Post tGS Predictions of the End (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

So, what were your predicitions for how the series ended? Did tGS change them, and if so how?

[1eejit]

Yes.

After hearing Moridin's fatalism about the endless turnings of the Wheel and the inevitability of the DO's eventual success I predict that Rand's goal to kill the Dark One will be fulfilled.

Otherwise the reader is left with the suspicion that it was all for nothing, in some age, some future turning of the Wheel the DO will win. And I think given the Wheel turns endlessly and everything has repeated many times that the period RJ wrote about is one which will finally change this and end the struggle with the DO.

 

I suspect that Fain will be absolutely instrumental in Shai'tan's death, as he's a wild card outside of the normal pattern, unique to this age - this turning, and harbors a huge grudge against the DO.

[apbadd]

I suspect that Fain will be absolutely instrumental in Shai'tan's death,

 

Makes sense to me.  It is similar, i believe, to Ghollum, in LOTR.  While it wasn't intentional, without him popping up at the right time Frodo may not have been able to defeat Sauron (by destroying the ring of course).

[Bob T Dwarf]

I suspect that Fain will be absolutely instrumental in Shai'tan's death,

 

Makes sense to me.  It is similar, i believe, to Ghollum, in LOTR.  While it wasn't intentional, without him popping up at the right time Frodo may not have been able to defeat Sauron (by destroying the ring of course).

 

Yeah.  Fain has his "precious," alright.

 

Question:

 

TGS pretty well established that the Seanchan personify Order.

 

What does that do to the line of prophecy the reads, "Order burns to clear his path..."?

 

Does that mean that Rand will get his truce and that the Seanchan will be in the vanguard of his forces?

Or does it mean that Rand will have to destroy them in order to finally have a clear path to TG?

[NegaWalker]

I agree about Fain. He almost seems to represent another side of the Shadow. Such as the Male and Female halves of the One Power, its almost like the DO and whatever power Fain has in him is almost his equal and opposite.

 

I'm very curious indeed about all of that and what happens.

 

As for predictions, I did always think Rand would go too far, but I didn't expect him to go that dark or that grim. I thought Egwene would get the tower, but it was a delight how it happened. That all the subtle plots were just for women hungry for power.

 

I expect Fain to be pivitol. If failing that he'll survive through the end and sit overlooking it all and say 'Now its my turn.' The Fourth Age will have to have its own trials and tribulations... and Fain and his taint could be something to shake the foundations of the world.

[Lord of the Morning]

TGS more or less confirmed most theories on the end.  Min's discovery that rand must break the seals is later confirmed by lews therin.  I also like that Callandor is now the focus of Rand's plan, always wondered why callandor was mentioned in the prophecies and specifically set aside for the DR, yet rand relies more on the choedan kal. 

I liked the tactics Rand, Bashere and everyone else developed for the last battle as well, it would not be a good idea to fight in the blight, but this battle is going to ravage the borderlands, prolly most of arad domon, andor, and cairhien as well, though Tar Valon will stand.

 

TGS really had the feel that this is it, the preparations are almost complete, rand and Egwene are ready for the last battle, and mat/perrin/loial/logain/Lan have 1 month to get their shit together before the storm breaks.

[aunt_pol]

You just reminded me of something there, Bob, when you mentioned how the Seanchan do indeed seem to personify Order...

 

Fel's note - Belief and Order give strength...

 

Anyone know what the Old Tongue for Belief is?

 

Prob nothin, but it is a little curious.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

TGS really had the feel that this is it, the preparations are almost complete, rand and Egwene are ready for the last battle, and mat/perrin/loial/logain/Lan have 1 month to get their shit together before the storm breaks.

 

Rand has finally be set in the right direction but I wouldn't say that he is quite ready for the last battle.  I think he still have some clean up work to do.  Particularly in Arad Doman.

[Shaidar]

I don't think the DO will be killed, just sealed away again.

 

This is how I interpret the Wheel cosmology.

 

As long as you get one single revolution, i.e. 7 Ages, without the Dark One breaking free, then the Pattern's loop is closed and the DO never breaks free.

 

However, because of memory fading to myth and vanishing, etc, THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING at any particular point of the turning WHETHER OR NOT THE DO will win or not in either this Age of the next six. You have to live it to realize the inevitable, or in other words the important things are all preordained (DO won't break free) - but unknowable to beings within Time.

[yoniy0]

I don't think the DO will be killed, just sealed away again.

 

This is how I interpret the Wheel cosmology.

 

As long as you get one single revolution, i.e. 7 Ages, without the Dark One breaking free, then the Pattern's loop is closed and the DO never breaks free.

 

However, because of memory fading to myth and vanishing, etc, THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING at any particular point of the turning WHETHER OR NOT THE DO will win or not in either this Age of the next six. You have to live it to realize the inevitable, or in other words the important things are all preordained (DO won't break free) - but unknowable to beings within Time.

