Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Sephie913]

I was clutching at straws, as well, to support your theory. Not so sure about other evidences, but I believe it was via the WoT worldbook. And Ishy is different from other Chosen in a lot of ways, so it's possible (if not plausible, seeing as we've been inside his head) that he has knowledge from his hundreds of years of freedom. He likely has more knowledge about the ways than anyone else alive, except maybe Ogier.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Sephie

[Maleshub]

Thanks for the correction. But how is it known that the corruption is from the taint? I mean, the eye of the world had a pure, taintless pool of saidin. That means the taint isnt part of saiden, and even though men died creating that pure pool, i think it means that actual flows arent affected by the taint, the taint is just taken in as side affect of saiden. Also, isnt the taint described as a sheet covering saiden? So taint wouldnt be woven into the flows, just affecting the channeler. Do we have any other evidence of male acts post-resealing being tainted (other than madness, of course). Im sure Im grasping at straws here, but its worth the thought.

 

Also, IIRC, the chosen have no control over the taint, but are just protected - Rand cutting Asmo off renders him helpless. If there was a way to control it, then Asmo would then most likely find a way to avoid the effects of the taint.

 

You aren't grasping at straws here! If what applies to the Ways applies to all Saidin channelings, then Flinn's healing would be corrupt over time; and so would many other things. And that's an interesting take on the issue.

 

One possibility is that the Ways are not dependent on the channeler; but on Saidin itself. They could be like a channeler who draws on Saidin everytime the Ways are used; and so the taint would seep into the Ways (channeler) with time. Now that is truly grasping at straws!

[Barid Bel Medar]

A valid theory, however, we have this, and other clarifications.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

 

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Maleshub]

A valid theory, however, we have this, and other clarifications.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

 

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

Do the "chemicals" factor in anything that was channeled out of Saidin? If Neald used his power to make power items pre-cleansing, would they corrupt over time?

[Finnssss22]

 

Do the "chemicals" factor in anything that was channeled out of Saidin? If Neald used his power to make power items pre-cleansing, would they corrupt over time?

 

That's actually a really good question.

Definitely a possibility.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree, excellent question.

 

I have no idea as to the answer.

[fikkie77]

A valid theory, however, we have this, and other clarifications.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Someone had a question about Machin Shin in the Ways. Since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard it as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways. The talisman of growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but it's definitely on the evil side.

 

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

 

Do the "chemicals" factor in anything that was channeled out of Saidin? If Neald used his power to make power items pre-cleansing, would they corrupt over time?

I think it depends on what is done and how. I think that the Ways somehow used standing weaves of saidin, making it possible for the Taint to enter the Ways. If the power-wrought item had standing weaves, it would be corrupted over time. If saidin is only used to create it without standing weaves, that corruption wouldn't happen.

[fikkie77]

I have thought about it some more and this is what I think:

 

The Talisman of Growing is a ter'angreal that uses Saidin and might also use Saidar, but we don't know that. The Dutch translation calls them the 'Saidinwegen' (Saidinways); if that name was given with consent of RJ, then the Talisman probably uses only Saidin. The Talisman might be made before the breaking or after, but we know it uses at least Saidin and it's the state of Saidin that's important. It probably uses huge amounts of Saidin and that makes it vulnarable. The Taint is not in the Saidin used, but travels along. And when it's brought in the Ways by Saidin, it has nowhere to go and stays in and has it's effect in corrupting the Ways (and probably creating Machin Shin).

My theory is that if an Ogier were to use the Talisman to create new Ways, seperate from the existing Ways, it wouldn't get corrupted. This is because the corruption happened because the Saidin it used was tainted, not because the Talisman was created with tainted Saidin (it might even be made pre-breaking). If you use the Talisman to create a new Waygate to the Ways, you get a uncorrupted entry to the Ways, which will be corrupted by the Ways over time.

[RandA lThor]

I don't think it will be that simple. The talisman of growing was probably created when the mad men inside the stedding gave them the gift of the Ways. I think that that means that it will always created tainted Ways like it has done before since it uses saidin with a tainted ter, angreal. Also, since all the Ways are connected, they will all be corrupted since Machin Shin can go through them.

[fikkie77]

Can someone give me a quote whether the Talismans were created by the same male Aes Sedai that gave them to the Ogier?

Because the Ways might as well been a meaning of transport before Travelling was discovered.

 

I know creating new Ways would probably connect them to the existing Ways. I'm stating a hypothesis that if one were to create a separate Ways, it would be clean and stay clean.

