Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Mr Ares]

At the end of ToM, LTT and Rand have merged, making him the same age as the Forsaken.

Well, at the end of ToM all of his past lives merged making him infinately old, but physically he is twenty twoish.

These are both wrong. Rand is not the same age as the Chosen. he might have memories going back hundreds of years, but there are only twenty two years between his birth and where he is now - that makes him about twenty two. Having past life memories does not make you older. And Rand has forgotten everything before LTT anyway, so claims of infinite age are even more absurd. Rand's soul is ancient. Rand himself is a specific incarnation of that soul, and is not ancient. He was born at the end of the Aiel War. He's in his twenties.

Well, he is close to the age Moridin is then, if you are only talking about the age of the body they inhabit. Cyndane and the gar's while they were alive too were said to be in their twenties. So he is the same age as 2 of the 5 (I think) still left alive by your reckoning.

Transmigration and reincarnation are not the same thing. Moridin picked up where Ishamael left off, as did Cyndane with Lanfear, Osan'gar with Aginor and Aran'gar with Balthamel. Rand did not pick up where LTT left off. He began a new life, from birth. So no, Rand is in his early twenties, LTT was several hundred years old when he died, but those years are not added to Rand, nor is the intervening space when neither was alive. The transmigrated Chosen are in bodies many centuries younger than their actual ages, but they did actually live those lives. The previous inhabitants of the bodies were removed.

[TristanWebb]

You have a very odd take on it. Rand is LTT, they were never seperate. Rand is the contiuation of the dragon soul, just as Moridin is the contiuation of the Ishamael soul. That he didn't know he was the continuation makes little difference now that he has all of the memories and experiences of his past life.

 

Yes he had a second childhood, but he is still the same person, he told Min as much, and I am pretty sure the is Word of God that they are the same.

[Suttree]

You have a very odd take on it. Rand is LTT, they were never seperate. Rand is the contiuation of the dragon soul, just as Moridin is the contiuation of the Ishamael soul. That he didn't know he was the continuation makes little difference now that he has all of the memories and experiences of his past life.

 

Yes he had a second childhood, but he is still the same person, he told Min as much, and I am pretty sure the is Word of God that they are the same.

 

That they share the same soul yes it is Word of God. The rest has still been vigorously debated throughout the fandom. There is a distinct difference between being reborn and transmigrated however.

[yoniy0]

But it might be bridged by complete integration of former memories, such as Rand has underwent. By his own account, he now remembers LTT's whole life, and personality wise they have always been the same man (although he claims his psyche is more stable this time around, owing in large to Tam's influence). The distinction seems superficial to me (both Rand and a Transmigrated FS retain the same memories and personality of their respective former lives. Only his 'consciousness' could be said to differ, as opposed to theirs, but what exactly is a 'consciousness', if not a melding of memory and personality?)

Edited July 3, 2012 by yoniy0

[Durinax]

(although he claims his psyche is more stable this time around, owing in large to Tam's influence).

I think saying he is more stable this time is wrong, that makes LTT sound insane or at least off his rocker.

 

I think that it is the fact Rand is more grounded this time when compared to the last that is the main difference

[Mr Ares]

You have a very odd take on it. Rand is LTT, they were never seperate. Rand is the contiuation of the dragon soul, just as Moridin is the contiuation of the Ishamael soul. That he didn't know he was the continuation makes little difference now that he has all of the memories and experiences of his past life.

 

Yes he had a second childhood, but he is still the same person, he told Min as much, and I am pretty sure the is Word of God that they are the same.

They were separate. When Rand was born, there was no LTT. It was only during the course of the series that LTT appeared in Rand's head. Even now, it is the addition of LTT to Rand. Moridin is Ishamael in a new body, something which is quite different to Rand being a new person with LTT's memories integrated. Rand is, if anything, closer to Mat. Do you want to claim Mat is several centuries old and the same person as all his memories?

 

Edit: Also, if you want Word of God, how about this:

Question

The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

Robert Jordan

 

They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I have cobbled together.

Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Mr Ares

[Terez]

Mat only remembers bits and pieces of the memories he got from the 'Finns, and beyond that, none of them were his past lives. In the WoT world, a soul has certain recurring personality traits, despite the differences in genetics and upbringing. As Rand says, they were not two men and never had been. Rand believes he is over four hundred years old for all he remembers childhood being not long ago. It's a strange and unique situation, but that doesn't change the fact.

[yoniy0]

Nor that we have Birgitte's admission that she's always the same person (Rand's in unequivocal, but some might suspect Brandon as being responsible for it -- myself included). Canon is canon, but what RJ says about his world and what he writes isn't always strictly the same (and, presented with the dilemma, I go with what's in the books).

[Terez]

Not sure what you're getting at there. What's the contradiction?

[Finnssss22]

By Rand's own admission in ToM51, he is not the same as LTT.

They may share knowledge and memories but not personalities or the same strength of will/character.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Finnssss

[yoniy0]

What I was getting at is this:

Yet she was still the same woman who had done every one of the things that formed the heart of those legends and more besides.

I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him. I'm not going to change just because I remember--I was the same. I'm me. And I always have been me.

[...]

And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one [...] This time, I was raised better.

And then there's what RJ said quoted above (which is contradictory to some degree, even if we can skirt it over). Meaning that I support the position that Rand is in a much more similar situation to that of a Transmigrated FS than Mat is (in fact, in Mat's case they are just memories, and nothing of personality -- except those same traits that would drive someone to bargain with the 'finns).