 

Problem with that is, RJ is quoted to say the Shadow *might* win, with each turn of the Wheel the DO learns something new, tries something different. Though personally, I have no problem in trusting to the Wheel. Yes, the DO might someday win. But not today, not tomorrow, and we (i.e. those of us not named Rand, at least) are still alive. This kind of an end to the series won't bother me (actually, I'm hoping for something along those lines. I simply HATE corollaries to the real world in a fantasy book).

[professorskar1]

Yeah, I don't know if I think the Dark One will be killed.

 

Without the Dark One, Ishamael's musings about life within the Wheel actually seem to be true.  What's the meaning of life when everything is just repeated over and over.  The Dark One existing means that at least at certain times during the turnings, there's a very REAL chance of the Wheel being destroyed (see Cadsuane's explanation of Min's viewings to that Aes Sedai who was like "Who cares?  We know the Light wins, her visions are always true").  With the Dark One gone, there's no chance of anything within the Wheel going too wrong, which stops people from acting, and reduces them to just robots.

[Dakota]

I'd like to think that the series ends with the wheel breaking and the cessation of the Pattern's influence/dictating how life proceeds.  Not sure if this means the destruction of the Great Lord, or if he's just sealed away permanantly.  I'd like to think that it will essentially free people from the chains of destiny, fate, and predetermination.  People live their lives without things being pointlessly repeated over and over.  If the Wheel is broken, why does that have to mean that everything ends, instead of life proceeding on it's own course from that point?

 

Ishamoridin theorizing that as long as history repeats itself over and over, that eventually the Great Lord -has- to win does have a point.  If all this does is lead to another cycle, it's another chance for him to win the fight and utterly destroy everything, and I think it would leave a bitter taste in all the reader's mouths to know that everything that the series built up to was only another battle later on down the line.  Whether it's Fain, or Rand having all memories of all his previous lives, or some other wild card, I think that this will be -the- Last Battle.

[Vassili]

I'd like to think that the series ends with the wheel breaking and the cessation of the Pattern's influence/dictating how life proceeds.  Not sure if this means the destruction of the Great Lord, or if he's just sealed away permanantly.  I'd like to think that it will essentially free people from the chains of destiny, fate, and predetermination.  People live their lives without things being pointlessly repeated over and over.  If the Wheel is broken, why does that have to mean that everything ends, instead of life proceeding on it's own course from that point?

 

Ishamoridin theorizing that as long as history repeats itself over and over, that eventually the Great Lord -has- to win does have a point.  If all this does is lead to another cycle, it's another chance for him to win the fight and utterly destroy everything, and I think it would leave a bitter taste in all the reader's mouths to know that everything that the series built up to was only another battle later on down the line.  Whether it's Fain, or Rand having all memories of all his previous lives, or some other wild card, I think that this will be -the- Last Battle.

 

Unless, of course, the DO can win but still be defeated at a later point.

[millnoc]

I've really been hoping ever since Fain became a major player that he wouldn't have a Gollum-like role to play, but it seems pretty inevitable.  I think my reason for this was just because of how obvious it is, ever since the beat-counterbeat of Rand's wounds was mentioned. 

 

I also think if this is really a major change in the Wheel/Pattern that it'd also be a big letdown.  That'd just be extremely contradictory with everything that we've been lead to believe - even the beginning of every book "an age yet to come, an age long past".  I don't think RJ would have done this - there isn't anything special about this particular turning of the Wheel.  This iteration of Dragon is nothing special, nothing should change.

 

For those who think that Fain's evil will somehow permanently defeat the DO, how will that come about?  A God-like entity dies/disappears forever?  It just doesn't make any sense that such a thing would be possible to me.

 

For those who "will be disappointed if this turning turns out to be nothing special", why?  RJ never pretended to be doing anything less than telling an exciting story.

[Cybertrolloc]

I find it a little annoying r.e. the this is just another cycle of wheel quote that at least came to my attention only recently. Something along the lines of why tell the story if things are just going to go back to status quo? I think RJ put it along the lines of he knew the beginning and end before starting seriously working on the project...so I guess if he's thinking trilogy that would have been okay, but the Wheel's been turning for two decades now! Donaldson managed to do something along similar lines on a smaller scale within a trilogy twice, others probably have as well (haven't checked out the Further Further Adventures of Thomas Covenant So Anti-Hero It's Going to Hurt yet). But it's his story to tell in his way too.

______

 

Thread topic:

 

It depends on how much the events of tGS have changed the overall if TG is held now, the shadow wins equation. Two forsaken down and a big hit to the BA should help matters, but these seem more periphery. (Yeah, things haven't changed much r.e. the Seanchan, etc...) Of course there's still some Mat/Perrin stuff to happen before the timelines converge and whatever is going on in Andor during Rand/Eg tGS events.

