Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Guest PiotrekS]

During Egwene's Accepted test, she had a dream ter'angreal nearby which caused a "resonance". Could it also have caused something else, i.e. make Egwene's visions from the testing more relevant plot-wise (as a foreshadowing)/ prophetic than Nynaeve's or Elayne's?

[yoniy0]

During Egwene's Accepted test, she had a dream ter'angreal nearby which caused a "resonance". Could it also have caused something else, i.e. make Egwene's visions from the testing more relevant plot-wise (as a foreshadowing)/ prophetic than Nynaeve's or Elayne's?

I don't know. Nynaeve did see Sharina and a threat to the TR in hers. Of Elayne's we know practically nothing.

[Guest PiotrekS]

During Egwene's Accepted test, she had a dream ter'angreal nearby which caused a "resonance". Could it also have caused something else, i.e. make Egwene's visions from the testing more relevant plot-wise (as a foreshadowing)/ prophetic than Nynaeve's or Elayne's?

I don't know. Nynaeve did see Sharina and a threat to the TR in hers. Of Elayne's we know practically nothing.

 

Thanks! I've forgotten about Sharina - all I remembered from Nynaeve's visions were Aginor, "evil Wisdom" in Two Rivers and Lan, which seemed different from Egwene's experience. It seems the visions were combinations of foreshadowing and "fleshing out" the characters for the readers.

[Terez]

During Egwene's Accepted test, she had a dream ter'angreal nearby which caused a "resonance". Could it also have caused something else, i.e. make Egwene's visions from the testing more relevant plot-wise (as a foreshadowing)/ prophetic than Nynaeve's or Elayne's?

I don't know. Nynaeve did see Sharina and a threat to the TR in hers. Of Elayne's we know practically nothing.

 

Thanks! I've forgotten about Sharina - all I remembered from Nynaeve's visions were Aginor, "evil Wisdom" in Two Rivers and Lan, which seemed different from Egwene's experience. It seems the visions were combinations of foreshadowing and "fleshing out" the characters for the readers.

Nynaeve's test was far less prophetic than Egwene's, I think. But Brandon said it was significant that Nynaeve could remember how to channel and do so without burning out, so maybe there is something to her test as well. (I think it has to do with Nynaeve's strong will and ability to resist Compulsion.)

[yoniy0]

Nynaeve's test was far less prophetic than Egwene's, I think.

The problem with that is that you're basing a theory on the assumption that Egwene's testing was a foreshadowing. I happen to agree with that particular theory, but we can't use that in turn to show that the test itself was prophetic, not until the theory is confirmed in canon.

Still, Egwene was made Amyrlin and Caemlyn was attacked by Shadowspawn (though not laid to waste, not yet, and Rand isn't involved as of yet).

 

PS I do so wish Egwene remembered the sentiment she had after completing her test, though. The sooner the better.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Nynaeve's test was far less prophetic than Egwene's, I think.

The problem with that is that you're basing a theory on the assumption that Egwene's testing was a foreshadowing. I happen to agree with that particular theory, but we can't use that in turn to show that the test itself was prophetic, not until the theory is confirmed in canon.

Still, Egwene was made Amyrlin and Caemlyn was attacked by Shadowspawn (though not laid to waste, not yet, and Rand isn't involved as of yet).

 

PS I do so wish Egwene remembered the sentiment she had after completing her test, though. The sooner the better.

 

I hope the last part of Egwene's visions was not prophetic, but I wouldn't bet on it...

 

yoniyo, I guess you've meant "is it all there is for me, to fail him again and again?" etc. line? If so, I definitely second your wish!

[Terez]

Nynaeve's test was far less prophetic than Egwene's, I think.

The problem with that is that you're basing a theory on the assumption that Egwene's testing was a foreshadowing.

No, I'm not.

[yoniy0]

No, I'm not.

Allow me to rephrase, then. Other than the two points I've mentioned, can you think of another way her test was prophetic?

[Luckers]

The whole tone is fairly close... consider the FAQ entry...

 

From The Dragon Reborn

[TDR: 22, The Price of the Ring, 196-212]

Egwene's Accepted Test:

 

NOTE: This is not straight prophecy. The Acceptatron (tm David Chapman) ter'angreal seems to be a blend of the Rings of Rhuidean, or what the Portal Stone did to Rand and Co. on their trip to Falme in TGH (shows myriad possible futures), and memories taken from the testee's own mind, their own fears and hopes and so forth. In other words, some elements are "real", others are totally made up, and some are a mix of the two. For instance, Nynaeve's test put her back in a Two Rivers where a horrible woman named Malena had become Wisdom and was poisoning people, which Perrin's storyline later shows never actually happened, but a completely random bit of information from another part of her test (that her AS advisor as queen of Malkier was named Sharina) turns out to have a basis in fact - Nynaeve is floored to learn a "novice" named Sharina Melloy is with the Rebel camp [WH: 10, A Plan Succeeds, 237-238].

