Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Can anyone remember where or what Mat Cauthon explained with his 'shoe metaphor in Towers of Midnight.

I own the book so even a pagenumber would be great!

 

Sorry that my first post is in this section and not in the 'Introduce yourself' but I really need help with digging through the book.

Thanks!

 

Towers of Midnight Chapter 52: Boots

 

Not sure what edition you are reading, but I have the large paperback UK version. (basically hardcover size, but in paperback)

 

Page 768 it starts from.

 

And welcome to the Forums! hope you have a good time.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Vardar]

No, that's far too much too soon that kills you and/or others.

The sickness is caused by channeling a lot of the power for the first time when you have never channeled at all before.

Think of it as being out of shape and then climbing 100 flights of stairs in one go instead of just climbing a fraction of that to start and increasing the numbers gradually each day.

If you're out of shape and do the 100 right off the bat, I guarantee you that you won't be doing anything the next day or for a few days after.

 

So then, knowing you're channeling, and only doing small things means you should be ok (The basic thing the tower does with you). Or would that mean the Black Tower lost more people to the sickness? Something doesn't add up.

 

If you channel too much of the power, you burn out. If you channel too much too early, you get sick and die? However you can be forced, i.e. Eggy or all the Black Tower, and it's fine?

 

Given the context we have, it should mean anyone who realizes they are channeling, should never die from the sickness since they just do little htings and they get past some magical point where they can't die from the sickness anymore?

 

 

The proper training allows you to build your "muscles" slowly without shocking your system.

[yoniy0]

Vardarmus, we actually don't know exactly what it is that direction helps one avoid. Finsss's explanation is as good as any, I figure.

[Finnssss22]

No, that's far too much too soon that kills you and/or others.

The sickness is caused by channeling a lot of the power for the first time when you have never channeled at all before.

Think of it as being out of shape and then climbing 100 flights of stairs in one go instead of just climbing a fraction of that to start and increasing the numbers gradually each day.

If you're out of shape and do the 100 right off the bat, I guarantee you that you won't be doing anything the next day or for a few days after.

 

So then, knowing you're channeling, and only doing small things means you should be ok (The basic thing the tower does with you). Or would that mean the Black Tower lost more people to the sickness? Something doesn't add up.

 

If you channel too much of the power, you burn out. If you channel too much too early, you get sick and die? However you can be forced, i.e. Eggy or all the Black Tower, and it's fine?

 

Given the context we have, it should mean anyone who realizes they are channeling, should never die from the sickness since they just do little htings and they get past some magical point where they can't die from the sickness anymore?

 

 

The proper training allows you to build your "muscles" slowly without shocking your system.

 

The key word is "knowing" that you're channeling and being in conscious control of it .

Rand didn't know he was channeling when he buffed Bela in the flight from the Two Rivers and suffered for it days later with Mat on their way to Caemlyn.

Just like Nynaeve didn't know she was channeling when she healed Egwene of Breakbone fever years earlier.

It's why the ones that survive often develop blocks, it's their subconscious protecting them.

 

Egwene was forced but she already had training and the a'dam works like a forced link. A link of any kind comes with a natural buffer, as the leader of a circle, you can't force those under you to channel too much of the power.

That's why Rand will need to have 2 women linked with him to use Callandor safely, to provide the buffer that its' missing.

 

The BT didn't lose men because of the sickness, they lost men because they were also doing forced training but without the protection of a'dam and of course from some simply going mad.

 

Whether or not I'm 100% right on all this is for debate but it's what makes the most sense based on what we know.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Finnssss

[Vardar]

The key word is "knowing" that you're channeling and being in conscious control of it .

Rand didn't know he was channeling when he buffed Bela in the flight from the Two Rivers and suffered for it days later with Mat on their way to Caemlyn.

Just like Nynaeve didn't know she was channeling when she healed Egwene of Breakbone fever years earlier.

It's why the ones that survive often develop blocks, it's their subconscious protecting them.

 

Egwene was forced but she already had training and the a'dam works like a forced link. A link of any kind comes with a natural buffer, as the leader of a circle, you can't force those under you to channel too much of the power.

That's why Rand will need to have 2 women linked with him to use Callandor safely, to provide the buffer that its' missing.

 

The BT didn't lose men because of the sickness, they lost men because they were also doing forced training but without the protection of a'dam and of course from some simply going mad.

 

Whether or not I'm 100% right on all this is for debate but it's what makes the most sense based on what we know.

 

Hmm. I never realized the Adam can't force you to draw too much power. Interesting, interesting.