[Terez]

The Ways were made during the Breaking as a token of thanks to the Ogier who gave the male channelers sanctuary from tainted saidin. They didn't exist before then.

[RandA lThor]

Therefore, something that was made just to create Ways must have been created post breaking, and it definitely was not created post cleansing.

[wookiebear]

I have always wondered if all ways to use the Power to travel are linked, or rather pass through the same...... space I guess you could say

 

Skimming going through the same "space" as the Ways. I was wondering because if they are the same then Machin Shin could attack in skimming as well.

 

As far as cleansing the Ways I think from the text it would be similar in scope to cleansing Saidin. I am not sure you could do it without a sink to destroy the taint, ie Mashidar. I wonder if the Ways will be abandoned and be rediscovered in another age, much like the Portal Stones in the current Age.

[yourcheesehat]

What if the Machin Sin was easily pushed back by the AOL Aes Sedai so it never became any sort of threat?

After being unwatched since the breaking it could have grown and become dangerous plus the knowledge of combating it lost.

[fikkie77]

Therefore, something that was made just to create Ways must have been created post breaking, and it definitely was not created post cleansing.

That's not necessarily true. It might be that the Talisman is something pre-breaking and was used to do something else. It could even be that different songs make the Talisman of Growing do different things. Like growing Chora trees, healing the Bore or creating a means of transportation.

[fikkie77]

The Ways were made during the Breaking as a token of thanks to the Ogier who gave the male channelers sanctuary from tainted saidin. They didn't exist before then.

I'm actually more curious of whether the Talisman of Growing is pre-, peri- or post-breaking.

[RandA lThor]

It should be peribreaking because I don't think the Ogier could have made that.

[Sharaman]

Didn't Liandrin say in TGH that she could protect herself in the Ways? Was she just lying or did she think she could, or do Shadow-trained channelers actually have a method to protect themselves? Verin didn't seem very happy about it, also in TGH and neither did Moiraine in TEotW?

[fikkie77]

They couldn't.

But AOL Aes Sedai could. And as I said, it could be pre-breaking with a different use.

[fikkie77]

Didn't Liandrin say in TGH that she could protect herself in the Ways? Was she just lying or did she think she could, or do Shadow-trained channelers actually have a method to protect themselves? Verin didn't seem very happy about it, also in TGH and neither did Moiraine in TEotW?

she lied.

[mb]

Not sure about the Talisman of Growing being pre-Breaking.

I take each terangreal would need to be altered to include the new function. Not sure whether any terangreal could be altered. Closest cases of terangreal becoming altered seem to be terangreal malfunctioning; Egwene's test to become Accepted, Aviendha's glass columns experience.

And if the Talisman of Growing had any other function, I would guess those functions would have been discoveered by now and recorded in the books.

[yoniy0]

But AOL Aes Sedai could.

There were no Ways in the AoL, and no Machin Shin. RJ said (as quoted in the last page) that it grew in the Ways as a consequence of the Taint, so that's that.

[fikkie77]

Not sure about the Talisman of Growing being pre-Breaking.

I take each terangreal would need to be altered to include the new function. Not sure whether any terangreal could be altered. Closest cases of terangreal becoming altered seem to be terangreal malfunctioning; Egwene's test to become Accepted, Aviendha's glass columns experience.

And if the Talisman of Growing had any other function, I would guess those functions would have been discoveered by now and recorded in the books.

We know that the Oath Rod was actually a Binding Rod. It was not used to create trust, but to bind those who couldn't be trusted.

We know that the ter'angreal used for the Accepted's Test has more to do with TAR than with testing someone.

We know that Callandor is made for more than just killing a Forsaken

 

Here's a Talisman of Growing. What if it's purpose is not growing the Ways, but that that's just one example of growing it can induce? Could it be used to grow more things than the Ways? It might not be coincedence that it was found in Ebou Dar. It might still have a purpose in AMoL. Like restoring the world after TG. If only they knew of the right song...

[Maleshub]

If the Talisman of Growing is only a "medium" for the continuous connection of Saidin to the Ways, then I can see how the taint could seep into the ways. But if it is just a spark for a one-time weave, then the corruption of the ways needs another explanation.

[Durinax]

If the Talisman of Growing is only a "medium" for the continuous connection of Saidin to the Ways, then I can see how the taint could seep into the ways. But if it is just a spark for a one-time weave, then the corruption of the ways needs another explanation.

even if it is a one time deal, after the breaking they grew many many more Ways so it could be possible that the building of Ways is what did it