 

The Sharina thing could be just a huge coincidence (though Nynaeve doesn't think so), but Egwene's test gets put here in the prophecy section because hers was additionally an anomaly. The dream ring ter'angreal was in the room when Eg did her test, resonating with the Acceptatron, and as a result her made-up scenarios seemed to be a lot closer to prophecy than Nynaeve's were. Certainly it provided her with true information that she could not possibly have known or guessed independently - that a channeler can be forcibly turned to the Shadow, for example.

 

So, what happened during Egwene's Accepted test? She sees herself married to Rand with a daughter, in the ruins of the Caemlyn Palace with a half-mad Rand begging her to kill him, and as the Amyrlin Seat (more on that one in a second).

 

Well, the first one obviously never happened and never will; it was strictly a "might-have-been" kind of thing. The Caemlyn Palace scene might be a little closer to some possible future event, but it's not likely to play out exactly that way, since Rand has cleansed the taint from saidin. The third one, however, is worth examining in detail. (Note that each scenario in Eg's test is more prophetic than the last, as the resonance with the dream ring ter-angreal gets worse, so logically the last one is the closest to reality, though still distorted.)

 

Here are the relevant bits from the third scenario, and which are true, which are false or distorted, and which might not have happened yet:

 

-Egwene as the Amyrlin Seat: true, and fulfilled.

-Egwene as AS/Amyrlin without having held the Oath Rod: true, and fulfilled. It should be noted that she also sees herself as Ageless, which she cannot be unless she has has sworn on the OR (see section 2.3.03). This is an example of Egwene's own expectations and preconceptions influencing the test.

-Beldeine as Eg's Keeper: not currently true, but possibly true in the future (see Gabriel Wright's theory at the end of section 1.2.2).

-"Something called 'The Great Purge'": Almost certainly true, and refers to the upcoming Black Ajah Purge brewing in the Tower.

-Rand in chains and being gentled in the Tower: Maybe an averted possible future - Rand was almost taken back to the Tower as a prisoner in LOC - or possibly contains elements of something still to come; the second half of Min's vision (about women who can channel hurting Rand) has yet to be fulfilled.

-Being captured by Elaida: true, and probably fulfilled as of the end of COT (unless it's the BA who have Eg).

-The 13 + 13 trick being used on Egwene: This one is uncertain; it may be prophecy, or Egwene may have unconsciously incorporated it into the scene after -Sheriam explained it to her. Of course, Sheriam only explained it to her because the Rand from the previous Caemlyn scene had told Egwene about it, so... Possibly the fulfillment of Egwene's later Dreams about having her head on a chopping block, or the one about Gawyn swinging a door shut on her.

-A Red/Black sister named Gyldan, "Elaida's closest confidante": Has never appeared anywhere other than the test, so she is probably completely imaginary (though you never know; Beldeine showed up eventually.)

-Elaida as Black Ajah: Though Elaida certainly is Eg's "bitterest enemy", this is false (see section 1.5.3).

-Elaida usurping the Amyrlin Seat: true and fulfilled.

-"'Light,' she muttered, 'there's no other way short of starting a war inside the White Tower. And I may do that anyway.'": Yep.

[mackoY-kun]

I've been reading the summaries of the Books from "encyclopaedia-wot.org", and I've found that the comment about white cloaks smelling "wrong" from the wolves' perspective as well as Perrin's. Is it just me or is there some other explanation for them? For me, as I understand from reading the Books, they are sort of fanatical, and Byar is an extreme example of this. That's why the 'smell' wrong. They are too "zealous" compared to other people.

[Never]

MackoY - I believe that to be so.

 

 

Could someone explain to me the nature of Mat having the DO's own luck, and how this is possible?

[Sharaman]

In Byar's case he's also apparently under Compulsion from Graendal.

That may cause a weird smell - Perrin can sort of diagnose madness (Prophet/ Rand) because he can smell emotions and madness leads to sudden shifts or very strong em. Maybe fanaticism also has that effect on scent.

[ironisles]

MackoY - I believe that to be so.

 

 

Could someone explain to me the nature of Mat having the DO's own luck, and how this is possible?

 

Read this thread

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/62940-mats-luck-is-the-dark-ones/

[Guest PiotrekS]

Luckers, thanks for the entry you quoted. I think it is right to note that there seems to be a connecion between the size of resonance and the amount of foretelling in the vision, as opposed to simply personal fears and expectations. Therefore the third vision would be an almost "pure" foretelling with only slight alterations, so I guess we can expect some dramatic Rand/Egwene scene in AMoL.

Damn.

 

As to the Whiteclaks, wasn's there as analogy between overzealous humans (Whitecloaks) and rabid animals? Whitecloaks smelled to the wolves as rabid animals would, because of their fanaticism and propensity for violence.

[mackoY-kun]

Dalresin Damodred

 

A high ranking Cairhienin noble of House Damodred. Brothers Aldecain, Moressin and King Laman. Father of Taringail, Anvaere, Innloine and Moiraine. He is a scholar.

