Semirhage (Spoilers)

[Anoxanmore]

I know at one point in the book, either Suian or Egwyne or someone shows another person the weaves for travelling, even though she isn't strong enough to make the gateway herself (due to Suian's healing from stilling or Egwyne's forkroot).  She can make and demonstrate the weaves, but can't actually make them function because she's not strong enough.

 

IIRC, it was Sorilea who showed Cadsuane the weave for Traveling even though she wasn't strong enough to make the gateway herself.

 

this also happens in TGS, when Ewegene shows the Novice's the weave for traveling but it won't work due to forkroot.

 

She shows it to the novices, true, but at that point, she's in a circle, and actually does make a gateway (in order to retrieve the white wand sa'angreal).

 

You're thinking of when Egwene shows the weave to Meidani.

 

Yup, I am. :) (I was trying to find it in TGS, since I have it next to me, it was Meidani)

[OptimusPrime]

So Ive just read Semirhages death and I cant resist.

 

That was by far the worst Forsaken death in the series. EVER. Even worse than Osan'gars.

 

First, we have glimmers of hope; Shaidar Haran turns up where she is being held. First thing I thought was DO SOMETHING, SHAIDAR! Nope. Secondly, after showing fear in the face of Shaidar, after being given a last chance and thinking to herself that disobeying Shaidar is the same as disobeying the Dark One... she disobeys him.

 

Thirdly, she became Moghedien/any James Bond villain. Oh look! I have you and with you I CAN WIN RIGHT NOW. Nah, I want to build up some suspense, you know, give you chance to somehow impossibly get out of the a'dam. Oh my! You did it! More fool me, for being crap.

 

I expected a hell of a lot more out of her.

[Dakota]

So Ive just read Semirhages death and I cant resist.

 

That was by far the worst Forsaken death in the series. EVER. Even worse than Osan'gars.

 

First, we have glimmers of hope; Shaidar Haran turns up where she is being held. First thing I thought was DO SOMETHING, SHAIDAR! Nope. Secondly, after showing fear in the face of Shaidar, after being given a last chance and thinking to herself that disobeying Shaidar is the same as disobeying the Dark One... she disobeys him.

 

Thirdly, she became Moghedien/any James Bond villain. Oh look! I have you and with you I CAN WIN RIGHT NOW. Nah, I want to build up some suspense, you know, give you chance to somehow impossibly get out of the a'dam. Oh my! You did it! More fool me, for being crap.

 

I expected a hell of a lot more out of her.

 

Personally, based on what we know of Semirhage, this does seem pretty typical of her.  She's a sadist, to the point she can't control her urges to inflict pain and misery on others, going by what we know of her from the AoL.  It really makes perfect sense that of all people, she would be the one who couldn't resist doing a little damage once she was freed but before she left.

 

It's why in another thread I postulated that it wasn't so much a "last chance" situation as "Give her enough rope to hang herself with" situation.  Whoever freed her probably knew who she was well enough to know that she would do exactly something of the sort.  There's the camp that thinks that the DO did this for this exact reason, knowing that when freed, she would push him to the breaking point that he could start corrupting Rand with the TP, and that Rand would probably kill her.  Not so much giving her a chance at freedom as letting her cause her own demise.  Of course, this is all speculation and there's evidence to prove otherwise, but some believe.

 

Mostly, you have to remember that at the end of TGS, we're essentially a third of the way through what was originally planned to be the final book in the series.  If the bad guys are going to start dying, now is when they have to do it, and as a result sometimes it'll be quicker and with less flair than we'd like.

 

Besides, how on earth would Semirhage's quick and lackluster death be any moreso than Graendal's?

[Impressive Bosom]

Some of the Wise Ones are most likely DF's but becuase Moghi knew Rands plan doesn't mean they told.  It was hardly a secret he was going to attack one of the Forsaken.  Ezra might of know the location of the necklace.  But my first thought when I read it was one the wiseones were behind it.

 

Doubtful Mordin would of willingly allowed Rand to access the True Power since that is the sign of the DO's favor of him.  DO might be doing things behind Mordins back.  The one power might of been his way to tempt Rand.

 

I don't understand the sacrifice of Semi since many others have failed the DO and been punished yet still allowed to serve.  With so few choosen that he is forced to bring them back why toss away one of his best?  How could he of known Semi would stay back and make rand kill Min and not just collar him and portal away? 

