if they're not controlling the circle, and every person who speaks of it says they can't. Hell even the forsaken mention it, when Demandred tells someone to link with him and he notes she won't because she'd be helpless cause only he could channel then.

[nool]

Did Berelain and Rhuarc have some love thing going on with each other in Lord of Chaos?

no Rhuarc and Berelain kind of adopted each other, Amys even went as far as to give her the daughters kiss or whatever

I had the impression that Berelain tried her seducing skills on Rhuarc, but he (or someone else) nipped it in the bud pretty quickly and effectively. It never says it, but there's something in they're early dialog that seemed to hint at it. I don't have quotes.

 

Rhurac made it quite clear to her (possibly in a physical way) in the Stone of Tear that he wouldn't tolerate her flirting with him. It's mentioned in LoC - or at least alluded to.

[Vardar]

Did Berelain and Rhuarc have some love thing going on with each other in Lord of Chaos?

no Rhuarc and Berelain kind of adopted each other, Amys even went as far as to give her the daughters kiss or whatever

I had the impression that Berelain tried her seducing skills on Rhuarc, but he (or someone else) nipped it in the bud pretty quickly and effectively. It never says it, but there's something in they're early dialog that seemed to hint at it. I don't have quotes.

 

Rhurac made it quite clear to her (possibly in a physical way) in the Stone of Tear that he wouldn't tolerate her flirting with him. It's mentioned in LoC - or at least alluded to.

 

 

He alluded too it when he broke up the Faile and Ber fight. He said he'd have another talk with her like the one about her flirting. (He didn't use flirting)

[Thrasymachus]

Nobody said anything about the subordinate members of a circle being able to weave independently. I said the leader of a circle can tie off the the contribution of a member of the circle in order to maintain the power of a linked weave, thereby allowing that member to leave the circle. The members of a circle contribute their access to the Power to the leader of the circle, who weaves that Power into whatever she wants. The amount of Power that's used in a weave is independent of the weave itself. Sorelia can weave the weave that forms a gateway. That's how she taught Travelling to Cadsuane. She cannot, however, provide enough Power to make the gateway work. Tying off a weave, whether in a circle or individually, is about maintaining the flow of power into the weave, not maintaining the stability of the configuration of the weave itself.

 

There's further evidence that the stability of a weave is a function of its configuration, and not the amount of Power that's being used to sustain it. When Elayne tries to pick apart the weave for a gateway, she's altering its structure, and it becomes more and more unstable until she loses control of it, and it collapses into a new, stable configuration that has devastating effects. She's holding that weave while she's doing it, providing the Power it needs to maintain its effects, through the whole process. One of the reasons the gateway collapsed into such a large explosion is because the amount of Power required to form and sustain a working gateway is quite large, so when the weave collapsed into something else, the effects of that new weave are also quite impressive. That's also why Aiel learn to pick apart weaves using weak, simple weaves. So when they mess it up, which is inevitable, the effects of the new weave the original collapses into will be commensurate with the Power used to create the original weave.

 

If a "linked shield" were about multiple individual channelers not being linked stacking their individual shields on a single person so they could continue to weave other stuff, there wouldn't be this stuff in the text about a circle of thirteen being sufficient to cut off any man from the Source, nor about a circle of six being sufficient to hold the shield of any man once cut off. They wouldn't form circles at all to shield, so there wouldn't be two circles of thirteen shielding Rand in ToM, there'd be 26 sisters shielding him, and there is a difference, the difference between two very strong shields and 26 weak ones. And four of the six in the circle that was shielding Rand at Dumai's Wells wouldn't have had to leave. They could contribute their efforts to creating that dome shield or throwing fireballs while maintaining their shields on Rand. The episode with Elayne doesn't suggest a linked shield either. She was stunned, and lost the Source, and any one of the BA could shield her at that point, and maintain the shield. Elayne's strong, but she's not as strong as Nynaeve, and she's not strong enough to break through a shield held by a single moderately strong sister on her own.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Thrasymachus

[yoniy0]

I said the leader of a circle can tie off the the contribution of a member of the circle in order to maintain the power of a linked weave, thereby allowing that member to leave the circle.

Yes, I thought to make that point for you, but I decided you'll do that better than I can. To the point, what you say is possible (I don't recall any piece of evidence clearly excluding it), but it's certainly never been shown to be true. It's speculation. Personally, I doubt it's possible, since that would be a game-changer. We'd see it used, I think, almost certainly.

 

The amount of Power that's used in a weave is independent of the weave itself. Sorelia can weave the weave that forms a gateway. That's how she taught Travelling to Cadsuane. She cannot, however, provide enough Power to make the gateway work. Tying off a weave, whether in a circle or individually, is about maintaining the flow of power into the weave, not maintaining the stability of the configuration of the weave itself.

