Graendal (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Brandon refused to give a 'toast' comment. Ramshalan disagrees. Discuss.

 

[Aleron688]

Brandon refused to give a 'toast' comment. Ramshalan disagrees. Discuss.

 

 

she's dead. he just didnt say it so that we would have something to talk about for the next year.

 

he also said that if she had killed asmo, that measly amount of BF wouldn't have brought him back... so there is NO point in discussing that here :)

[Firebird]

I believe she is dead because of the way the storyline was going at that point, i.e. it emphasized how hard Rand had become that he BF'd a woman and her entire mansion with hardly a second thought. This was such a low point for Rand's sanity and to have Graendal still alive undermines the whole scene somewhat. BS has said her name will crop up in the next book (note: he said her name would crop up, he didn't say Graendal the character would appear - though this could just be semantics). I think Moridin, perhaps, will confirm to the other Forsaken that Graendal is dead, and maybe mention at the same time that she offed Asmo.

[NegaWalker]

I expect she is toast. Unless she is the 'extra' Sulin.

[Shmuel Goldberg]

Didn't Graendal have the rules of Shara as 'pets' in the mansion?

 

I see many discussions about Shara and how it might or might not play a role in the next two novels. The one fact which is often quoted is that there's fighting in Shara (I think Rhuarc mentioned it). By kidnapping the rulers, is Graendal responsible for the fighting in Shara?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Didn't Graendal have the rules of Shara as 'pets' in the mansion?

 

I see many discussions about Shara and how it might or might not play a role in the next two novels. The one fact which is often quoted is that there's fighting in Shara (I think Rhuarc mentioned it). By kidnapping the rulers, is Graendal responsible for the fighting in Shara?

 

Yes.  The various factions there apparently blame each other for the disappearance.

[bushleague]

There's evidence for and against her death thats been presented over and over AND OVER again in less than a month.

 

I think she's alive... BS and RJ never liked to kill characters off screen... the exception being Sammael, but at least we know exactly where he was when mashadar comes down because Rand saw him.  We don't see Graendal when she "dies".

 

She'll be back and will play a key role along with demandred.  They are the only two reliable forsaken imo. Even Ishy got too power hungry at one point.

[DemandredFO]

I think she's alive, why would Moridin take her aside and say she's better at being the Spider than Moghedien.  Why would he make special note of this if she won't come back to bite.  The one thing said about Moghedien is just when you think she's dead out she pops.  How would it undermine the scene if she were alive?  Rand thought he killed her and judging by the ripple, he did kill all her pets.

[cannon]

I think she's alive... BS and RJ never liked to kill characters off screen... the exception being Sammael, but at least we know exactly where he was when mashadar comes down because Rand saw him.  We don't see Graendal when she "dies".

 

We see the evidence that she's there, and then Rand goes ahead and explains to Nynaeve (and the reader) exactly why we can never get any closer to her and legitimately kill her.

 

He goes through this whole diatribe about how she would always rabbit out of any dangerous situation.  And explains why this is the only way he'll ever be able to kill an enemy like this.  I thought it was a great speech and a brilliant piece of planning on Rand's part.

 

She's dead.  Its confirmed through the lack of compulsion.  And what's more, the author (through Rand's voice) explains to us *exactly* why we'll never see the death onscreen from her point of view.  What more do you want?

[Leezus]

I think she's alive, why would Moridin take her aside and say she's better at being the Spider than Moghedien.  Why would he make special note of this if she won't come back to bite.  The one thing said about Moghedien is just when you think she's dead out she pops.  How would it undermine the scene if she were alive?  Rand thought he killed her and judging by the ripple, he did kill all her pets.

 

And judging by Ramshalam's compulsion dissipating, Rand killed whoever put the compulsion on him. The entire point of using the blast of Balefire was as a litmus test for Graendal's death. It was a brilliant maneuver, really, and that's how it would undermine the scene. Especially after that awesome quote from Rand about punching her in the face.

 

In order for Graendal to be alive, someone in the Fortress would have to be powerful and skilled enough to lay the heavy compulsion on Ramshalam--and then THEY would have to die. She would have to expect that Rand would 'punch her in the face', and she would have to escape.

 

1. Graendal is known to be the best with the compulsion weave, so, I suppose it's believable that she could have taught one of her followers to do it. But it seems unlikely that that would ever have a use until now, and I can't see her expecting such need, and it's even more unlikely that it could simply be taught in moments here.

2.Rand's trick was very clever, but he admits that Graendal is much cleverer than he, so it's possible that she saw through his game. Except, he wasn't really playing a game, and I think that makes all the difference. What Rand did was so unlike any of the other plotting and trickery that anyone in the book uses. Graendal knew she was smarter than Rand, but I doubt she knew that Rand knew it as well. Without doubt, she saw that Rand was building himself a trap with steel bars and little pointy things, but it's outside of her nature to see that he planned to homerun her face with one of those steel bars.

