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I believe I already conceded the point last we discussed it, because it's impossible to get around. What the quote I gave makes clear is that RJ didn't really put very much thought into it. I've been pointing out a lot of similar things on my reread thread at Theoryland.

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The whole Shaidar Haran 0.5 thing, is that of the Dark One, or is it of Jordan?

It's a term Jordan used to describe the smiling Fade visiting Bors (and others); it was an early version of what was to become Shaidar Haran. I think that if he was to write those scenes now, he would have replaced the strange smiling Fade with Shaidar Haran.

 

 

Noooooo!!!! X0

 

Actually, the R&D of Superfade is one of my favorite parts of the series. I think it was intentional, that RJ wouldn't hange a thing. it was foreshadowing that we don't get until our second read through. I mean, sure, it seems ominous during the first read through, but you appreciate it much more knowing what it becomes.

 

I should have been more clear, but these two points are basically it.

Is Shaidar Haran 0.5 basically an early bookism/something that could be changed to an idea that RJ later elaborated on or just a prototype version by the Great Lord, which was later refined to give us Shaidar Haran?

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What happened to Birgitte's Hero-ness when she was ripped out of TAR? When she dies, will she still be a hero of the horn, or will she need to win her way back?

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I have two questions, guys. And they both concern the same subject matter.

 

1) By The Shadow Rising, Danelle is already Mesaana, right? Danelle's first appearance is in Siuan's chambers when Elaida leads the Aes Sedai to remove the stole and evict Siuan from her position as Amyrlin Seat. I assume that Danelle is really Mesaana already then, in which case we can definitely see that the Black Ajah was behind Siuan's stilling because Mesaana herself was in the room with Alviarin and other members of the Black Ajah when Siuan was removed from her position.

 

2) Was it Mesaana who interrogated and then killed Sahra on the farm in The Shadow Rising? I've assumed it was Mesaana since the first time I read the book, but I'm curious if it was her or one of her minions, like Alviarin.

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1) By The Shadow Rising, Danelle is already Mesaana, right? Danelle's first appearance is in Siuan's chambers when Elaida leads the Aes Sedai to remove the stole and evict Siuan from her position as Amyrlin Seat. I assume that Danelle is really Mesaana already then, in which case we can definitely see that the Black Ajah was behind Siuan's stilling because Mesaana herself was in the room with Alviarin and other members of the Black Ajah when Siuan was removed from her position.

 

We know it was the BA behind it. They saw the direction Elaida was headed and jumped at the chance. They made the vote so there was the bare minimum of Sitters involved while the deciding vote was cast by a BA member and should not have counted. The whole thing was rigged and she was not deposed legally.

Edited by Suttree

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I don't have the book handy but I thought it was Elida that went to question her about what min and gawin talked about.

No way. Elaida interrogating a novice and killing her (with the One Power) afterwards. That was definitely BA or Mesaana. I don't think Mesaana would get her hands dirty in this, so probably BA.

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Sorry my mistake. Skiming through audio book to find now. TSR Chapter 17 Deceptions - gives no name but the woman is wearing a cloak to cover her face. No other description is given.

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I have two questions, guys. And they both concern the same subject matter.

 

1) By The Shadow Rising, Danelle is already Mesaana, right? Danelle's first appearance is in Siuan's chambers when Elaida leads the Aes Sedai to remove the stole and evict Siuan from her position as Amyrlin Seat. I assume that Danelle is really Mesaana already then, in which case we can definitely see that the Black Ajah was behind Siuan's stilling because Mesaana herself was in the room with Alviarin and other members of the Black Ajah when Siuan was removed from her position.

 

 

In addition to what Suttree said, it's interesting to note that the first stated incident out outright fighting is with the three hundred 'masons' that 'Danelle' brought into the Tower.

 

I'm guessing that whilst Mesaana told Elaida they were just there to secure the Tower, in reality I'm guessing their mission was to ensure the situation escalated.

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Verin said in TGS she'd met Mesaana in the WT. Since she left the WT before TSR and didn't return until her last night there i TGS, we can assume Messi was already there. Hence, Danelle has indeed already been replaced by TSR.