That's certainly true. I don't think it has bearing on the issue at hand, however. We've only seen tying of a weave by the one who was maintaining it, never the tying of the source of the power required.

 

One of the reasons the gateway collapsed into such a large explosion is because the amount of Power required to form and sustain a working gateway is quite large, so when the weave collapsed into something else, the effects of that new weave are also quite impressive. That's also why Aiel learn to pick apart weaves using weak, simple weaves. So when they mess it up, which is inevitable, the effects of the new weave the original collapses into will be commensurate with the Power used to create the original weave.

That the Aiel do that is indeed suggestive, and I tend to agree with you. That's not 100%, but I still agree. Again, I don't see how that reflects on whether the one melding the flows can tie a give person's contribution then release them from the Ring.

 

there wouldn't be this stuff in the text about a circle of thirteen being sufficient to cut off any man from the Source, nor about a circle of six being sufficient to hold the shield of any man once cut off.

There isn't. It's said six AS can hold any man Shielded (but I don't think it specifically said "a Circle of six", certainly not exclusively), but cutting off someone from the Source isn't the same as holding them. For that, you most certainly need a Circle, which is why a Circle of 13 is this dangerous.

 

there wouldn't be two circles of thirteen shielding Rand in ToM, there'd be 26 sisters shielding him

Only, they wouldn't know whether he was holding the Source when he arrived, hence the Rings. Later, well, why make a change? BTW I think it's highly suggestive that we hear about there being Rings to begin with. We've never heard about it before when someone was Shielded. Why is that?

 

They could contribute their efforts to creating that dome shield or throwing fireballs while maintaining their shields on Rand.

Not necessarily. For example, Moiraine was very disappointed that Merean was able to face her as equals while holding three people with flows of Air. With all those WO attacking, they will need their full strengths, regardless of whether they were free to weave on their own.

 

The episode with Elayne doesn't suggest a linked shield either. She was stunned, and lost the Source, and any one of the BA could shield her at that point, and maintain the shield. Elayne's strong, but she's not as strong as Nynaeve, and she's not strong enough to break through a shield held by a single moderately strong sister on her own.

She wasn't stunned by the time they got to the gates. She contemplates channeling the moment the Shield is gone, but being blind she discards the possibility. However, according to 13th depository's Linda, Liandrin is level 9 (she's the strongest of the Blacks in her original group). Elayne, at level 15, is likely too strong for any one sister to hold (level 8 and below), although it should be mentioned that Falion and Ispan held Nynaeve after they caught her unawares (both level 8, and she's 18). They were Linked, however. Still, I accept that we can't rule out two of them Shielding her while the rest were dealing with Guybon's men.

[Durinax]

is Sulin still alive?

[Suttree]

is Sulin still alive?

 

Yeah she is with Perrin at the FoM.

[Edorion]

Anyone know if Amazon preorders (thinking about ordering through DM) typically arrive on the release date or a few days before/after? Im not doing it if I won't have it on release date, too easy to walk into Target or something and scoop it up and won't want to wait even another day by then im sure

[Thrasymachus]

Thrasymachus, on 21 September 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

 

I said the leader of a circle can tie off the the contribution of a member of the circle in order to maintain the power of a linked weave, thereby allowing that member to leave the circle.

 

Yes, I thought to make that point for you, but I decided you'll do that better than I can. To the point, what you say is possible (I don't recall any piece of evidence clearly excluding it), but it's certainly never been shown to be true. It's speculation. Personally, I doubt it's possible, since that would be a game-changer. We'd see it used, I think, almost certainly.

 

Well, if I'm right, we do see it used,at Dumai's Wells, on Rand's shield. My suspicion is that if you tie off a part of a link so you can maintain the power of a weave, you can't use the power that comes from that part of the link for anything else. And like I said before, I admit that it's speculation, but it's a stronger speculation than that it's a routine practice to stack individual weaver's shields on a target and call that one shield, especially when there are examples of multiple shields being on a single target and those shields being referred to in the plural.

 

Thrasymachus, on 21 September 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

 

The amount of Power that's used in a weave is independent of the weave itself. Sorelia can weave the weave that forms a gateway. That's how she taught Travelling to Cadsuane. She cannot, however, provide enough Power to make the gateway work. Tying off a weave, whether in a circle or individually, is about maintaining the flow of power into the weave, not maintaining the stability of the configuration of the weave itself.

That's certainly true. I don't think it has bearing on the issue at hand, however. We've only seen tying of a weave by the one who was maintaining it, never the tying of the source of the power required.

