Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[mb]

Kaisea was Marli Noichin?

And Kaisea chose the name Kaisea?

 

 

Would Ramshalan remember the proper events of his visit at Natrin's Barrow since the Compulsion on him was removed by balefire?

[Luckers]

Kaisea was Marli Noichin?

And Kaisea chose the name Kaisea?

 

I think they are two seperate women. Certainly they have different personality traits, though they both agree they should be leashed.

 

Would Ramshalan remember the proper events of his visit at Natrin's Barrow since the Compulsion on him was removed by balefire?

 

We don't know. Maybe.

[Eggplant]

Okay, so the Bore allowed the DO to influence the world. People started doing all manner bad things, killing people, stealing,cheating on their wives, peeing in swimming pools, whatever. After that you have a century of so of society slowly crumbling under his influence, and then about ten years of the War of Power. My question: why didn't the Forsaken and other darkfriends that could channel just pry the Bore all the way open and let him out? Is it that difficult to do? Surely the Shadow could have linked a bunch of channelers and use some sa'angreal or something.

[Luckers]

Okay, so the Bore allowed the DO to influence the world. People started doing all manner bad things, killing people, stealing,cheating on their wives, peeing in swimming pools, whatever. After that you have a century of so of society slowly crumbling under his influence, and then about ten years of the War of Power. My question: why didn't the Forsaken and other darkfriends that could channel just pry the Bore all the way open and let him out? Is it that difficult to do? Surely the Shadow could have linked a bunch of channelers and use some sa'angreal or something.

 

It would appear it involves more than just channeling. The Light was able to stop a plot to do precisely what you suggest, and it was this which began the war of the shadow, so yeah... it likely involves some effort, or specific machinery that can be easily neutralized. I've speculated in the past that maybe the ter'angreal Nynaeve and Elayne found in the Tower using need in TAR that could help Rand, and bind the Aes Sedai to him, was involved in the drilling of the bore (and thus could be used to help the sealing). If it required a lot of people and effort it would explain both why it would bind the Aes Sedai to him--because both he and they would be needed--and why the Light was able to thwart the Shadow's use of it.

[badumboom]

Any Idea why the Aes Sedai traveling with Mat didn't learn traveling from Verin, nor did they seem the least bit interested in the fact that it had been rediscovered even though they had to have passed though and Saidar created gateway to get to Caemlyn?

[Eggplant]

It would appear it involves more than just channeling. The Light was able to stop a plot to do precisely what you suggest, and it was this which began the war of the shadow, so yeah... it likely involves some effort, or specific machinery that can be easily neutralized. I've speculated in the past that maybe the ter'angreal Nynaeve and Elayne found in the Tower using need in TAR that could help Rand, and bind the Aes Sedai to him, was involved in the drilling of the bore (and thus could be used to help the sealing). If it required a lot of people and effort it would explain both why it would bind the Aes Sedai to him--because both he and they would be needed--and why the Light was able to thwart the Shadow's use of it.

 

Whao! What!?! I think I've overlooked something huge in the series. What ter'angreal is this?

[Eggplant]

Any Idea why the Aes Sedai traveling with Mat didn't learn traveling from Verin, nor did they seem the least bit interested in the fact that it had been rediscovered even though they had to have passed though and Saidar created gateway to get to Caemlyn?

 

Maybe for the same reason my cat and my roommate's cat stay in separate rooms eyeing each other warily and communicate via the occasional hiss or slap.

[Revim]

It would appear it involves more than just channeling. The Light was able to stop a plot to do precisely what you suggest, and it was this which began the war of the shadow, so yeah... it likely involves some effort, or specific machinery that can be easily neutralized. I've speculated in the past that maybe the ter'angreal Nynaeve and Elayne found in the Tower using need in TAR that could help Rand, and bind the Aes Sedai to him, was involved in the drilling of the bore (and thus could be used to help the sealing). If it required a lot of people and effort it would explain both why it would bind the Aes Sedai to him--because both he and they would be needed--and why the Light was able to thwart the Shadow's use of it.

 

Whao! What!?! I think I've overlooked something huge in the series. What ter'angreal is this?

Bowl of the winds. The thing that they stop the heatwave with and give to the Sea Folk.

[Eggplant]

Well I remember the Bowl of Winds of course. And I do remember it doing this weird autopilot thing even using Saidin, but I don't remember it having any other purpose other than being a gigantic meteorological reset button.

[damandred]

I seems to me that the DO is nearly free anyway and left unchecked the pattern will unravel soon.

Was that how it was in the AoL, the dead walking, city blocks turning to powder, people vomiting insects ect.

Because it doesn't seem posable that the world could keep turning like that while they fought a war for 10 yrs.

It appears to me that Rand thinks they must fight the DO now before its to late.

