Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Trying to justify myself so I don't look like Dida hahahaha

 

No worries on that mate, you always bring good stuff to the table...

 

Ahh, that is a comfort, thanks! I don't mind being proven wrong, as long as what I write is at least plausible and makes sense.

[MasterAblar]

As to the comment about Rand, I am curious as to what you are referring to here? What makes you think he has constant access?

 

His comments to the Borderlanders while under the influence of the Guardians of Far Madding.

 

I thought so, I interpret that comment differently. Rand does not refer to the "present". He says that it would not have stopped him when he went to see Hurin, and could have used it if he had gone in. He doesn't mention if he could do so now.

 

Towers of Midnight: Chapter 51: A Testing

 

"You do not know how close you came to doom," Rand said softly. "If I had come to you but a short time earlier, I'd have returned those slaps with balefire."

"Inside the Guardian?" Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

"The Guardian blocks the One Power," Rand whispered. "The One Power only."

 

Rand is talking about the past here, if he had come before VoG. We do not know if he can access the TP after VoG.

It may be that he can, I am not saying he cannot, however, this quote does not confirm that he can.

 

Edit: Bold is mine.

 

I've always interpreted this in the same way. To me he's talking about what he would have done back then.I don't think it really says anything about his ability to channel the TP at present. It seems rather odd to me that the DO would still be allowing Rand to channel the TP now.

[Majsju]

There might very well have been similar ter'angreal during the AOL. Or LTT, who was generally cpnsidered a pretty smart guy has quite a bit of understanding of how TP works. Or some reason we have not even thought of.

 

Ok leaving aside the "it's possible" in the sense that "anything is possible" because it hasn't been ruled out, there would be no reason for such a thing in the AoL. Nor has there even been a hint from Rand or any Forsaken on the topic which would be likely if it were the case. By far the simplest explanation is Rand meant exactly what he said. It's not definitive no, but it is far from some mystery.

 

No reason? How about there being a war, where about half of the worlds channelers are on the enemy side. I'd say a ter'angreal that could stop channeling could prove to be quite useful. For example you could use it to protect non-channelers doing something important, without having to sacrifice your own channelers to babysit them.

 

Similar to why a paralis-net would be useful. When your enemy has a weapon, you do two things. one is to try to make bigger and better weapons (sa'angreal), the second is to figure out how to mess with your enemys weapons.

 

My point is that we just don't know. And even if a majority of the fans on DM believes something, it does not make that thing true. Again, Lex taimandred. Many of the people who believed in that were just as convinced that they had found overwhelming evidence, some to the point that they still will not completely drop it, even though RJ himself repeatedly debunked it.

[Suttree]

My point is that we just don't know.

 

And my point is there is no textual evidence to support it. Zero. Add that to what is the simplest explanation for what Rand meant and we have valid reason for the majority of the fan base thinking it is so. Once again Taim/Demy is such a different scenario than Rand's statement as to not even be comparable. Even with that there were many reasons why that theory didn't fit that plenty of fans argued for.

 

Once again, no it's not conclusive but it is far more likely than all of the convoluted speculation being tossed about. I do see your point however, it is true we can not be sure.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Suttree

[Byzantine279]

It could simply be Rand infering from what he knows about the working of the Guardian, where it has two, seperate, layers one that blocks Saidin and the other Saidar

[StudioXephon]

As to the comment about Rand, I am curious as to what you are referring to here? What makes you think he has constant access?

 

His comments to the Borderlanders while under the influence of the Guardians of Far Madding.

 

 

Yes exactly. He would have slapped them all with balefire. Guardian of Far Madding has no effect on True Power access.

[Suttree]

I've always interpreted this in the same way. To me he's talking about what he would have done back then.I don't think it really says anything about his ability to channel the TP at present. It seems rather odd to me that the DO would still be allowing Rand to channel the TP now.

 

Interview: 2011

 

 

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Shane Crenshaw (2 August 2011)

 

When Rand saved Ituralde from the Trollocs, did he use the True Power or saidin?