 

On the contrary, it is central to the strength of this speculation. Channelers are sources of power for weave, they are also who weave that power into a stable configuration that produces the desired effects. When a channeler ties off a weave, they are tying off that weave's access to the One Power. Circles have multiple sources of power, if only one weaver. Tying off a weave that was created through a circle is no different than tying off a weave that was created by an individual. You tie off the source(s) of power feeding into the elemental threads, you don't pin down the form of the weave.

 

Thrasymachus, on 21 September 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

 

there wouldn't be two circles of thirteen shielding Rand in ToM, there'd be 26 sisters shielding him

Only, they wouldn't know whether he was holding the Source when he arrived, hence the Rings. Later, well, why make a change? BTW I think it's highly suggestive that we hear about there being Rings to begin with. We've never heard about it before when someone was Shielded. Why is that?

 

Actually, this was after the point where that Sedai had figured out the weave to tell if a man was holding the Power and whether, though not what, he was weaving. They could easily have been able to tell whether he was holding the Source. And I rather doubt he was, or made any attempt to do so. He wouldn't have needed to, and he wouldn't have wanted to alarm them.

 

And this is not at all the first time we hear about circles maintaining the shield on someone. It's all over the place. Two yellows were in a circle maintaining the shield on Leane. The Sedai in the coach were in a circle maintaining the shield on Egwene after she was captured. Logain was held in a linked circle in Caemlyn. You yourself mention when Elayne was held by a linked shield.

 

Thrasymachus, on 21 September 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

 

They could contribute their efforts to creating that dome shield or throwing fireballs while maintaining their shields on Rand.

Not necessarily. For example, Moiraine was very disappointed that Merean was able to face her as equals while holding three people with flows of Air. With all those WO attacking, they will need their full strengths, regardless of whether they were free to weave on their own.

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Not only is it imperative that they not lose custody of him, but if they were to lose custody of him, they're smart enough to be aware that he'd be pissed. They just beat him every day multiple times a day for like two weeks. Rand by himself would have decimated the entire camp if he had gotten free, and he wouldn't have needed the Shaido or Perrin's gang or the Asha'man's help to do it. Keeping Rand contained was more important than contributing the the effort of defending against the Shaido and Perrin's gang until it became apparent that without the help of some of the shielding Sedai, they'd lose. If they could have contributed to the defense while still maintaining the shield on Rand, even weak contributions like small fireballs or something, they would have done that first. But we don't see the individual soft points getting weaker before they get tied off, so they clearly didn't even try to do both shield and defense first before it became apparent that they couldn't. Perhaps it was because they couldn't because they were in a link?

 

Elayne also doesn't try to break through the shield while she's in the cart. Maybe she could have broken through, but why take the risk? Birgitte was coming to the rescue, and it would surely have alerted the others, who might decide that a dead queen is better than a free one, if they can't have a captive one. But I tend to think not because it's also pretty clearly established that you can be much weaker than someone and still manage to hold a shield on them, as long as you can get it on them in the first place. It's that latter that requires you to be stronger.

[yoniy0]

Anyone know if Amazon preorders (thinking about ordering through DM) typically arrive on the release date or a few days before/after?

It varies, is all I can say with certainty. I think I heard of them shipping early to get it to destination by release day, but then again last time there were posters here complaining that their copy was in the mail and everyone else already had theirs. With something like this, that has no shortage of supply come release day, I don't think the pre-ordering paradigm has any real use.

For what it's worth, I'm going to pick the audiobook the moment it's available, and wait for the ebook to read it rather than listen. With e-delivery, there won't be no surprises

 

And like I said before, I admit that it's speculation, but it's a stronger speculation than that it's a routine practice to stack individual weaver's shields on a target and call that one shield, especially when there are examples of multiple shields being on a single target and those shields being referred to in the plural.

My response is threefold. First, I haven't seen you acknowledge the speculative nature of your argument until now, so I apologize for pressing this as hard as I did (it was my intention to confront you with it, which is needless once you've conceded the point). Second, I don't think it's odd that they'd refer to stacked Shields as one if that's what they operate as (which is my position, based on the way Shielding worked from the first books), and third, I concluded a search on the word "Shields" in the first 11 books and didn't find a single instance were it's used to describe stacked Shielding. Where is it you saw it used that way?

 

On the contrary, it is central to the strength of this speculation. Channelers are sources of power for weave, they are also who weave that power into a stable configuration that produces the desired effects. When a channeler ties off a weave, they are tying off that weave's access to the One Power. Circles have multiple sources of power, if only one weaver. Tying off a weave that was created through a circle is no different than tying off a weave that was created by an individual. You tie off the source(s) of power feeding into the elemental threads, you don't pin down the form of the weave.