[Luckers]

It would appear it involves more than just channeling. The Light was able to stop a plot to do precisely what you suggest, and it was this which began the war of the shadow, so yeah... it likely involves some effort, or specific machinery that can be easily neutralized. I've speculated in the past that maybe the ter'angreal Nynaeve and Elayne found in the Tower using need in TAR that could help Rand, and bind the Aes Sedai to him, was involved in the drilling of the bore (and thus could be used to help the sealing). If it required a lot of people and effort it would explain both why it would bind the Aes Sedai to him--because both he and they would be needed--and why the Light was able to thwart the Shadow's use of it.

 

Whao! What!?! I think I've overlooked something huge in the series. What ter'angreal is this?

 

LoC chapter 13, Nynaeve and Elayne use need in TAR to try and find something that will help Rand, and bind the Salidar Aes Sedai to him. Firstly it takes them to the ter'angreal store room in the Tower, but they decide that getting into the Tower would be too tricky, so they do the search again excluding the Tower, and it leads them to the Bowl of the Winds in Ebou Dar.

 

But it still remains that there is a ter'angreal in the White Tower which would help Rand and bind the Aes Sedai to him.

 

Bowl of the winds. The thing that they stop the heatwave with and give to the Sea Folk.

 

They end up with the Bowl of the Winds, but they found a completely seperate ter'angreal in the Tower--or at least were on their way to finding one when they excluded Tar Valon from their search--it needn't have anything to do with the weather, either. In fact its unlikely.

 

Any Idea why the Aes Sedai traveling with Mat didn't learn traveling from Verin, nor did they seem the least bit interested in the fact that it had been rediscovered even though they had to have passed though and Saidar created gateway to get to Caemlyn?

 

Sanderson oversight.

[Revim]

They end up with the Bowl of the Winds, but they found a completely seperate ter'angreal in the Tower--or at least were on their way to finding one when they excluded Tar Valon from their search--it needn't have anything to do with the weather, either. In fact its unlikely.

 

I reckon that was one of the nine rods of dominion, the tower's 'Oath Rod.'

[Luckers]

They end up with the Bowl of the Winds, but they found a completely seperate ter'angreal in the Tower--or at least were on their way to finding one when they excluded Tar Valon from their search--it needn't have anything to do with the weather, either. In fact its unlikely.

 

I reckon that was one of the nine rods of dominion, the tower's 'Oath Rod.'

 

The Nine Rods of Dominion weren't ter'angreal, they were regional governers in the Age of Legends. The Oath Rod is what was called a binder, and completely seperate.

[damandred]

Can't get it out of my head.

Randland now is falling to bits. The blight has spread south in patches, whole city blocks are being turned to dust and the indication is that things are just going to get worse, as the DO grows in strength.

Rand effectively tells the borderlanders that if they would of killed him, they would of doomed themselves, the DO would have broken free and destroyed everything.

They need Rand to stop the DO breaking free, which begs the question, why didn't the shadow kill him when they had the chance.

I've heard the Fisher King reason, that the shadow needs rand to free the DO/destroy the world, but everything in the books point to them not needing him just needing him dead.

Why not just kill him then there would be no one to stop the DO breaking free.

[Suttree]

Why not just kill him then there would be no one to stop the DO breaking free.

 

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Rothaar

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

The DO wants the ultimate victory and killing Rand may not necessarily grant him that.

[damandred]

Why not just kill him then there would be no one to stop the DO breaking free.

 

Interview: Nov 1st, 1998

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

Rothaar

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

Robert Jordan

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

The DO wants the ultimate victory and killing Rand may not necessarily grant him that.

 

 

I get that and have read that quote before. What I mean though is that the DO IS breaking free, and if he does wouldn't that be the ultimate victory? And only Rand can stop him, which begs the question.....

Sorry if that's un clear the ideas so jumbled in my mind that its pretty hard to get down exactly what I mean.

It won't let me sleep.

[Suttree]

I get that and have read that quote before. What I mean though is that the DO IS breaking free, and if he does wouldn't that be the ultimate victory? And only Rand can stop him, which begs the question.....

Sorry if that's un clear the ideas so jumbled in my mind that its pretty hard to get down exactly what I mean.

It won't let me sleep.

 

My thought was he actually needs Rand to break him free all the way...important to remember there is nothing special about this turning of the wheel. There have been other last battles, I am sure at some point he has killed the Dragon Soul and it didn't result in a victory.

[damandred]

I get that and have read that quote before. What I mean though is that the DO IS breaking free, and if he does wouldn't that be the ultimate victory? And only Rand can stop him, which begs the question.....

Sorry if that's un clear the ideas so jumbled in my mind that its pretty hard to get down exactly what I mean.

It won't let me sleep.

 

My thought was he actually needs Rand to break him free all the way...important to remember there is nothing special about this turning of the wheel. There have been other last battles, I am sure at some point he has killed the Dragon Soul and it didn't result in a victory.

 

 

So he is just left sort of half free and free to cause chaos until the dragon is born again? I'm sorry Sutree I'm not trying to be stubborn but everything in the books especially ToM points towards him breaking free on his own if not stopped.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Don't feel bad, damandred...this is something I've racked my brains about as well.