 

The main problem for me predicting the end is I think the wildcards will be important to critical. Rand's wounds, Fain, Shaidar Haran and so on. Whatever set of conditions it takes for DO to break free of his prison (chaos in the world + ??? = profit? Is there something the forces of light must do for DO's plans to work--definitely plenty of hints to that?) Superfade does seem a company man, don't see an outright betrayal there (I toy with Fain and Haran taking each other out, but don't see a viable set-up for it.)

[Jareth Bixx]

You just reminded me of something there, Bob, when you mentioned how the Seanchan do indeed seem to personify Order...

 

Fel's note - Belief and Order give strength...

 

Anyone know what the Old Tongue for Belief is?

 

Prob nothin, but it is a little curious.

 

Perhaps the Tinkers and their belief in the Way of the Leaf, the Aiel as well as they are pretty much one and the same.

 

Or perhaps the Whitecloacks. You don't get much stronger in belief than pure zealotry. How does that work though...

[1eejit]

You just reminded me of something there, Bob, when you mentioned how the Seanchan do indeed seem to personify Order...

 

Fel's note - Belief and Order give strength...

 

Anyone know what the Old Tongue for Belief is?

 

Prob nothin, but it is a little curious.

 

I think Belief and Order in the Old Tongue both translate as "Bela" ;)

[mateodh]

What if Rand lets the Seanchan conquer Randland altogether? He did take note at how the fallen countries were not mistreated. If he believes the Seanchan will ultimately advance on the Shadow once The Return is accomplished, he would be putting all of Randland in a position of strength and order that he himself is failing to bring.

 

Think about it.

Option #1: Let the South and East continue to fight off the Seanchan, and face the Dark One with a battle-torn force sandwiched between two seemingly insurmountable foes.

Option #2: Continue to try to work out a truce and team up against the Shadow. In the meantime, you still have a lot of loose ends and holes to fill, possible betrayals, cut off trade routes.

Option #3: Give them what they want and fulfill their prophecies like he has everyone else's, let them complete the Return, they restore order and help the starving masses. Now you have two unified, strengthened forces working together against the Shadow.

 

 

[Firebird]

I think Belief and Order in the Old Tongue both translate as "Bela" ;)

 

LMAO! So maybe we should use Bela to seal the hole in the Bore  :D

[Samudor]

Your theory about Rand surrendering to the Seanchan is fascinating. To be honest, it would be a very practical solution to a great many problems. Provided Tuon can be convinced to allow the marathdamane to run about free until the Shadow is defeated, I think it would work very well. Downside? Egwene will roast Rand on a spit for that decision- which would fill Elaida's Foretelling about him knowing the anger of the Amyrlin. The beginning of the next age will be a tale told in blood just like this age.

[Chivalry]

Your theory about Rand surrendering to the Seanchan is fascinating. To be honest, it would be a very practical solution to a great many problems. Provided Tuon can be convinced to allow the marathdamane to run about free until the Shadow is defeated, I think it would work very well. Downside? Egwene will roast Rand on a spit for that decision- which would fill Elaida's Foretelling about him knowing the anger of the Amyrlin. The beginning of the next age will be a tale told in blood just like this age.

 

This foretelling has always bothered me.  It would be nice if it simply went away.

[Rand Skywalker]

 

This foretelling has always bothered me.  It would be nice if it simply went away.

 

Agreed

[Samudor]

It's worrisome because it implies that Egwene might finally cross that line and be willing to sever Rand if necessary. I also would coincide well with a decision to support the Seanchan- the one thing that Rand could do aside from joining the Shadow that Egwene would go ballistic over(and rightfully so). It will be interesting when it does happen to see how she will react. That would be difficult for the Tower then- with every hand turned against them.

[Rand Skywalker]

It's worrisome because it implies that Egwene might finally cross that line and be willing to sever Rand if necessary. I also would coincide well with a decision to support the Seanchan- the one thing that Rand could do aside from joining the Shadow that Egwene would go ballistic over(and rightfully so). It will be interesting when it does happen to see how she will react. That would be difficult for the Tower then- with every hand turned against them.

 

That would make for some potentially very dramatic and effective scenes, sort of a fruition of Egs Accepted test.

[Chivalry]

It's worrisome because it implies that Egwene might finally cross that line and be willing to sever Rand if necessary. I also would coincide well with a decision to support the Seanchan- the one thing that Rand could do aside from joining the Shadow that Egwene would go ballistic over(and rightfully so). It will be interesting when it does happen to see how she will react. That would be difficult for the Tower then- with every hand turned against them.

 

Well I find it worrisome for a much more mundane reason.  Truth be told, I've never really liked Egwene, and the last thing the story needs, IMHO, is more power for Egwene (not to mention the Dragon on the receiving end of another witchslap).  Honestly, if Sanderson can just see it in his heart to start the last battle with all the AS leashed by the Seanchan (except for maybe Nynaeve and a couple of others), I'd be the happiest reader this side of the Spine of the World.  Not the Kin, mind you, just the AS.  They bug me to no end.