Conceded. Tying is done at the source. However, and this is key, the power of all involved channelers in a Ring is melded together. The one leading is the source for every weave, I think. This is hinted to, for example, by the fact that the light of saidar around female channelers extends to form a ring around everyone involved (encompassing the 'single channeler', if you will). The distinction here is this: when Rand Linked with Nynaeve, saidar flowed from her to him, but it was he who formed specific weaves (which are what has to be tied).

 

Actually, this was after the point where that Sedai had figured out the weave to tell if a man was holding the Power and whether, though not what, he was weaving.

They could, but would they? The Dragon Reborn is on their doorstep. Do you seriously believe they'd call someone who has facility with the new weave to check whether or not he's channeling before Shielding him? No, I think they'd want to be safe first, ask questions later. Their nervousness is shown even after he's Shielded and escorted by Warders, in the way quite a few sisters still embrace saidar upon seeing him.

 

And this is not at all the first time we hear about circles maintaining the shield on someone. It's all over the place. Two yellows were in a circle maintaining the shield on Leane. The Sedai in the coach were in a circle maintaining the shield on Egwene after she was captured. Logain was held in a linked circle in Caemlyn. You yourself mention when Elayne was held by a linked shield.

It's not the first time, since I indicated that Falion and Ispan were Linked when they caught Nynaeve by surprise. However, the Browns holding Leane the first time Egwene went to see her weren't Linked (the glow shone around Felaana, not around the both of them). In similar fashion, it was only Nagora Shielding her the next time it's mentioned. When was that other incident you refer to?

Likewise, the sisters carrying Egwene to the Tower weren't Linked. Katerine took care of Shielding Egwene on her own, and the way we know this is that we saw her do it. Egwene wasn't Shielded when she woke up.

Finally, I don't believe there was anyone around to tell us how Logain was Shielded in Camelyn, and what do you mean I mentioned myself that Elayne was held by a Ring? I did no such thing.

 

Keeping Rand contained was more important than contributing the the effort of defending against the Shaido and Perrin's gang until it became apparent that without the help of some of the shielding Sedai, they'd lose. If they could have contributed to the defense while still maintaining the shield on Rand, even weak contributions like small fireballs or something, they would have done that first. But we don't see the individual soft points getting weaker before they get tied off, so they clearly didn't even try to do both shield and defense first before it became apparent that they couldn't. Perhaps it was because they couldn't because they were in a link?

Or perhaps because they couldn't spare enough strength for it to be noticed? Remember, that they had to hold Rand is true, but they had no knowledge of a method for him to escape if the Shields were tied. It's simply Tower custom to maintain the Shields rather than tie them off (as we later learn). Nynaeve has let Moghedien escape in a similar fashion, because of her ignorance. So, they didn't realize that by tying it off they risked his getting away.

 

Elayne also doesn't try to break through the shield while she's in the cart. Maybe she could have broken through, but why take the risk? Birgitte was coming to the rescue, and it would surely have alerted the others, who might decide that a dead queen is better than a free one, if they can't have a captive one. But I tend to think not because it's also pretty clearly established that you can be much weaker than someone and still manage to hold a shield on them, as long as you can get it on them in the first place. It's that latter that requires you to be stronger.

Elayne said they took no risks in Shielding her, meaning she estimated she would not be able to break the Shield (anything else is contradictory). And while you can be weaker and still hold a Shield on someone, you can't be too weak. Nynaeve even worried that she might not be strong enough to Shield Logain, and if that's the case (her being level 18, he's probably around 24) then it's unlikely any one sister, even the strongest like Elderith, could've held Elayne (of course, nothing is certain with these strength estimations; they might not be on a linear line, for one, or the nature of the Power might make a difference at different points along the spectrum).

[Hagazussa]

Thank you all who replied about stacking shields, it have been very informative to read the replies.

 

I have another question, at one point in the books Rand is in a fight and he perhaps channels a bit more than he should and he thinks that he can feel where his connection to The One Power is connected to his body. My question then is where is this? I have always seen this point where spirit meets flesh so to speak to be the top of the head especially since Jordan was so interested in Hindu mythology and some of what he describes are similar to the ideas of the Sushumna the most important Nadi in Yoga philosophy which then in that belief can be in some individuals extended beyond the crown to give the person enlightenment and following that supernatural powers. Now this have off course nothing to do with anything but since Jordan was interested in Hindu mythology he could have been inspired by that that placed the connection to The One Power right on top of a Channeler's noggin.

