Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[yoniy0]

Didn't Ishmael transfer the BA command to Mesaana? If so, then Be'lal would have had to go through Mesaana to get his 13 AS? She would have had to agree to it and allow Liandrin and co. to go to Tear.

Well, (a) no, I don't think so (all FS have their contacts among the DF, who naturally do their bidding, but none have absolute command of them), certainly not as early as TDR (it doesn't fit with the way Mesaana spoke to Alviarin in ACoS prologue about serving her above all else save the Great Lord; she didn't remind Alviarin of an existing order, but rather explained the command for the first time). And (b) agreeing to a scheme is quite different from participating in it.

[Maleshub]

Didn't Ishmael transfer the BA command to Mesaana? If so, then Be'lal would have had to go through Mesaana to get his 13 AS? She would have had to agree to it and allow Liandrin and co. to go to Tear.

Well, (a) no, I don't think so (all FS have their contacts among the DF, who naturally do their bidding, but none have absolute command of them), certainly not as early as TDR (it doesn't fit with the way Mesaana spoke to Alviarin in ACoS prologue about serving her above all else save the Great Lord; she didn't remind Alviarin of an existing order, but rather explained the command for the first time). And (b) agreeing to a scheme is quite different from participating in it.

 

But didn't Mesaana stand behind deposing Siuan and raising "the fool" to the Amyrlin Seat? That was way before ACoS.

[TristanWebb]

There is plenty of evidence of Forsaken co-opting darkfriends that are working for different forsaken. If Be'lal came up to Liandrin and told her to go to Tear, she wouldn't hesitate to do it.

[yoniy0]

But didn't Mesaana stand behind deposing Siuan and raising "the fool" to the Amyrlin Seat? That was way before ACoS.

The initial idea came from Elaida, but Mesaana did approve and she did help it along. I'm not sure how that relates to whether or not she was behind the attempt to lure the wondergirls to Tear.

[Terez]

That's not clear at all, actually, for several reasons.

 

So you believe that the Else talking to Mat was Lanfear but the Else that summoned the Wonder girls was Mesaana, who then impersonated Lanfear when Egwene caught up to her?

 

No. I believe that Else was never Lanfear. She was Mesaana, when she met Mat, and again when she met the girls.

 

I understand the reasoning but that is under the premise that Mesaana sent the Wonder girls to Tear to be trapped as well. All we know for sure is that Mesaana was only trying to help Be'lal trap Rand. I don't remember any where it was stated that she was also trying to trap the girls.

 

Bait for the Net

 

We do have RJ's answer that Lanfear was indeed posing as Else (I know you aren't 100% on the accuracy of that report).

 

It's a paraphrased signing report, and I don't believe he said she was Lanfear. And won't believe it, until someone gets an answer out of Maria.

[yoniy0]

No. I believe that Else was never Lanfear. She was Mesaana, when she met Mat, and again when she met the girls.

What about what I asked? Was the woman around the corner Mesaana, or Lanfear? Do you agree that she looked like Selene (whatever that means)? Do you think she used Compulsion?

[Terez]

No. I believe that Else was never Lanfear. She was Mesaana, when she met Mat, and again when she met the girls.

What about what I asked? Was the woman around the corner Mesaana, or Lanfear?

 

Lanfear. As I said earlier, I believe she was spying on Mesaana.

[Terez]

PS—The only reason I really doubt whether Else was Mesaana was the fact that Egwene thought Else was looking at the stone ring, and she also thought Lanfear glanced at it (as she was looking Egwene up and down). But that is like a child wondering why his mother knew he had something in his pockets. Why wouldn't she glance? And for another, there are a couple of other details that seem designed to suggest that Else wasn't Lanfear:

 

1. When Egwene went out the door, she noticed that the flash of white was further down the hall than it should be, and deduced that Else must be running. But somehow I doubt Lanfear was running, and it would be silly for her to Travel down the hallway instead of just Traveling herself away to wherever she wanted to be. To me it makes more sense that she was watching from a distance, saw Mesaana make a reversed gateway, and simply walked away because Mesaana wasn't there any longer.

 

2. The wording—"I suspect she is far away from here by now."—has the ring of simple truth. Sure, it applies to Else too, assuming she wasn't killed (it wouldn't be necessary to kill her if she was sent home; it's not like she would come back to confuse things). But combined with the above it is enough to make one wonder.

 

Also, RJ often said that the only influence his fans really had on his writing was that, when they had figured out something too quickly, he would put in less clues, and when they had a totally wrong idea about something, he would put in more clues, or more specific clues. I can't help but think the bit about Mesaana in LOC was intended to put readers on the right path about Else, because everyone wrongly assumed it was Lanfear.

[Luckers]

PS—The only reason I really doubt whether Else was Mesaana was the fact that Egwene thought Else was looking at the stone ring, and she also thought Lanfear glanced at it (as she was looking Egwene up and down). But that is like a child wondering why his mother knew he had something in his pockets. Why wouldn't she glance? And for another, there are a couple of other details that seem designed to suggest that Else wasn't Lanfear:

 

1. When Egwene went out the door, she noticed that the flash of white was further down the hall than it should be, and deduced that Else must be running. But somehow I doubt Lanfear was running, and it would be silly for her to Travel down the hallway instead of just Traveling herself away to wherever she wanted to be. To me it makes more sense that she was watching from a distance, saw Mesaana make a reversed gateway, and simply walked away because Mesaana wasn't there any longer.

 

2. The wording—"I suspect she is far away from here by now."—has the ring of simple truth. Sure, it applies to Else too, assuming she wasn't killed (it wouldn't be necessary to kill her if she was sent home; it's not like she would come back to confuse things). But combined with the above it is enough to make one wonder.