 

I think the aspect of this that many have not yet connected is that the DO WANTED Rand free to act, that he did not want him captured. He wanted his frustrated and heart-broken, raging and out of control, twisted and in pain... but free to act. Morridin is VERY clear on this when he gives the Forsaken their marching orders. Why? Because he planned on Rand doing EXACTLY what he almost did at the end of tGS. He wanted him to be his instrument of the destruction of the Wheel, of the fabric of reality completely just as he often said he would do... When Semi interfered with those plans, the DO had no problem allowing Rand to touch the corrupting source as a last resort to escape, further binding him towards the DO's plans if even unwittingly.

 

Verin was right that the Final Battle was not being played out the way Rand thought it was... and the first, greatest skirmish of that battle was fought on the slopes of Dragonmount between Rand Al'Thor and the Dragon Reborn, all according to the DO's plan.

[lsm]

on the subject of semirhage and seanchan, i wonder why no one ever noticed she had no seanchan accent, at least it wasnt noted that she had one in KoD, or even how did she learn the common language so quickly

[Muad Cheade]

on the subject of semirhage and seanchan, i wonder why no one ever noticed she had no seanchan accent, at least it wasnt noted that she had one in KoD, or even how did she learn the common language so quickly

She did have a light "Seanchan" accent. Mat notices that he could barely hear her it when he first met her. RJ has said that Ishmaeal gave the Forsaken mini-history lessons and taught them the language. Since they were some of the smartest people of the AoL, I would think learning a new language wasn't as hard.

[jemron]

Did RJ really say that?  I just assumed that the "modern" tongue was being spoken by the time Artur Hawkwing showed up.

[dholm]

So Ive just read Semirhages death and I cant resist.

 

That was by far the worst Forsaken death in the series. EVER. Even worse than Osan'gars.

 

First, we have glimmers of hope; Shaidar Haran turns up where she is being held. First thing I thought was DO SOMETHING, SHAIDAR! Nope. Secondly, after showing fear in the face of Shaidar, after being given a last chance and thinking to herself that disobeying Shaidar is the same as disobeying the Dark One... she disobeys him.

 

Thirdly, she became Moghedien/any James Bond villain. Oh look! I have you and with you I CAN WIN RIGHT NOW. Nah, I want to build up some suspense, you know, give you chance to somehow impossibly get out of the a'dam. Oh my! You did it! More fool me, for being crap.

 

I expected a hell of a lot more out of her.

 

Eh, no, she didn't. She didn't disobey Shaidar Haran, and she didn't give Rand a chance to get out of the Domination Band.

 

She pushed Rand beyond the brink by having him attack Min, but how on earth was she to know he would be able to free himself, using the True Power? She knows the Domination Band, and knows a'dam. What he did should not have been possible.

[dholm]

Did RJ really say that?  I just assumed that the "modern" tongue was being spoken by the time Artur Hawkwing showed up.

 

The "vulgar" tongue, which developed into the modern language, was in use amongst commoners before Artur Hawkwing's time, but nobles spoke the Old Tongue still (and are even supposed to do so in the modern world).

[Fox]

Pardon me if this was brought up already, but I scanned the forums for the topic and didn't see it.

 

With Semi's death Rand got to use the True Power to kill her, since the a'dam stopped him from using the True Source. Not much had been said about it except that it's a gift from the DO in Moggy's POV in CoS. How did Rand get access to it since it derives it power from the DO, which we know from SR while he is looking into his ancestors past. And now that Rand can use it do you think he will use it to seal the Bore anew and have the DO backlash on his own power supply?

[Dakota]

Pardon me if this was brought up already, but I scanned the forums for the topic and didn't see it.

 

With Semi's death Rand got to use the True Power to kill her, since the a'dam stopped him from using the True Source. Not much had been said about it except that it's a gift from the DO in Moggy's POV in CoS. How did Rand get access to it since it derives it power from the DO, which we know from SR while he is looking into his ancestors past. And now that Rand can use it do you think he will use it to seal the Bore anew and have the DO backlash on his own power supply?

 

It's been brought up in other threads (I don't remember which ones, but I do remember reading about this discussion).