 

My boyfriend however do not agree with me here, he says the connection probably sit in the heart since that in most works of fantasy is seen as the central part of the person. So instead of me and my boyfriend arguing about this for countless hours, yes we are geeks I decided to ask the question here, where on the physical body of a channeler do his or her connection to the One Power sit?

[Thrasymachus]

I admitted it was speculative way back with my analogy on stacking porcelain plates. Whenever the text isn't clear on how things work, all we have is speculation. Honestly, I'd rather like to have a word of God on the issue, because either option presented so far is "game-changing" as you put it.

 

Re: the new question about where the Power comes from out of the channeler's body, I've always considered it to be a whole-body phenomenon, or at least something that encompasses the entirety or at least majority of the nervous system, to account for the radically heightened senses. But then, I got the impression from Nynaeve Healing Logain that the "link" that was severed was somewhere in the brain, but I'm sure I was reading into that. Channeling, however, must involve the brain in some way because it's intentional, directed activity, and that implies control by the pre-frontal cortex, and because some weaves seem to require the use of gestures, though that may be as a result of habit, the part of the brain that's responsible for voluntary motor control may also be implicated.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Does it bother anyone else that Snakes and Foxes is a game that "can't be won," but based on the descriptions (mostly at the end of ToM), you can make a toss of the dice where the Snakes and Foxes don't move at all? Doesn't it follow that if you have a hot hand with the dice, the game is in fact winnable?

[Sephie913]

Does it bother anyone else that Snakes and Foxes is a game that "can't be won," but based on the descriptions (mostly at the end of ToM), you can make a toss of the dice where the Snakes and Foxes don't move at all? Doesn't it follow that if you have a hot hand with the dice, the game is in fact winnable?

 

Obviously, in CAN be won. The odds, however, are stacked so high against the player(s) that before ToM, no one knew anyone who had done it without cheating. Just because it's POSSIBLE to flip a coin 1000 times and have it land on heads every time, doesn't mean you've ever met anyone who's done it.

 

- - -

 

Jumara(sp) are the Worms, right? I know RJ's answer to what the Worms become is "nothing you'd want to meet", but is there a general agreement as to what that is, exactly?

 

And what about how they were made in the first place? similar to trollocs? or a mystery, like the Gholam?

[Hagazussa]

Re: the new question about where the Power comes from out of the channeler's body, I've always considered it to be a whole-body phenomenon, or at least something that encompasses the entirety or at least majority of the nervous system, to account for the radically heightened senses. But then, I got the impression from Nynaeve Healing Logain that the "link" that was severed was somewhere in the brain, but I'm sure I was reading into that. Channeling, however, must involve the brain in some way because it's intentional, directed activity, and that implies control by the pre-frontal cortex, and because some weaves seem to require the use of gestures, though that may be as a result of habit, the part of the brain that's responsible for voluntary motor control may also be implicated.

 

I doubt if it is the brain itself, or the nervous system. Channeling is a spiritual thing and while of course it is a conscious activity and therefore directed by the mind, the Power itself is probably drawn into the channeler through some sort of spiritual or magickal nexus rather than a physical one. I doubt that a channeler brain is any different from a non channeler brain. The magick system in WoT seam to me to be a pure energy system and not a mental one, they are using a spiritual energy and not a physical one.

 

Off course if I where to draw more on the comparison I used earlier about the nadi in Yogic theory then they are spiritual but they are in some ways the spiritual representatives of nerves and you could have a similar concept in WoT since similar ideas are used in fiction before. If Logain had a missing piece in his noggin I do not think it was a physical fault but rather a spiritual nexus that had been cut.

 

As for hand gestures they are not needed in the WoT system they are just a way to focus the mind. Moiraine has her staff which acts as a focus for her, she even explains this, but it is not needed for her to channel it just makes it easier, if I am not mistaken she also dance as a focus for her weaves in New Spring at one point. Some of the other channelers also use things as a focus like for example hand gestures, but if these acts are needed and not just a way to make things easier then they are blocks.

[Stitched up by a postie]

A few questions on completely unrelated topics:

 

1) Is there anything that mandates Logain's future glory being in service of the Light?

 

2) When Moridin went into the land of the Finns, was retrieving Lanfear his main aim or just a bonus? I was wondering whether investigating Moiraine's condition and trying to close off access to her in Finnland by destroying the remaining doorway was part of his aim. He seems to have the monopoly on access to Dark prophecy and might have had some hint that her time there is important.

 

3) The Sea Folk Aes Sedai are all librarians with access to White Tower secrets, which can hardly be a coincidence, but why did they pick that role? They aren't Black Ajah and they don't seem to be leaking information to their own people (or to be in contact with them at all).