 

In fact, I had a topic on the matter: Stalemates

 

Actually, I see you posted on it as well!

 

I still have yet to get a satisfactory answer, though.

[Revim]

They end up with the Bowl of the Winds, but they found a completely seperate ter'angreal in the Tower--or at least were on their way to finding one when they excluded Tar Valon from their search--it needn't have anything to do with the weather, either. In fact its unlikely.

 

I reckon that was one of the nine rods of dominion, the tower's 'Oath Rod.'

 

The Nine Rods of Dominion weren't ter'angreal, they were regional governers in the Age of Legends. The Oath Rod is what was called a binder, and completely seperate.

I see, I've learned something there. I still think the Oath Rod would have been it, the name 'binder' sort of makes it fit even more nicely.

[damandred]

Don't feel bad, damandred...this is something I've racked my brains about as well.

 

In fact, I had a topic on the matter: Stalemates

 

Actually, I see you posted on it as well!

 

I still have yet to get a satisfactory answer, though.

 

 

Thanks Imerickson, its good to know I'm not the only one losing sleep over this!

Like your observation that RJ used the term Champion of the Light instead of Dragon.

Just remembered one of Birgitte' tittles was Faith of the Light, don't know if that means anything.

*shrug*

[Luckers]

I don't think that was a title, but rather more an expression. Note the punctuation.

 

"Birgitte Silverbow. Faith of the Light, I'm not sure I still am that woman.

[Suttree]

Don't feel bad, damandred...this is something I've racked my brains about as well.

 

In fact, I had a topic on the matter: Stalemates

 

Actually, I see you posted on it as well!

 

I still have yet to get a satisfactory answer, though.

 

 

Thanks Imerickson, its good to know I'm not the only one losing sleep over this!

Like your observation that RJ used the term Champion of the Light instead of Dragon.

Just remembered one of Birgitte' tittles was Faith of the Light, don't know if that means anything.

*shrug*

 

Again take a look at the game of Sha'rah.

 

TPOD

Several pieces had varying moves, but only the Fisher's attributes altered according to where it stood; on a white square, weak in attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black, strong in attack but slow and vulnerable. When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end. The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by any piece, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color behind your opponent's end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not. Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha'rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory only coming with complete annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had failed, painfully.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Suttree

[damandred]

Don't feel bad, damandred...this is something I've racked my brains about as well.

 

In fact, I had a topic on the matter: Stalemates

 

Actually, I see you posted on it as well!

 

I still have yet to get a satisfactory answer, though.

 

 

Thanks Imerickson, its good to know I'm not the only one losing sleep over this!

Like your observation that RJ used the term Champion of the Light instead of Dragon.

Just remembered one of Birgitte' tittles was Faith of the Light, don't know if that means anything.

*shrug*

 

Again take a look at the game of Sha'rah.

 

TPOD

Several pieces had varying moves, but only the Fisher's attributes altered according to where it stood; on a white square, weak in attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black, strong in attack but slow and vulnerable. When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end. The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by any piece, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color behind your opponent's end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not. Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha'rah, if you took it before letting yourself be trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory only coming with complete annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that, once, in desperation, but the attempt had failed, painfully.

 

 

I get the whole Fisher King analogy, I really do. I have read that passage many, many times and it still doesn't answer my questions.

The world is on the brink the DO is growing stronger. I know people think he cannot break free completely without Rand to free him, but really would it matter if he was not completely free? The world surely cannot take much more of his influence. And if the DR was killed this turning, who and how would he be resealed, before the age of Legends comes again? Would someone else seal him? Would Rand be born again in the next age? And if so what if he is killed in that one too and the next and so on?

I'm sorry but what seems taken for granted by some here, just doesn't seem right to me. Everything in the books point to a DO victory if Rand isn't there, not a marginal victory, but, complete and utter. If the DO cannot completely win with the Dragon then the light doesn't really need him in fact he is more a danger to the light as he is the only one who can destroy it. Even with ages ruled by forsaken and DF' the DO must be sealed before the AoL comes again, even with a dead Dragon which bring back the questions from above. *sigh*

I'm starting ramble now so will stop, hope someone will answer these questions in a way my feeble mind can understand. Thanks.

[Nightstrike]

The world is on the brink the DO is growing stronger. I know people think he cannot break free completely without Rand to free him, but really would it matter if he was not completely free? The world surely cannot take much more of his influence. And if the DR was killed this turning, who and how would he be resealed, before the age of Legends comes again? Would someone else seal him? Would Rand be born again in the next age? And if so what if he is killed in that one too and the next and so on?

I don't think we know all the answers that has to do with who wins and how. The champion of the light has turned, so I guess someone else might be able to undo the Bore - unless, of course, the CoL was killed by the light's side and then summoned by the horn (or something like that?).