 

From what I recall (which may be mistaken) was that the majority opinion was that using the TP to seal the bore, while a nifty idea, but probably isn't feasible.  Using the DO's own power to seal himself just sounds like it wouldn't work very well (it's been suggested that the TP is the DO's very essence.  Use a being's own essence to imprison themselves?).  Not to mention that whether Rand drawed the TP directly from the DO, or drew it through his link with Moridin, the DO would probably cut off that source as soon as it started.  No matter how many or few people I gave permission to use my power, the second I felt someone trying to seal me with it, I'd immediately cut off -everyone-, on my side or not.

[Eht Slat Meit]

First, we have glimmers of hope; Shaidar Haran turns up where she is being held. First thing I thought was DO SOMETHING, SHAIDAR! Nope. Secondly, after showing fear in the face of Shaidar, after being given a last chance and thinking to herself that disobeying Shaidar is the same as disobeying the Dark One... she disobeys him.

 

Thirdly, she became Moghedien/any James Bond villain. Oh look! I have you and with you I CAN WIN RIGHT NOW. Nah, I want to build up some suspense, you know, give you chance to somehow impossibly get out of the a'dam. Oh my! You did it! More fool me, for being crap.

 

Personally, I'm inclined to think of it as a type of Queen Sacrifice, an intentional move of dropping a powerful piece to gain a much larger benefit. Attaching a highly addictive, madness/and/death-inducing version of the One Power to the Dragon Reborn is just that sort of gain. In exchange, he loses a piece he doesn't care about (which could be any servant of the DO) and just got done failing him. Someone already said it about the win-win scenario - either Semi does as she's supposed to, or she fails him again and richly deserves being smoked straight out of the Pattern.

 

Having her torturing the snot out of him while the DO links him to the TP strikes me as way too convenient to have happened by DO-luck.

[Fox]

Pardon me if this was brought up already, but I scanned the forums for the topic and didn't see it.

 

With Semi's death Rand got to use the True Power to kill her, since the a'dam stopped him from using the True Source. Not much had been said about it except that it's a gift from the DO in Moggy's POV in CoS. How did Rand get access to it since it derives it power from the DO, which we know from SR while he is looking into his ancestors past. And now that Rand can use it do you think he will use it to seal the Bore anew and have the DO backlash on his own power supply?

 

It's been brought up in other threads (I don't remember which ones, but I do remember reading about this discussion).

 

From what I recall (which may be mistaken) was that the majority opinion was that using the TP to seal the bore, while a nifty idea, but probably isn't feasible.  Using the DO's own power to seal himself just sounds like it wouldn't work very well (it's been suggested that the TP is the DO's very essence.  Use a being's own essence to imprison themselves?).  Not to mention that whether Rand drawed the TP directly from the DO, or drew it through his link with Moridin, the DO would probably cut off that source as soon as it started.  No matter how many or few people I gave permission to use my power, the second I felt someone trying to seal me with it, I'd immediately cut off -everyone-, on my side or not.

 

Maybe, theories aren't really my thing. I thought it could be a possibility, but after Rand destroys the access key to Cheoden Kal(?) it's probably a better possibility that Callandor will be used while Rand is linked to with Moiraine and someone else, but thats another topic for another thread.

[dholm]

I believe it's been said that you could channel the True Power without the Dark One's permission, but that it would be extremely difficult to do so. I cannot recall who said it, though.

[Crael123]

I wish we had seen more of semi.....  :'( she had such.... potential for evill deeds and such... what a waste...  i mean.... murdering the entire seanchan court.... drenching the chrystal throne in blood of the empress... so priceless. what a gem.

[Impressive Bosom]

I wish we had seen more of semi.....  :'( she had such.... potential for evill deeds and such... what a waste...  i mean.... murdering the entire seanchan court.... drenching the chrystal throne in blood of the empress... so priceless. what a gem.

 

THAT'S a story I would have liked to have seen more of...

[Worm]

Personally, I'm inclined to think of it as a type of Queen Sacrifice, an intentional move of dropping a powerful piece to gain a much larger benefit. Attaching a highly addictive, madness/and/death-inducing version of the One Power to the Dragon Reborn is just that sort of gain. In exchange, he loses a piece he doesn't care about (which could be any servant of the DO) and just got done failing him. Someone already said it about the win-win scenario - either Semi does as she's supposed to, or she fails him again and richly deserves being smoked straight out of the Pattern.