 

As to the knowing part, yes that's the key. But Rand knew after book 1, and yet until he had a tutor, he still mentioned that he could die from the sickness that kills 3 in 4.

 

I just like hearing other opinions, I enjoy debaitng. Sorry if it bothers anyone.

[Finnssss22]

The key word is "knowing" that you're channeling and being in conscious control of it .

Rand didn't know he was channeling when he buffed Bela in the flight from the Two Rivers and suffered for it days later with Mat on their way to Caemlyn.

Just like Nynaeve didn't know she was channeling when she healed Egwene of Breakbone fever years earlier.

It's why the ones that survive often develop blocks, it's their subconscious protecting them.

 

Egwene was forced but she already had training and the a'dam works like a forced link. A link of any kind comes with a natural buffer, as the leader of a circle, you can't force those under you to channel too much of the power.

That's why Rand will need to have 2 women linked with him to use Callandor safely, to provide the buffer that its' missing.

 

The BT didn't lose men because of the sickness, they lost men because they were also doing forced training but without the protection of a'dam and of course from some simply going mad.

 

Whether or not I'm 100% right on all this is for debate but it's what makes the most sense based on what we know.

 

Hmm. I never realized the Adam can't force you to draw too much power. Interesting, interesting.

 

As to the knowing part, yes that's the key. But Rand knew after book 1, and yet until he had a tutor, he still mentioned that he could die from the sickness that kills 3 in 4.

 

I just like hearing other opinions, I enjoy debaitng. Sorry if it bothers anyone.

 

You have to remember that, as RJ has pointed out more than a few times, what a character thinks to be true is not necessarily true.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Finnssss

[Vardar]

You have to remember that, as RJ has pointed out more than a few times, what a character thinks to be true is not necessarily true.

 

Seems like a cop out, but I'll accept it sir!

[Clouded]

Is it true all Aes Sedai lose their oaths when they are stilled? Would that mean the three Aes Sedai who were stilled at Dumai's Wells and Healed by Flinn can lie?

[MasterAblar]

Is it true all Aes Sedai lose their oaths when they are stilled? Would that mean the three Aes Sedai who were stilled at Dumai's Wells and Healed by Flinn can lie?

 

Yes

[Clouded]

Wow I just find it hard to believe that no sister in 3000 years has managed to discover that a stilled sister can lie. I can think of 6 Severed Aes Sedai in this story, and that's a 2 year span. Granted, its a time when the dragon reborn walks the world, and its supposed to be a pretty crazy time period. But 0 sisters were burnt out or stilled, and were willing to prove they can lie? Seems ridiculous.

[Suttree]

Wow I just find it hard to believe that no sister in 3000 years has managed to discover that a stilled sister can lie. I can think of 6 Severed Aes Sedai in this story, and that's a 2 year span. Granted, its a time when the dragon reborn walks the world, and its supposed to be a pretty crazy time period. But 0 sisters were burnt out or stilled, and were willing to prove they can lie? Seems ridiculous.

 

The oath on lying has only been around since after the Trolloc Wars...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Wow I just find it hard to believe that no sister in 3000 years has managed to discover that a stilled sister can lie. I can think of 6 Severed Aes Sedai in this story, and that's a 2 year span. Granted, its a time when the dragon reborn walks the world, and its supposed to be a pretty crazy time period. But 0 sisters were burnt out or stilled, and were willing to prove they can lie? Seems ridiculous.

 

The oath on lying has only been around since after the Trolloc Wars...

 

Yeah, also they do kinda explain it.

 

Stilled/burnt out women usually just go off and live in obscurity. They do not make any attempt to study its effects. They have always been uncomfortable with severed women.

 

But one would think that throughout the 1000 or so years since the Trolloc wars, one would have said "hey, I can lie now, FYI."

 

But I think it is just another way to highlight the shortcomings of the modern Aes Sedai, they are tradition bound, over-cautious and show almost no innovative initiative, until the DR and the wondergirls came along.

[EmperorMayhem]

It makes sense that the world at large doesn't know this, as the only ones who are stilled and realize they can lie, that we get a POV from, keep it secret. It should occur to them however, to be on the lookout for other stilled-then-healed AS who could potentially be darkfriends, or send a warning to Rand to keep his eyes open or something...

[Finnssss22]

Wow I just find it hard to believe that no sister in 3000 years has managed to discover that a stilled sister can lie. I can think of 6 Severed Aes Sedai in this story, and that's a 2 year span. Granted, its a time when the dragon reborn walks the world, and its supposed to be a pretty crazy time period. But 0 sisters were burnt out or stilled, and were willing to prove they can lie? Seems ridiculous.