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That's interesting. My first read through, I thought Mesaana didn't appear until the LoC prologue, but now it's obvious she had to have appeared, in proxy form, in TSR. I've noticed that with other Forsaken also (Moghedian as Sylvie in TDR, briefly in one of Egwene's visits to Tel'aran'rhiod, for instance).

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Verin said in TGS she'd met Mesaana in the WT. Since she left the WT before TSR and didn't return until her last night there i TGS, we can assume Messi was already there. Hence, Danelle has indeed already been replaced by TSR.

 

Except that Mesaana might well have been posing as someone else early on. We have other reasons to believe that Mesaana was already Danelle at that time, but your logic doesn't work.

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In addition to all that's been said (and hinted), there are clues that someone was using inverse weaves when Siuan was deposed (she couldn't embrace saidar before Elaida did). The obvious suspect would be Danelle, who was present. And then there's the matter of her failure to sense Alric's death.

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In addition to all that's been said (and hinted), there are clues that someone was using inverse weaves when Siuan was deposed (she couldn't embrace saidar before Elaida did). The obvious suspect would be Danelle, who was present. And then there's the matter of her failure to sense Alric's death.

 

RJ retconned Alrics death, saying that he did not die immidiatly, so Siuan did not notice anything.

As for using inverted weaves, surely someone would have noticed that someone was using a weave that noone in the room could even see. Sounds more like RJ made a mistake.

 

The main reason to suspect Danelle of being up to no good (and later when RJ mentioned we had seen Mesaana, make that connection which at least some here did quite early :) ) is her involvment with the masons. And in a longer perspective, her being a key player in the coup, only to fade away onto obscurity quite soon after.

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Oh, well, I never heard that about Alric. Still utter nonsense; she should've felt the dagger either way (he was in the next room, for Light's sake). Regardless, why would anyone notice an inverted weave? Except Siuan, no one would know she reached for the Source, and she was given other things to think about very shortly after. The only problem would be to mask the fact that she was holding saidar while not masking her ability completely, but considering she knew how to make her potential seem what it wasn't, that's a very small obstacle.

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She should have felt something was very much wrong. Unless Mesaana used an inverted weave to dampen the warder bond (which would be strange, the Forsaken didn't understand the bond), it must me a mistake from RJ.

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She should have felt something was very much wrong. Unless Mesaana used an inverted weave to dampen the warder bond (which would be strange, the Forsaken didn't understand the bond), it must me a mistake from RJ.

 

Here is the answer he gave...

 

Interview: Oct 5th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS

Robert Jordan

 

For Roland Arien, a lot of people have asked questions about Alric's death. I should have made matters plainer. As I envisioned it, Alric, having sensed Siuan's extreme shock, came running to her and arrived just in time to be stabbed just before Siuan was taken into the anteroom. She should have sensed the knife going in, but that was masked by her shock. When she sees him lying there, he is dying, though not yet dead. As I said, I should have made it plainer.

 

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Oh, well, I never heard that about Alric. Still utter nonsense; she should've felt the dagger either way (he was in the next room, for Light's sake). Regardless, why would anyone notice an inverted weave? Except Siuan, no one would know she reached for the Source, and she was given other things to think about very shortly after. The only problem would be to mask the fact that she was holding saidar while not masking her ability completely, but considering she knew how to make her potential seem what it wasn't, that's a very small obstacle.

 

Never said it was a good retcon :)

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Sylvie was Lanfear.

Ok, that also makes sense then. She seems to assume the role of a lot of people, and she was one of the Forsaken watching Tear (although I wonder if perhaps they all were, really, just not all physically).

 

Also, I read somewhere that it was Semirhage's Trollocs that attacked the Stone of Tear in TSR shortly after Rand encounters Lanfear in his bedchamber, and then Lanfear's Trollocs counter Semirhage's. Is this true?

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Sylvie was Lanfear.

Ok, that also makes sense then.

It does (I definitely think it was her), but I don't think we know it for a fact. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Also, I read somewhere that it was Semirhage's Trollocs that attacked the Stone of Tear in TSR shortly after Rand encounters Lanfear in his bedchamber, and then Lanfear's Trollocs counter Semirhage's. Is this true?

No. Semirhage sent the 'good' trollocs, the ones who fought other trollocs (on orders from SG, I think). The 'bad' ones were sent by Sammael, if memory serves.

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