 

Having her torturing the snot out of him while the DO links him to the TP strikes me as way too convenient to have happened by DO-luck.

 

This theory doesn't really make sense to me, Semi was doing what the DO wanted and she was just causing Rand a bit of pain first. The DO is the worst villain ever if that was his plan. Its like releasing your servant from prison and telling her to kill someone, following her, waiting until she has overpowered the person and is about to kill him and then stabbing her in the back in the hope that the knife will cut the person beneath her. It makes NO sense. 

 

Surely Rand turned to the Dark would be alot more effective than Rand with a dangerous uncontrollable weapon that can be used against the DO's servants but has a chance of causing him to go mad(er). I just can't see the DO giving his enemy a weapon to kill one of his servants who had just bound him. I mean the argument that the DO wanted to punish Semi makes sense but wouldn't it have been smarter if he waited for her to deliver Rand to him before killing her. Rather than letting Rand go free.

 

I mean its pure luck that Rand went crazier after the fight, no one could have predicted exactly what would happen to him (and are you sure the DO wanted to face Rand like that? It seems to me that if Rand had perfected Cuendillar mode then the DO would be facing an extremely dangerous enemy, just look at how he pwned Graendel)

 

No I think it is far more likely that one of the three happened.

 

1) Rand reached the "Second Void" Asmodean mentioned of his own accord and the DO had nothing to do with it.

2) He used his link with Moridin to draw the TP through Moridin (who had permission) like the book implies.

3) Moridin let Rand use the TP through him because their link caused him to feel the pain Semi was putting Rand through. this makes the most sense to me, we already know Moridin didn't want Semi rescued and it's likely he didn't know exactly what was happening to Rand so he had no idea of the situation. He only knew that he was in agony. (we know the link works like this because we see him rubbing the same arm Rand lost in pain in TGS)

[lordofsoup]

whats the second void?

[Impressive Bosom]

Personally, I'm inclined to think of it as a type of Queen Sacrifice, an intentional move of dropping a powerful piece to gain a much larger benefit. Attaching a highly addictive, madness/and/death-inducing version of the One Power to the Dragon Reborn is just that sort of gain. In exchange, he loses a piece he doesn't care about (which could be any servant of the DO) and just got done failing him. Someone already said it about the win-win scenario - either Semi does as she's supposed to, or she fails him again and richly deserves being smoked straight out of the Pattern.

 

Having her torturing the snot out of him while the DO links him to the TP strikes me as way too convenient to have happened by DO-luck.

 

This theory doesn't really make sense to me, Semi was doing what the DO wanted and she was just causing Rand a bit of pain first. The DO is the worst villain ever if that was his plan. Its like releasing your servant from prison and telling her to kill someone, following her, waiting until she has overpowered the person and is about to kill him and then stabbing her in the back in the hope that the knife will cut the person beneath her. It makes NO sense. 

 

Surely Rand turned to the Dark would be alot more effective than Rand with a dangerous uncontrollable weapon that can be used against the DO's servants but has a chance of causing him to go mad(er). I just can't see the DO giving his enemy a weapon to kill one of his servants who had just bound him. I mean the argument that the DO wanted to punish Semi makes sense but wouldn't it have been smarter if he waited for her to deliver Rand to him before killing her. Rather than letting Rand go free.

 

I mean its pure luck that Rand went crazier after the fight, no one could have predicted exactly what would happen to him (and are you sure the DO wanted to face Rand like that? It seems to me that if Rand had perfected Cuendillar mode then the DO would be facing an extremely dangerous enemy, just look at how he pwned Graendel)

 

No I think it is far more likely that one of the three happened.

 

1) Rand reached the "Second Void" Asmodean mentioned of his own accord and the DO had nothing to do with it.

2) He used his link with Moridin to draw the TP through Moridin (who had permission) like the book implies.