 

The oath on lying has only been around since after the Trolloc Wars...

 

Yeah, also they do kinda explain it.

 

Stilled/burnt out women usually just go off and live in obscurity. They do not make any attempt to study its effects. They have always been uncomfortable with severed women.

 

But one would think that throughout the 1000 or so years since the Trolloc wars, one would have said "hey, I can lie now, FYI."

 

But I think it is just another way to highlight the shortcomings of the modern Aes Sedai, they are tradition bound, over-cautious and show almost no innovative initiative, until the DR and the wondergirls came along.

 

Closer to 2100 or so years since the Trolloc Wars but yeah, trying to distance themselves from such women is a big factor.

 

 

Year 1AB (After Breaking)

Year 1000AB Trolloc Wars

Year 1300AB Trolloc Wars end

Year 1FY (Free Years)

Year 994FY Hawkwing's death, beginning of the War of the Hundred Years

Year 1117FY End of the War of the Hundred Years

Year 1NE (New Era)

Year 1000NE current

Edited April 27, 2012 by Finnssss

[Apples First]

Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al’Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al’Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenly vanished from Fain’s senses. He did not know how, but always al’Thor came back, just as suddenly as he had gone. He would come back this time, too.

-TGH

 

What is his 'vanishing technique'?

(Apparently, it's Rand entering the Void)

 

 

“I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet.” She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far—and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. “Not with that, certainly,” she added, grimacing at Callandor. “There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that.”

-TSR

 

This has probably been asked already, but, is there any information regarding the 'two more powerful sa'angreal' (one being the male Chodean Ka, of coursel). Also, Lanfear refers to her knowing one still exists; does this actually refer to the Chodean Kal?

 

 

“This,” Aviendha said, holding up the dagger. “I think that if you have this in your possession, the Shadow cannot see you. Not the Eyeless or the Shadowtwisted, maybe not even Leafblighter. Except that I must be wrong if you did not see it.”

 

Later on...

 

She handed Elayne the blunt dagger. “You must keep this, so you will be safe. I will try to visit you as often as I can.”

-KoD

 

Opinions on this being foreshadowing?

Links to the three rings Gawyn picks up at the end of ToM?

[Mulk]

The one that still exists would be the Choedan Kal, yes. The other, since we've not seen it up to this point, I would guess was destroyed or otherwise lost to the world during the Breaking. I've no real opinion on your last questions, and the first you apparently answered on your own...at least I agree with the conclusion you posted.

[Mulk]

also: re not knowing about stilling/burning out releasing the Oaths, given how ingrained it is into all Aes Sedai, it's possible that those few who survive any length of time didn't think to lie until after they were gone from the Tower for a period of time. You also need to consider that the majority who were stilled on purpose were then subsequently executed and it's doubtful any such would volunteer any information to her executioners. I agree it's sort of unlikely that we got all of this time without someone knowing, but then just mentioning that someone has been stilled makes a fair number of the sisters physically ill so it's likely they wouldn't WANT to delve into it.

[Sharaman]

Presumably over the years, there are enough women like Setalle who have suffered accidental burn out/ stilling for some reason.

To use her as an example, Setalle has no need to conceal the fact that the three Oaths no longer hold. Over the decades, she must have had to lie (even if it was white lies for say, missing a social engagement).

But yeah, the AS avoid dealing with stilled/ burntout women as far as possible.

 

Different question:

Do we have any idea whether somebody can access TAR while, 1) in a stedding 2) SG and the Blight 3) Finnland.

We know that if TAR is accessed normally (either Dreams/ in the flesh) from other locales, it isn't possible to enter the above places in TAR.Supposedly this is because they are out of phase with Randland reality.

But can a Dreamer / Channeler who is physically located in these places either go to sleep/ open a Gate and enter TAR either in dreams or in the Flesh ?

For example, could Perrin get to the Wolf Dream if he slept in a stedding.

Or can Cynane Dream her way into TAR from SG?

It should be possible if the theory that every place carries its own TAR shadow-reflection is true.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Sharaman

[Finnssss22]

Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al’Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al’Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenly vanished from Fain’s senses. He did not know how, but always al’Thor came back, just as suddenly as he had gone. He would come back this time, too.

-TGH

 

What is his 'vanishing technique'?

(Apparently, it's Rand entering the Void)

 

Either that or when Rand is entering TAR in the flesh.

[TristanWebb]

Either that or when Rand is entering TAR in the flesh.

That quote was from the start of TGH, he could berely assume the void at will, I doubt he was entering TAR.