Brandon Sanderson (2 August 2011)

 

Rand has resisted using the True Power except for that one dangerous moment. He can still sense it, though.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I've always interpreted this in the same way. To me he's talking about what he would have done back then.I don't think it really says anything about his ability to channel the TP at present. It seems rather odd to me that the DO would still be allowing Rand to channel the TP now.

 

Interview: 2011

 

 

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Shane Crenshaw (2 August 2011)

 

When Rand saved Ituralde from the Trollocs, did he use the True Power or saidin?

Brandon Sanderson (2 August 2011)

 

Rand has resisted using the True Power except for that one dangerous moment. He can still sense it, though.

 

Ahhhhh, that settles it.

 

(I could get reallllly nit-picky and claim that "sensing" doesn't necessarily mean he can access it. Much like those who are shielded.)

 

But no, pretty clear you are correct here.

 

This is interesting in a few ways.

 

1. Could the DO be unaware of this still? Suggests some serious weakness in the DO's defences. (although, I do not believe this theory)

 

2. The DO is hoping Rand will succumb to temptation, using it as bait. Which could mean we can theorise possible ways the Shadow will attack Rand (like putting him in a situation like Semirhage incident, where the TP is the only way he can escape/survive.)

 

A whole lot of other possibilities, but this is not the thread to extrapolate on that,

[Sharaman]

The GLoD knows he can deny Rand access to TP anytime since it comes straight from Him. At worst, he would also have to cut off Moridin So He leaves it on the table as a temptation.

Or The GLoD genuinely doesn't know because Moridin has acted as the node or proxy.

[yoniy0]

Just two things, Barid.

First, what made you think the a'dam and Sad Bracelets were made in the AoL? I'm not completely sure about the DB (the first copy was cuendillar, so perhaps it was?), but we know when the a'dam came to be.

 

Secondly, reread LTT's reaction to Rand's channeling the TP, and tell me if you think he ever touched it himself. I guess it's funny to talk of LTT like a real person; Tell me if Rand has ever touched it before, that he remembers.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just two things, Barid.

First, what made you think the a'dam and Sad Bracelets were made in the AoL? I'm not completely sure about the DB (the first copy was cuendillar, so perhaps it was?), but we know when the a'dam came to be.

 

Secondly, reread LTT's reaction to Rand's channeling the TP, and tell me if you think he ever touched it himself. I guess it's funny to talk of LTT like a real person; Tell me if Rand has ever touched it before, that he remembers.

 

1.The Domination Band we know comes from the AoL, when Semirhage uses it on Rand she comments on how she had always wanted to use it on LTT and we can also assume that a female version was also available, or at least researched. You are correct about the a'dam though, I just remembered it being mentioned as a post-AoL thing.

 

2. I am not saying that he actually channelled it, although I don't rule it out, but I read it as he was familiar with at least sensing it. Granted, LTT is LOATHE to touch the stuff, and probably never used it, but at least has some experience with touching it. In regards to the question of the Guardian, LTT need not have actually channelled it in any case, simply having access would allow him to confirm that he could or could not channel it in a certain environment.

 

Unless you know of a way he could recognize the TP ?

 

True, he does not "say" (heh, how else can you describe the voice?) the TP specifically, and he says "HIM" (presumably the DO). That is a fair enough point I suppose.

 

But again, it comes down to the fact that I do not know what other situation LTT/Rand would have recognized the TP.

 

(If you were thinking when he touched the DO to seal the bore, I suppose that could be true, I have no idea if touching the DO is comparable to the TP, so i cannot comment, unless you have something that states it is?.)

 

Also worth mentioning, although the point cannot really be confirmed or denied, the DO seems to be allowing Rand access, as bait of sorts. Is it too much of a leap to suggest it did the same with LTT?

[yoniy0]

Semirhage said nothing about wanting to collar LTT. She simply calls Rand Lews Therin, and she said she was waiting to collar him. As in, ever since Egenin gave them that first DB to duplicate. At least, that's the simplest explanation (so until someone who read the BWB comes here with a different answer, I see no reason to assume she had knowledge of it before the Breaking. Remember, Rand didn't know them in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box; Nynaeve had to tell him what they were).