3) Moridin let Rand use the TP through him because their link caused him to feel the pain Semi was putting Rand through. this makes the most sense to me, we already know Moridin didn't want Semi rescued and it's likely he didn't know exactly what was happening to Rand so he had no idea of the situation. He only knew that he was in agony. (we know the link works like this because we see him rubbing the same arm Rand lost in pain in TGS)

 

I think you are perhaps missing a key aspect of this conflict. The DO doesn't (or at least, didn't) want to capture or kill Rand. He wanted as powerful as he had ever been and free to act in a manner that he believed was his own free will. Why? So that he could do what he almost did at the end of the book - break the Wheel and end the Pattern, the very things the DO said he was going to do. The DO wanted Rand as his unwitting instrument which was why Morridin made it clear that he was NOT to be hurt, but he was to be made to suffer, to know confusion and heartache, to drive him to madness... if everything was going to be unmade anyway, who cares if Semi went a bit earlier than the others?

 

Also, I can't give creedence to Morridin 'loaning him' use of the TP or being unaware of what was going on... otherwise it suggests that SH and Morridin (Nae'blis) aren't on the same page, which is awfully hard to believe. I believe Eht Slat Meit is absolutely on the right track here...

[Eht Slat Meit]

This theory doesn't really make sense to me, Semi was doing what the DO wanted and she was just causing Rand a bit of pain first. The DO is the worst villain ever if that was his plan. Its like releasing your servant from prison and telling her to kill someone, following her, waiting until she has overpowered the person and is about to kill him and then stabbing her in the back in the hope that the knife will cut the person beneath her. It makes NO sense.

 

2) He used his link with Moridin to draw the TP through Moridin (who had permission) like the book implies.

 

That second possibility of how he used the TP as you suggested is what makes this theory make sense, it gives this possibility a REASON for happening. Otherwise, are we supposed to believe the DO is stupid and this happened purely by accident of ta'veren luck? Does he seriously not understand the fact that his servant who is linked to the DO is also linked to Rand? That this access has the ability to whack any silly plan he erects via Semhirage? Does he not know his own servant well enough to believe that Semi would do something like that? It strains credulity that the DO is supposed to be that clueless.

 

The question then becomes why? IIRC, the Forsaken /excepting Moridin/ -fear- the TP, so much so they only use it at great need. Addicting/madness inducing/deadly to an extreme far beyond the OP. Either Semi suceeds and Rand gets 13/13'ed and turned, or she fails and he does it to himself with the TP. Win-win. I think we'll find as the other two-thirds of the story progress that he'll find swearing off it to be more difficult than expected. We don't know yet that the knife "failed to cut". In fact, I think Tuon's viewing of his black aura is a good indication that he's in deep guano.

 

As far as the "betrayal" goes, betrayal is in the eye of the beholder. She's a Forsaken ffs and should know better than to say some thing so abysmally stupid regarding the DO. She is a tool to the DO's ends, nothing more. If she dies serving those ends, so be it.  More importantly, I'm sure she knows that, and it was her shock at Rand wielding the TP that caused her to say it. In this case, her role was to either capture Rand or do something (again, this is her base nature) to him as to force him to use the TP.

[Worm]

OK a few things.

First of all the DO did not anticipate the Choedan Kal, if he had he would have sent Ishmael (who is equal to Rand in strength) to retrieve them and shatter the world. Infact it can be concluded that he is not aware of them (or there full potential) because all SH had to do was get Semi to retrieve the male one and give it to ishy. Of course thats only right if I assume that the convoluted theory that the DO is manipulating Rand into going crazy is true. So if your theory is correct the DO is completely oblivious to the Choedan Kal because there is no logical reason that Ishy couldn't destroy the world as easily as Rand could (and with much less prompting). That is stupid, the DO must know about the CK.

 

But it still doesn't make sense to me, I mean I see what you are trying to say but it doesn't seem to be a win win circumstance to me, if the DO knew that Rand could draw on the TP through Moridin (does the DO know they are linked?) why didn't he just cut Moridin off from it while Semi was capturing him? (a Rand turned to the shadow has a 100% chance of dcestroying the world on the DO's orders) Your theory seems to suggest that SH and the DO aren't working together, I find it far more likely that Moridin doesn't share everything he thinks every second of the day with the DO.

 

It may be that the DO doesn't want to kill Rand but we do know he wants to turn him to the shadow. If the DO's plan revolved around making Rand go insane to force him to shatter the world then... why? Just why? Seriously the other forsaken are extremely near him in power, Ishmael could break the world as easily as Rand could if he had the CK. If we assume that Ishy as as smart as he thinks he is and the DO's plan is actually to break the wheel then there must be some other reason for turning Rand to the shadow.