 

This is from encyclopedia-wot.org. If this is correct, this make Moiraine "Anut" to Elayne, Gawyn and Galad. I'm pretty sure both Elayne and Moiraine was in Tear when rand took Calandor, but don't show any indication that they are related. Do they know they are related? If yes, why do they not at least say "Hi Aunt AS Moiraine"/"Hi Niece Daughter Heir"?

[Terez]

Non-immediate relations are not given that much importance among the Andoran nobility. Galad has some Mantear relations, but there's no indication that they were in any way close.

[Lisa Campbell]

Sharaman

 

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28-August 09 Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:41 PM

 

mackoY-kun, on 31 August 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

 

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with ToG, which is that?

 

On a side note, why can Perrin wolf-telepathy Boundless when he is actually a Man?

And why is it that Elyas is never mentioned to go to the "Wolfdream" aka TAR?

Has Elyas' AS ever been revealed yet? If yes, who is she?

 

More additional Qs;

At the end of tGS, Egwene notes that the rebel's emissary to the BT has not reported for quite a while and that they should have been able to because they can travel (and Nynaeve travel to their camp to get Lan's warder bond), even if it is just to report that they have yet to bond Ashamans because of a delegation from the Tower previously under elaida (Tarna and Co.)

 

 

ToG = Tower of Ghenjei. I'm assuming from your other Qs that you've read ToM.

Perrin can apparently telepath anybody who thinks like a wolf. Boundless is a wolf-brother so he's accessible.

Elyas deliberately avoids the wolf dream (aka TAR) as he tells Perrin because he knows it's dangerous.

Yes, we know Elyas' AS - he mentions her and she also appears in New Spring. Her name is Rina Hafden.

What is the Q with respect to the emissaries to the BT? No, they haven't reported back.

 

When Perrin communiucated with Boundless/Noam it was in the dream. Boundless was found near the place he originated in, Jumara?, Ghealdan. I'm assuming that Perrin would be able to communicate to any wolf or wolf brother in the dream. The fact that Elyas avoids the dream only backs up the theory so far as to Perrin not encountering him there.

[Leyrann]

I heard some hints (most on Theoryland) that there is a theory that Faile is a Forsaken. Does this theory exist, or did I just read it the wrong way?

[capuga]

I heard some hints (most on Theoryland) that there is a theory that Faile is a Forsaken. Does this theory exist, or did I just read it the wrong way?

 

If it does it's a terrible theory (but not one I've seen on this site before). Do we even have any un-accounted for female forsaken? We get enough POVs from her during the Shaido captivity to know that she's on the up and up.

[Leyrann]

Indeed. I wanted to DESTROY it if it existed...

[Terez]

There are a lot of joke theories at Theoryland (though I've never heard of that one). Berelain=Moiraine, for example. Evil Min. And then there's Felix/Dida. You can never be sure if all his theories are a joke or if he really believes them.

[capuga]

There are a lot of joke theories at Theoryland (though I've never heard of that one). Berelain=Moiraine, for example. Evil Min. And then there's Felix/Dida. You can never be sure if all his theories are a joke or if he really believes them.

 

I love Felix/Dida. He seems so sincere in his craziness. It's either a really good, funny act. Or he's amusingly crazy without knowing it. Entertaining (and crazy) either way.

[Suttree]

There are a lot of joke theories at Theoryland (though I've never heard of that one). Berelain=Moiraine, for example. Evil Min. And then there's Felix/Dida. You can never be sure if all his theories are a joke or if he really believes them.

 

I love Felix/Dida. He seems so sincere in his craziness. It's either a really good, funny act. Or he's amusingly crazy without knowing it. Entertaining (and crazy) either way.

 

We need to start a bring back Felix Pax campaign. DM is always more entertaining when he is around.

 

Also I've discussed this with Terez before but if you are willing to sift through all the nonsense, it's amazing how he will unearth things you've totally missed. Usually it's a passage that is totally unrelated to what he's trying to support but it turns into a light bulb moment for something you have been trying to work out.

[MasterAblar]

So since Rand lost his left hand, does that mean he can only use his right hand for the "arrow of fire" weave? Or will his left stump work just as well?

[capuga]

There are a lot of joke theories at Theoryland (though I've never heard of that one). Berelain=Moiraine, for example. Evil Min. And then there's Felix/Dida. You can never be sure if all his theories are a joke or if he really believes them.

 

I love Felix/Dida. He seems so sincere in his craziness. It's either a really good, funny act. Or he's amusingly crazy without knowing it. Entertaining (and crazy) either way.

 

We need to start a bring back Felix Pax campaign. DM is always more entertaining when he is around.

 

Also I've discussed this with Terez before but if you are willing to sift through all the nonsense, it's amazing how he will unearth things you've totally missed. Usually it's a passage that is totally unrelated to what he's trying to support but it turns into a light bulb moment for something you have been trying to work out.

 

Ha. Yeah, I wouldn't mind having him around again. Not sure he'll come back though, I don't think he likes Luckers and the mean admins here though.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Mark Grayson