 

Now, LTT's voice said "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM." Does that sound like memories of familiarity with the TP? To me, it sounds like someone who's aware of the existence of the TP, but has never touched it, and never would had he the opportunity. The same way that I knew exactly what it was before LTT suggested it, before Semirhage's reaction could confirm it. A third reservoir, neither saidin nor saidar? What else could it be?

 

EDIT: sorry, Firefox crashed a few times, so I wanted to make sure the post goes through. I forgot to say, the game the DO plays this time around isn't the same as last. Last time, LTT was a full grown man, sure of himself (but more fragile, more arrogant). This time, Rand was a youth. The DO tried to break his spirit, and Rand confesses that, were he still LTT, it would've succeeded. That seems as good a proof as any that the DO never tried the same with LTT (although, he sure did cause him grief. Just not for the same end). It's not surprising to me that LTT was never tempted with the TP.

Edited April 11, 2012 by yoniy0

[Barid Bel Medar]

Semirhage said nothing about wanting to collar LTT. She simply calls Rand Lews Therin, and she said she was waiting to collar him. As in, ever since Egenin gave them that first DB to duplicate. At least, that's the simplest explanation (so until someone who read the BWB comes here with a different answer, I see no reason to assume she had knowledge of it before the Breaking. Remember, Rand didn't know them in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box; Nynaeve had to tell him what they were).

 

Now, LTT's voice said "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM." Does that sound like memories of familiarity with the TP? To me, it sounds like someone who's aware of the existence of the TP, but has never touched it, and never would had he the opportunity. The same way that I knew exactly what it was before LTT suggested it, before Semirhage's reaction could confirm it. A third reservoir, neither saidin nor saidar? What else could it be?

 

Whoops, seems you are right about the Domination Band. Jeez I am getting rusty with this, too much time away from the forums and haven't read the books in a while.

 

HERIDFAN

How did Moghedien know about sad bracelets [Domination Band]? Semirhage said in The Gathering Storm that they were made after the Forsaken were imprisoned.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I believe Moghedien said she'd been doing some research about the Breaking and had learned about them.

 

As to LTT reaction, fair enough, it makes sense, although he could be referring to the fact that it was possibly accessed through Moridin, which is pretty unique and "impossible". However, I think that the point is moot really. Your point is valid, until we get more information, there is not much more to say about it.

 

Same with the possibility of the DO acting differently towards Rand. It does make sense what you say, and I am inclined to agree with your point, however, we simply don't know enough about it to even make any reasonable assumption. (I also include my theory in this as well)

Edited April 11, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Byzantine279]

It is possible that a connection with the TP leaves the Dark One vunerable to someone in a way, which makes using it as bait a gamble for him.

 

I think LTT knew because he knew the DO was a source of power avaliable to both men and women, and it certainly wasn't Saidin Rand was holding.

[Maleshub]

Whenever I read about the TP, I cannot help but wonder how much of the taint Nynaeve saw engulfing Rand's mind is from using the TP and how much is from Saidin? I would think that using the TP would somehow "extinguish" the Light in a mind and turn that person, or move him closer, to the Shadow.

[mb]

Ghenjei Tower; is/was there a limit for that like there was for the doorways?

If so, what is/was that limit?

[yoniy0]

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?

[Suttree]

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?

 

Like how many times you can enter?

[TootThatHorn]

ive got a question. when in the AoL they bored through and found the GLotD, like how deep did they bore? was it shallow or all the way? and if it was all the way then why doesnt he come out of his "prison"? to me it sounds more like a window than a door, if that makes sense...maybe since he exists outside the pattern he cant really be where the pattern exists, but can influence it much more? this is why i think we will hear the great lord, but we will never actually see him, or even have a major showdown, i know rand plans to annihilate him, but would that be possible from another plane? the karaethon cycle at the beginning of tGH says "Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end." so, a bad translation? a prophecy that wont be fulfilled? or true? guess thats a few questions lol

[mb]

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?

Like how many times you can enter?

Entering, yes; also using either race through it, and perhaps also exiting.

[RandA lThor]

I think that the bore threatened to have the dark one free, but thanks to the efforts of Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions, they were able to seal it up in time. I think it takes a lot of time for the Dark One to escape and he doesn't just come out magically when the bore opened. I think that his power got a lot larger and that the pattern was all screwed up.