 

I'm waffling a bit but what I'm trying to say is that the DO's plan can't be to destroy the world with the CK. If he does want to turn Rand crazy then there must be something only Rand can do and WILL do if he goes insane. Considering how difficult it is to know what a madman will do I don't really see the DO relying on this to win, it seems too dependant on luck. For all he knows Rand will never draw on the TP again. (Demandred has used it before and he isn't addicted)

 

So if I believe your theory then Rand can do something no one else in the world can that will break the DO free. I don't think that we can really make conclusions about the DO's plan when we don't know what it is (why should we believe Ishy, it seems likely to me that he is just as wrong as anyone else).

 

[Sharaman]

What seems likeliest to me is that GLoD doesn't have a clear handle on the link between RaT-Moridin. He didn't realise that Rand could access TP via Moridin and hence, didn't cut it off. Moridin must have been in intolerable physical pain and distracted because of what was coming to him through the link while Semi was getting all cuddly with Rand. So RaT pulled the power - the time period required to grab TP, free himself and BF Semi and Elza was probably less than a minute. It was over before Moridin even realised what was going on. Unlike Rand, Moridin isn't used to coping with continuous pain and he wouldn't even have known why he was hurting. Shaidar wasn't around - he'd already split. Or else, GLoD may have intervened.  

 

The CK key being left behind was totally puzzling. Elza knew what it was, and when she opened the box, Superfade was around, meaning a direct link with GLoD existed when the key was discarded. The Maidens found it later and handed it over to Rand.

Of course GLoD knows about the CK. Superfade was instrumental in making HIS displeasure with Messaana going Awol at Shadar Logoth obvious. It's tough to imagine that GLoD didn't understand the mechanics of the cleansing and the sheer quantity channelled at SL since every channeler in Randland did.

 

The only thing I can think of, is that GLoD doesn't want any one of the Chosen to have the CK. This could be possible if Lanfear's statement "With that, we could challenge the Creator Himself" wasn't hyperbole. We know that GLoD doesn't like people getting too powerful in general, or channeling near SG. Still, SH could have just chucked it into the Aryth Ocean or hidden it, rather than just leaving it for the next male channeler who walked into Cadsuane' room to find.

 

 

 

[Sab]

As far as the "betrayal" goes, betrayal is in the eye of the beholder. She's a Forsaken ffs and should know better than to say some thing so abysmally stupid regarding the DO. She is a tool to the DO's ends, nothing more. If she dies serving those ends, so be it.  More importantly, I'm sure she knows that, and it was her shock at Rand wielding the TP that caused her to say it. In this case, her role was to either capture Rand or do something (again, this is her base nature) to him as to force him to use the TP.

 

 

 

 

Sure all the forsaken have grand enough view of themselves that they don't think the DO would just use them.  So it would come as a surprise to her that not only was she set up but the DO is allowing Rand to use the TP.  A punishment maybe, after all all the rest just got punished not tossed to the wolves. 

 

As for the Ck not being taken, Shadar probably didn't know it was in the box so didn't order it to be taken.  I assumed it was Elza who took it and either didn't reconize it or was being the good BA took exactly what she was ordered to.

[Vermillion]

There is the possibility that permission has to be given by the DO but it could that it can still be used without permission even though the DO has forbidden it.  If the Forsaken are told don't use it, I am sure they will not want to piss off the DO.  I have never seen it said they were cut off from TP.

 

I figure Rand just learned how to access the TP void through his link to Mordin.  He has been wearing red and black, just like Mordin resembled Rand.

 

One thing we do know is that the DO does not know everything.  The link between Mordin and Rand could have confused him and he may not even know what happened at all.

[Sharaman]

Unlikely Elza would fail to recognise it since she was a major participant at Shadar Logoth. But yes, she may have been muzzy with being taught strange weaves and fighting Verin's compulsion. It's also possible SH didn't see it, about as good an explanation as any, since it does account for Superfade's indifference.

It was a very well planned snatch and I'd assume that enquiries would be made by the minions of GLoD. GLoD and Moridin may jump to the right conclusions if they learn that the domination band was smashed since c'llar can't be broken by normal means. But Moridin may also have reason to keep quiet about it.