[Finnssss22]

Either that or when Rand is entering TAR in the flesh.

That quote was from the start of TGH, he could berely assume the void at will, I doubt he was entering TAR.

 

Or it was when Ishy was pulling him into TAR/where ever it is that they go to for Rand's "Nightmares" early on or conversation later on.

 

 

Maybe it's just me but simply assuming the Void seems a little too...well...simple an explanation.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Finnssss

[Maleshub]

Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al’Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al’Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenly vanished from Fain’s senses. He did not know how, but always al’Thor came back, just as suddenly as he had gone. He would come back this time, too.

 

Wasn't this referring to the incident where Lanfear teleports Rand, Loial, and Hurin to the mirror world via the portal stone? That is how he went off Fain's radar (I think).

[Majsju]

Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al’Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al’Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenly vanished from Fain’s senses. He did not know how, but always al’Thor came back, just as suddenly as he had gone. He would come back this time, too.

 

Wasn't this referring to the incident where Lanfear teleports Rand, Loial, and Hurin to the mirror world via the portal stone? That is how he went off Fain's radar (I think).

 

That particular incident, yes. But as we see in this quote, Rand had started to vanish when he was in Fal Dara.

I have no evidence to back this up, but my gut tells me Rands "vanishing" happens when he uses the flame and the void. Channeling can be rules out, as he has not started to channel other than by accident yet, but he uses the flame whenever he spars with Lan.

[mb]

The hole in the eavesdropping ward, did Egwene recently discover that technique?

Or did she get it from someone that stayed in the Tower? if so, which one?

Or was it from Moghedien? if so, how come Egwene seems to just started it?

 

Who else knows the technique?

[Apples First]

Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al’Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al’Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenly vanished from Fain’s senses. He did not know how, but always al’Thor came back, just as suddenly as he had gone. He would come back this time, too.

 

Wasn't this referring to the incident where Lanfear teleports Rand, Loial, and Hurin to the mirror world via the portal stone? That is how he went off Fain's radar (I think).

 

That particular incident, yes. But as we see in this quote, Rand had started to vanish when he was in Fal Dara.

I have no evidence to back this up, but my gut tells me Rands "vanishing" happens when he uses the flame and the void. Channeling can be rules out, as he has not started to channel other than by accident yet, but he uses the flame whenever he spars with Lan.

 

An exhausted sleep finally came, and with sleep, unbidden, the void surrounded him, flickering with an uneasy glow that disturbed his dreams.

 

That happens just before Rand goes to sleep next to the Portal Stone, at the same time that Fain can't 'feel' him.

So, the vanishing trick could be the Oneness or it could be using the Portal Stone (which is Rand's doing imo, not Lanfear's)

 

However, later on when he attacks Fain's camp to get the Horn and Mat's dagger back, he has assumed the Void and Fain shouts into the darkness...

 

“I know it is you, al’Thor! You’re hiding from me, but I know you are out there! Find him! Find him! Al’Thoooor!”

 

And then Rand releases the void back in the mountains, and Fain can feel him again.

 

Al’Thor was up there, somewhere, in the mountains

 

or this could be something else:

 

Al’Thor was up there, somewhere, in the mountains. With the Horn. His teeth grated audibly at the thought. He did not know where, exactly, but something pulled him toward the mountains. Toward al’Thor. That much of the Dark One’s . . . gift . . . remained to him. He had hardly thought of it, had tried not to think of it, until suddenly, after the Horn was gone—Gone!—al’Thor was there, drawing him as meat draws a starving dog.

 

I find this description a bit confusing. Is Fain trying to say that he still cannot sense Rand as he did before and he must resort to using the Dark One's 'gift' to find him. Or is he just coming to realise that his ability to sense him is because of the Dark One. And, shouldn't Fain be able to sense Lanfear as well? Whilst he's in prison in Fal Dara, Rand sees him staring towards the women's department; Rand thinks this is towards the Amyrlin, however, I believe Fain can sense Liandrin, a Black Sister, and he does recognise the person who comes to free him. Fain also must have felt Rand as he was travelling towards the mountains. Rand had been up there for several days and we know that distance doesn't completely diminish his ability to sense Rand, or the other ta'veren. Perhaps Lanfear was using some sort of ward to protect herself from being found by other Forsaken and could have inadvertently protected Rand until it was broken by something, possibly his disillusionment, the Horn, or the Dagger. There is a problem with this; if a person's web against eavesdropping is broken, doesn't the spinner feel pain? (I'm sure I read that somewhere) So, Lanfear must have felt something or her ward was just deflected from Rand and Fain could sense him again.