[Byzantine279]

Ghenjei Tower; is/was there a limit for that like there was for the doorways?

If so, what is/was that limit?

 

Probably as many times as you can manage it and live. But I think you have to leave the tower before you can return, and well, that game is considered unwinnable for a reason.

 

Simply put, I don't think anyone has been insane enough to try more than once, and few enough survive that.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Torn Shadow

[Sharaman]

Semirhage said nothing about wanting to collar LTT. She simply calls Rand Lews Therin, and she said she was waiting to collar him. As in, ever since Egenin gave them that first DB to duplicate. At least, that's the simplest explanation (so until someone who read the BWB comes here with a different answer, I see no reason to assume she had knowledge of it before the Breaking. Remember, Rand didn't know them in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box; Nynaeve had to tell him what they were).

 

Now, LTT's voice said "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM." Does that sound like memories of familiarity with the TP? To me, it sounds like someone who's aware of the existence of the TP, but has never touched it, and never would had he the opportunity. The same way that I knew exactly what it was before LTT suggested it, before Semirhage's reaction could confirm it. A third reservoir, neither saidin nor saidar? What else could it be?

 

Whoops, seems you are right about the Domination Band. Jeez I am getting rusty with this, too much time away from the forums and haven't read the books in a while.

 

HERIDFAN

How did Moghedien know about sad bracelets [Domination Band]? Semirhage said in The Gathering Storm that they were made after the Forsaken were imprisoned.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I believe Moghedien said she'd been doing some research about the Breaking and had learned about them.

 

As to LTT reaction, fair enough, it makes sense, although he could be referring to the fact that it was possibly accessed through Moridin, which is pretty unique and "impossible". However, I think that the point is moot really. Your point is valid, until we get more information, there is not much more to say about it.

 

Same with the possibility of the DO acting differently towards Rand. It does make sense what you say, and I am inclined to agree with your point, however, we simply don't know enough about it to even make any reasonable assumption. (I also include my theory in this as well)

 

There's an earlier reference in TGS to LTT thinking of the "so-called True Power" in connection with Moridin (and IIRC, the Shadar Logoth meeting) . So he certainly knows what it is, in theory. Hardly surprising, given the AoL War. This doesn't mean he's ever accessed it though he may have heard descriptions of what it felt like. The DB is referenced several times as a tool created during the Breaking - in Moggy's convo with Nyn. It makes sense anyway, why would you need to make it until saidin had been tainted? Moggy had to research it post-escape and so presumably did Semi, given her explanation of how it worked to Rand.(Sidelight: did she recruit "volunteers" from the BT or is there another group of non-FS, DF saidin-users?) .

[Luckers]

A limit for what, @mb? What sort of limit?

Like how many times you can enter?

Entering, yes; also using either race through it, and perhaps also exiting.

 

By Thom's two openings, I doubt theres a limit.

 

ive got a question. when in the AoL they bored through and found the GLotD, like how deep did they bore? was it shallow or all the way? and if it was all the way then why doesnt he come out of his "prison"? to me it sounds more like a window than a door, if that makes sense...maybe since he exists outside the pattern he cant really be where the pattern exists, but can influence it much more? this is why i think we will hear the great lord, but we will never actually see him, or even have a major showdown, i know rand plans to annihilate him, but would that be possible from another plane? the karaethon cycle at the beginning of tGH says "Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end." so, a bad translation? a prophecy that wont be fulfilled? or true? guess thats a few questions lol

 

The bore went all the way through the pattern, but was too small for him to do more than stick a metaphorical pinky finger through. [there's 'your dark lord is so fact joke in there somewhere, but I'm too tired to develop it with the keen wit such masterful humour deserves]

[Tyzack]

I'm pretty sure they died and never reached the Tower, but after re-reading the Rand's trip through Rhuidean, I am curious as to what became of the two "ancient" Aes Sedai who were burn away by the last of the Jenn.

 

Kind of a sad face moment releasing that they were probably all murdered in the middle of no-where; the last remenants of a forgetten time.