 

So, Finnssss, by Rand's admission he is "the same", even if there are differences. They are not intrinsic, not relating to who he is.

[Terez]

The RJ quote is not contradictory at all. He's speaking specifically about the perspective of people in the world; if they don't have past life memories then they have no reason to believe (other than theology) that their past lives are actually them, or that death is not the end for them, and thus they fear it. As for the 'raised better' thing, I think that's a Brandonism for several reasons.

[Hyronimus]

Don't know about labeling things Brandomisms, easier to go with the book as written.

[TristanWebb]

The book as written says they are the same but he had additional experiences that further shaped him.

[Luckers]

I also think that was a Brandonism, though probably for different reasons. Terez and I hold intrinsically divergent postions when it comes to the question of LTT and Rand.

[yoniy0]

The RJ quote is not contradictory at all. He's speaking specifically about the perspective of people in the world;

How do you figure, regarding the first one? He seems to say quite clearly that LTT's personality wasn't reincarnated in Rand.

[Maleshub]

I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him. I'm not going to change just because I remember--I was the same. I'm me. And I always have been me.

[...]

And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one [...] This time, I was raised better.

 

One of the most bloody confusing conversations I've read in WoT. Blood and bloody ashes, that was too philosophical. I was lost. Another flaming issue is Rand's bloody ancient eyes. When LTT was fully integrated in his flaming mind, his bloody eyes changed.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Theodril

[yoniy0]

Hey! That's plagiarism.

 

I don't know, it's pretty common (in literature in particular) to assume one can tell a person's experience from the cast of his eyes. I've never done so IRL that I can recall, but I do automatically know whether I'm going to like someone from the look on their face, so... Perhaps.

[Durinax]

Hey! That's plagiarism.

 

I don't know, it's pretty common (in literature in particular) to assume one can tell a person's experience from the cast of his eyes. I've never done so IRL that I can recall, but I do automatically know whether I'm going to like someone from the look on their face, so... Perhaps.

the 1000 yard stare? Its the only one I have heard of

[dhammett11]

Chapter 5 of ACoS is titled "A Broken Crown" and, as you'll recall features Rand's de-coronation of Colaveare. Has anyone else ever speculated if in some twist this turns out to be the broken crown associated with Perrin (the Saldean one being a red-herring)?

[FarShainMael]

Hey! That's plagiarism.

 

I don't know, it's pretty common (in literature in particular) to assume one can tell a person's experience from the cast of his eyes. I've never done so IRL that I can recall, but I do automatically know whether I'm going to like someone from the look on their face, so... Perhaps.

 

I can't, OTOH, and I put this down to Asperger's, so I find this very interesting indeed.

 

Here's a curious little quiz on the subject:

 

http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/Faces/EyesTest.aspx

 

I got Every Single One wrong!!

 

(Please note: The Baron-Cohen in the website title is NOT Sacha B-C, the comedian, but Professor Simon B-C, an academic specialising in psychopathology. And no, I don't think they're related.. )

 

/OT

We now return you to your regular scheduled discussion.

 

PS to Chel: How many eyes have you got?? (This may seem nonsense to you if you haven't read any Humanity's Fire.)

[dhammett11]

Hey! That's plagiarism.

 

I don't know, it's pretty common (in literature in particular) to assume one can tell a person's experience from the cast of his eyes. I've never done so IRL that I can recall, but I do automatically know whether I'm going to like someone from the look on their face, so... Perhaps.

 

I can't, OTOH, and I put this down to Asperger's, so I find this very interesting indeed.

 

Here's a curious little quiz on the subject:

 

http://glennrowe.net...s/EyesTest.aspx

 

I got Every Single One wrong!!

 

(Please note: The Baron-Cohen in the website title is NOT Sacha B-C, the comedian, but Professor Simon B-C, an academic specialising in psychopathology. And no, I don't think they're related.. )

 

/OT

We now return you to your regular scheduled discussion.

 

PS to Chel: How many eyes have you got?? (This may seem nonsense to you if you haven't read any Humanity's Fire.)

 

Haven't read it and haven't a clue what you're talking about.

But now I'm curious! What do ya mean and does this somehow answer my question?

[Maleshub]

I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him. I'm not going to change just because I remember--I was the same. I'm me. And I always have been me.

[...]

And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one [...] This time, I was raised better.

 

One of the most bloody confusing conversations I've read in WoT. Blood and bloody ashes, that was too philosophical. I was lost. Another flaming issue is Rand's bloody ancient eyes. When LTT was fully integrated in his flaming mind, his bloody eyes changed.

Hey! That's plagiarism.

 

That's my flaming Uno nostalgia. He was flaming fun to read. I wish he flaming stayed around as much as flaming Thom Merrilin.

[Luckers]

I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him. I'm not going to change just because I remember--I was the same. I'm me. And I always have been me.

[...]

And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one [...] This time, I was raised better.

 

One of the most bloody confusing conversations I've read in WoT. Blood and bloody ashes, that was too philosophical. I was lost. Another flaming issue is Rand's bloody ancient eyes. When LTT was fully integrated in his flaming mind, his bloody eyes changed.

 

It's not philosophical, its some on meth having an existential crisis. All the right words are there, it just doesn't mean anything.

[Hyronimus]

how about someone who suffers major trauma, loses their memory.

 

They go on to make a new life for themselves only to remember their past (after a number of increasing and disturbing flashbacks).

 

When they finally remember who they are they can never be who they were but maybe that is for the best.

 

Add a childhood to that, well you're just never gonna be the same are you?