3. Escaping she can do unnoticed. If she can lay the compulsion on Ram without Nyn noticing, she could weave a gateway.

 

[GrandpaG]

There's evidence for and against her death thats been presented over and over AND OVER again in less than a month.

 

I think she's alive... BS and RJ never liked to kill characters off screen... the exception being Sammael, but at least we know exactly where he was when mashadar comes down because Rand saw him.  We don't see Graendal when she "dies".

 

She'll be back and will play a key role along with demandred.  They are the only two reliable forsaken imo. Even Ishy got too power hungry at one point.

 

 

 

 

 

Usually when Rand uses balefire on a darkhound or a person there is a moment where the former object dematerializes in front of his eyes.

He didn't see that with Sammy because there was too much else going on around him.  Or did the mist thing get him?  It's been too long.  I don't remember.  As I remember, Rand did not actually see Sammy bite the dust.  I would not be shocked to see Sammy again.

 

The compulsion might or might not have belonged to Graendal.  Liandrin knows how to use it.  Verin knew how to use it.  Whoever used it is toast.  Could be the sexy Chosen lady.  Maybe not.

 

Just an opinion.  No proof (as usual).

[jemron]

Why not put a poll at the top of this thread:

 

Is Graendal "toast"?

 

1. Yes (she's dead!)

2. No (we haven't seen the last of her)

 

I am curious to see just how divided everyone is on this.

[Firebird]

How would it undermine the scene if she were alive?  Rand thought he killed her and judging by the ripple, he did kill all her pets.

The way I viewed that whole scene was like this (apologies for the length of this post).

 

Rand is slowly losing himself. His guilt about the people - especially the women - who have died in his name is consuming him. He is determined to be hard and to see his task through to the end and nothing - or no-one - else matters. Something inside him broke when he nearly killed Min and he has completely lost empathy for his fellow human beings.

 

At the start of TGS, for example, he wouldn't even allow Caddy to torture Semi - despite her being one of the most evil creatures to ever have lived - but by the middle of the book those feelings have long gone. He feels he can't beat Graendal in a fair fight, so he's not even going to give her the chance. He balefires her and all her pets and servants out of existence. He feels no guilt or remorse afterwards. Nor does he feel triumphant or satisfied or pleased that a mortal enemy has died. He feels ... nothing. As the story continues, Rand's blackness worsens and his desire for destruction increases.

 

For me, the killing of Graendal is one of those pivotal moments in defining Rand's mood. It emphasized, with shocking clarity, just how cold and inhuman Rand had become. How emotionless and unfeeling he was (and how these black feelings were affecting the world around him). I felt myself disliking the Rand in this book (as I believe the author intended). But I think this is a place Rand had to go, so that he could come out again on the other side - as he does on Dragonmount at the end of the book.

 

I feel that if Graendal should pop up again in the next book blowing a party whistle and shouting "Nah nah nah I'm not dead", it cheapens the whole tone of the previous book. We watched Rand lose his mind in TGS, then find it again at the end. He basically went to hell and back. And part of that journey involved the annihilation of Graendal. And if she hasn't been annihilated, somehow Rand's mental sacrifices will seem less real. I understand that HE believes she's dead, but for me, as a reader, I feel the impact of Rand's descent into blackness and Graendal's "death" scene are lessened if she's still alive.

 

Does this make sense to anyone?

[MatrixM]

Besides, it's the last book. The forsaken have to die at SOME point.  :P

[mossman87]

Besides, it's the last book. The forsaken have to die at SOME point.  :P

 

Yeah, if you put it in perspective, TGS was 1/3 of AMOL in the beginning.  So Graendal dying in the first third of AMOL makes complete sense, it's the last book.

[Lord of the Morning]

one word: pwned

[Crael123]

she totally became rands dead bitch. man that scene was intense. but man. she got told. so much for sneaky around and being to smart for everyone. even sly people cant stop from getting nuked

[stormcrow]

If she was still there when Rand decided to charge his balefire laser, then she deserved to die. He was standing around glowing like the Beacons of Gondor for a while, she had ample time to escape, which is within her nature since she avoids direct confrontation.

 

That, and Moridins prologue comments, and the apparently cheap way she "died" point to her being alive.

[Natural Born Killer]

Is it possible for Graendal to (not wanting Rand to discover she had used compulsion i.e. not wanting him to know she knew about him knowing about her) tie off and make the compulsion self "evaporate" and disappear by itself after a few minutes?

 

I could se her doing her whole compulsion and questioning, then as an extra precaution (for the above stated reason) makes it fade away. Then she gateways to someplace else as a secondary precaution - not wanting to be to close to the dragon when he's around.

 

When Rand does his attack it just happens to correspond in time with the fading away of the compulsion weave. And Graendal isn't dead - but long gone.