 

Also, RJ often said that the only influence his fans really had on his writing was that, when they had figured out something too quickly, he would put in less clues, and when they had a totally wrong idea about something, he would put in more clues, or more specific clues. I can't help but think the bit about Mesaana in LOC was intended to put readers on the right path about Else, because everyone wrongly assumed it was Lanfear.

 

You've made me reconsider this. The logic seems reasonable.

 

 

[fikkie77]

Is it some kind of Compulsion that's used to help the Accepted remember their test and the six-pointed star in the Test for the Shawl? Rereading Moiraine's Test in New Spring gave me that feeling.

[Luckers]

Is it some kind of Compulsion that's used to help the Accepted remember their test and the six-pointed star in the Test for the Shawl? Rereading Moiraine's Test in New Spring gave me that feeling.

 

Yes, it's related.

[yoniy0]

Some kind of Ward, I figured.

 

Regarding Mesaana, it does make sense, as long as we all agree it was Lanfear (as Selene) Egwene talked to. There's really not much of an indication who Else was, except that we already know Mesaana at least knew of Be'lal's plans. And her description fits Mesaana as well, better than it does Lanfear anyway. Not that it should matter, seeing as how no one got close to her, but still.

[Terez]

You've made me reconsider this. The logic seems reasonable.

 

Yay! It was on the list of MAFOs I originally sent to Maria.

 

Is it some kind of Compulsion that's used to help the Accepted remember their test and the six-pointed star in the Test for the Shawl? Rereading Moiraine's Test in New Spring gave me that feeling.

 

I asked Brandon about that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is very reasonable, and I think it is highly possible. My doubts were from the Lanfear-Egwene meeting, which you cleared up, so no objections. I re-read the relevant passages afterwards and it is highly likely. Which is no doubt what you saw before the rest of us

[Finnssss22]

Hopefully we can get a confirmation from Maria.

The signing report mentioned earlier has always been the biggest factor against.

I never believed the Else that ran into Mat was Lanfear. Her reaction was so far afield of Lanfear, it was laughable. Especially once we get to know what Mesaana is like in the later books.

The Else that the girls dealt with has always been a little trickier. Even more so with that signing report.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Finnssss

[fikkie77]

You've made me reconsider this. The logic seems reasonable.

 

Yay! It was on the list of MAFOs I originally sent to Maria.

 

Is it some kind of Compulsion that's used to help the Accepted remember their test and the six-pointed star in the Test for the Shawl? Rereading Moiraine's Test in New Spring gave me that feeling.

 

I asked Brandon about that.

Thanks! What struck me as well. was that Verin was at that particular Test. She might have used this particular Compulsion with others to create her own version.

 

@yoniy0: it's not a ward. A ward is to protect oneself or an item against theft or trespassing. Like the Ward Moiraine used in Shadar Logoth which gave birdsounds or the rather nasty wards Rand placed on Callandor or Shadar Logoth. This weave places an instruction on the subject: "Remember this Test, then and then you may weave, go to the six-pointed star". When Moiraine goes through the ring, she forgets everything. When she sees the star, she knows exactly that which was instructed.

[yoniy0]

@yoniy0: it's not a ward. A ward is to protect oneself or an item against theft or trespassing. Like the Ward Moiraine used in Shadar Logoth which gave birdsounds or the rather nasty wards Rand placed on Callandor or Shadar Logoth. This weave places an instruction on the subject: "Remember this Test, then and then you may weave, go to the six-pointed star". When Moiraine goes through the ring, she forgets everything. When she sees the star, she knows exactly that which was instructed.

You say place an instruction. I say, guard you from the forgetfulness affected by the ter'angreal. And wards are used to protect one's self against ill effects as well, such as the warding one weaves to keep one's dreams private. More telling, perhaps, is this line about the Acceptatron:

The first sister to enter was warded as strongly as she could be, since no one knew what it would do. She kept her memories, and she channeled the One Power when she was threatened.

[fikkie77]

When you ward your dreams you ward it against intrusion.

It looks strongly like Compulsion, but that is something the AS won´t accept. Using the word ´warding´ makes it more acceptable.

[yoniy0]

Now you're simply picking and choosing. Which is okay, but it does raise questions as to the certainty in your tone. I have presented my opinion, which I believe still stands against your reasoning (you might say that the effect of forgetfulness is intrusive, therefore it could be warded against even by your standards), then backed it up in canon. Therefore, while I allow for the possibility that you're right, I hardly think simple reiteration will persuade me so (nor should it anyone).

[fikkie77]

Okay, I will put it differently: BS said that weave and Compulsion are cousins.

[yoniy0]

Yes he did, as was said before. What's there to say warding one's mind needn't be kin to Compulsion? That would seem reasonable enough to me.

[Sharaman]

Or that the two weaves are very similar in terms of how they are woven but not in effect. They put the same elements together and apply them to somebody's head. But the effects may be somewhat or very different.

[fikkie77]

Yes he did, as was said before. What's there to say warding one's mind needn't be kin to Compulsion? That would seem reasonable enough to me.

Except warding is always against something from the outside. This is to keep something in, not to keep something out.

[Knivy]

Yes he did, as was said before. What's there to say warding one's mind needn't be kin to Compulsion? That would seem reasonable enough to me.

Except warding is always against something from the outside. This is to keep something in, not to keep something out.

Not so. Rand wards Asmo's tent during their time in the waste, to only keep Asmo in.

[yoniy0]

Regardless, perhaps we've continued on a tangent for too long now, so let's wrap this up.