 

 

 

Btw, personally I don't belive in this theory myself, I think she's as dead as it gets, but for arguments sake. Can one do that with such a wave?

[richnewton82]

.

[Balefire to da face!]

How would it undermine the scene if she were alive?  Rand thought he killed her and judging by the ripple, he did kill all her pets.

The way I viewed that whole scene was like this (apologies for the length of this post).

 

Rand is slowly losing himself. His guilt about the people - especially the women - who have died in his name is consuming him. He is determined to be hard and to see his task through to the end and nothing - or no-one - else matters. Something inside him broke when he nearly killed Min and he has completely lost empathy for his fellow human beings.

 

At the start of TGS, for example, he wouldn't even allow Caddy to torture Semi - despite her being one of the most evil creatures to ever have lived - but by the middle of the book those feelings have long gone. He feels he can't beat Graendal in a fair fight, so he's not even going to give her the chance. He balefires her and all her pets and servants out of existence. He feels no guilt or remorse afterwards. Nor does he feel triumphant or satisfied or pleased that a mortal enemy has died. He feels ... nothing. As the story continues, Rand's blackness worsens and his desire for destruction increases.

 

For me, the killing of Graendal is one of those pivotal moments in defining Rand's mood. It emphasized, with shocking clarity, just how cold and inhuman Rand had become. How emotionless and unfeeling he was (and how these black feelings were affecting the world around him). I felt myself disliking the Rand in this book (as I believe the author intended). But I think this is a place Rand had to go, so that he could come out again on the other side - as he does on Dragonmount at the end of the book.

 

I feel that if Graendal should pop up again in the next book blowing a party whistle and shouting "Nah nah nah I'm not dead", it cheapens the whole tone of the previous book. We watched Rand lose his mind in TGS, then find it again at the end. He basically went to hell and back. And part of that journey involved the annihilation of Graendal. And if she hasn't been annihilated, somehow Rand's mental sacrifices will seem less real. I understand that HE believes she's dead, but for me, as a reader, I feel the impact of Rand's descent into blackness and Graendal's "death" scene are lessened if she's still alive.

 

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

Not only does it make sense, that is one of the best summations of a great point that I have seen on this board. I agree 100%.

 

I can understand that Graendal fans would be dissapointed, but I am not. The fights that Rand has had with the Forsaken have varied from very cool, to kind of cookie cutter in hindsight(poor Be'lal....) and considering that they keep getting spun back out by the DO(one having already redied....) it was kind of nice to see a scene like this that didn't put the emphasis on "Rand goes to battle another mighty Forsaken!". It was a brilliant, if absolutely heartless, move by Rand, and the perfect plan to deal with Graendal, but ultimately the scene wasn't even really about her, and that's one reason it's so powerful. Get it? Rand's descent is so important, even to the author, that the death of one of the Forsaken is secondary to it. And yes, at that point, Graendal was probably far less dangerous to the Light then Rand's own inner struggle.

 

Like I said, I can't understand why Graendal fans would be dissapointed, but I thought it was an amazing scene for all the reasons you listed Firebird. It definately would cheapen it to have Graendal show up in the next book. Kind of like...oh, Rand didn't actually channel the True Power. It was the Bestest Power, and it's made of gumdrops and jellybeans, so no worries.

 

 

[lillcheese]

As I mentioned in the Forsaken thread, it's more painful and tragic if Rand did the Uber Bad Thing to get Graendal, only to ultimately fail.

 

We know of one DF (Elza) who was privy to Rand's beliefs about where to find Graendal.  There was enough time for a setup to be put in place.

[OsaroLJ]

I think she's alive, why would Moridin take her aside and say she's better at being the Spider than Moghedien.  Why would he make special note of this if she won't come back to bite.  The one thing said about Moghedien is just when you think she's dead out she pops.  How would it undermine the scene if she were alive?  Rand thought he killed her and judging by the ripple, he did kill all her pets.

 

Perhaps because Moridin doesn't know the future????

 

Graendal is DEAD. The entire conversation between Rand and Ramshallan covered all his bases. He totally set her up and then "punched her in the face." Graendal would have to be the DO herself (or just plain lucky) to have figured out that everything Ramshallan told her about Rand was BS and that Rand expected her to draw his words from Ramshallan.

 

Girl is dead.

[Ashamandragoran]

I think she's alive, why would Moridin take her aside and say she's better at being the Spider than Moghedien.  Why would he make special note of this if she won't come back to bite.  The one thing said about Moghedien is just when you think she's dead out she pops.  How would it undermine the scene if she were alive?  Rand thought he killed her and judging by the ripple, he did kill all her pets.

 

I think its obvious that Moridin doesn't really care about the other forsaken's well being by now. He wanted Graenny to prevent Rand from restoring order to Arad Doman, which is what most of Rand's plotline centered around. That is why he took her aside and made a special note of her.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

Graendal is dead.

Graendal is dead.

Graendal is dead.

 

there, it is so.