The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Aquarius]

Okay... Shamaran, NetSlider, you seem to have hit the two most opposite understanding of this thing. Congratulations !

[dumont76]

I was away for a bit. Here's what I thought with fresh approach to this thing - this big thing pretty much has something to do with Rand (in order to be BIG unnoticed thing). Well, if it started in book 4 than we should think about tSR and what Rand does. The book is pretty big and a lot of things happen to a lot of charters, but Rand basically is in Tear and than the Waist. If in Tear, it most like has something to do with the Finns or angreal stash. I think that it is really weird that when all of the Forsaken are looking for angreal and sa'angreal the one that sits on the whole stash did use one of them against Rand in Tear in tDR (even the same fat man). Instead Moraine killed him. Interestingly enough, we don't find out about the stash until book 4 and I really did not see that being mentioned anywhere. So, why didn't Be'lal use an item from the stash? So the fat man is probably the only thing that's from Tear from tSR that is being repeated books 4-6 and even mentioned later on.

I have wondered about this too.  I literally just finished re-reading tSR last night, and I found myself wondering why Lanfear didn't search more vehemently for the female CK ter'angreal after Asmo & Rand fought...and how did Rand know about the Fat Man?  It never says a thing in tSR about how he knew what it was or how he chose it.  Maybe he asked the finns about male ter', sa' and angreal?  Also, as it is quietly mentioned in 4 through 6, it does meet the criteria due to its mention in 7...

 

[StefanR]

I think it has something to do with Snakes and Foxes, and the fact that Mat won't roll the dice when he plays with Olver because he doesn't want his luck to affect the game.

 

It's been mentioned in the books that the only way to beat it is to cheat. AND nobody seems to have given it a ton of thought that I've seen

[dumont76]

I think it has something to do with Snakes and Foxes, and the fact that Mat won't roll the dice when he plays with Olver because he doesn't want his luck to affect the game.

 

It's been mentioned in the books that the only way to beat it is to cheat. AND nobody seems to have given it a ton of thought that I've seen

 

I'll agree with this theory too.  Mat's luck obviously worked for him in the doorway scenario in Tear, since he got answers to 6 questions...and despite dying and coming back to life after Rhuidean, in a way his luck was there too because he was given all these excellent, pertinent to his role memories (even though it drives him nuts) which is beneficial.  So why not theorize that his luck will affect the game since it affects the reality behind the game?  ToG, watch out for the luck of Mat!

[NetSlider]

Okay... Shamaran, NetSlider, you seem to have hit the two most opposite understanding of this thing. Congratulations !

 

I'm not really sure what you're referring to.

I have wondered about this too.  I literally just finished re-reading tSR last night, and I found myself wondering why Lanfear didn't search more vehemently for the female CK ter'angreal after Asmo & Rand fought...and how did Rand know about the Fat Man?  It never says a thing in tSR about how he knew what it was or how he chose it.  Maybe he asked the finns about male ter', sa' and angreal?  Also, as it is quietly mentioned in 4 through 6, it does meet the criteria due to its mention in 7...

 

 

Rand can sense angreal and sa'angreal (just as any other channeler, i think) and I'm pretty sure it mentions him going down to the stash and simply picking the fat man.

 

 

[Anoxanmore]

I'd also like to point out that Rand new there were ter'angreal, sa'angreal and angreal in Tear, and yes he can sense them when close, although he doesn't know how to tell other than guess work (like Elayne, Nynaeve did in Tanchio and Ebou Dar).

 

Lanfear never knew about the sa'angreal, ter'angreal, angreal in Rhuidean it was built or semi-built after she was imprisoned in the Bore, and with the Aiel being so secretive, minus the Friends of the Dark, she didn't know to look for one, although I am willing to bet that if she were to get close to a sa'angreal, ter'angreal or angreal she could have immediately known what it was. (Which is why she was wearing one at the docks in Cairhien, in tFoH). Moiraine made it easy for Lanfear to find one of the above with the wagon loads of them brought with her from Rhuidean.

[Sharaman]

The Brandon conversation that started this thread (originally quoted by Luckers. My bolding.)

 

1. Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

 

1. Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

 

2. Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

 

2. Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

 

•  I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.

•  Brandon is concerned about the HCFF's digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon. [Luckers Note: This seems to confirm that it will be revealed in ToM]

---

 

So it shows up somewhere in those three books.

Also it's "been going (on)" for a long time.

Sounds more like an event than an object. I'd stick with my old theory of Aiel Darkfriends. 

 

 

[Anoxanmore]

ToM needs to be released NAOW!

 

*sigh*

 

*goes back to re-reading tGS*

 

I miss my other books so I can start from the beginning.

[Netizen]

Could it be the hidden watchers in Tel'Aran'Rhiod?

 

We all assume it's the Forsaken skulking around, spying on each other and our heroes, but could it be something else too?

 

TAR is outside the world, and touches on all worlds. Does that mean it's outside the Pattern? If it's outside the Pattern, it could be the place where Rand has to confront the DO. Verin (I think) said that if the Do broke free in one world, he would be free in all worlds, so where better to break out than a place which touches all worlds?

 

I think that we are going to have a great big "I see!" moment, and it will have something to do with TAR.

 

There's also that part where Rahvin started to unmake Rand in TAR and Rand had to re-make himself, and he re-made himself harder than before. If you're there in the flesh and you change yourself, do those changes last into the real world?

 

TAR is where it's at, IMHO.

[Shazzai]

 

There's also that part where Rahvin started to unmake Rand in TAR and Rand had to re-make himself, and he re-made himself harder than before. If you're there in the flesh and you change yourself, do those changes last into the real world?

 

TAR is where it's at, IMHO.

 

Nope, those changes do not stick around.  Egwene healed the welts from her strapping before setting out for Salidar in T'A'R, and it returned as soon as she left T'A'R.

[NetSlider]

 

There's also that part where Rahvin started to unmake Rand in TAR and Rand had to re-make himself, and he re-made himself harder than before. If you're there in the flesh and you change yourself, do those changes last into the real world?

 

TAR is where it's at, IMHO.

 

Nope, those changes do not stick around.  Egwene healed the welts from her strapping before setting out for Salidar in T'A'R, and it returned as soon as she left T'A'R.

I thought about it before, I think that we might still see more about "undoing" things from TAR.

[Batsoww]

Could it be the hidden watchers in Tel'Aran'Rhiod?

 

We all assume it's the Forsaken skulking around, spying on each other and our heroes, but could it be something else too?

 

TAR is outside the world, and touches on all worlds. Does that mean it's outside the Pattern? If it's outside the Pattern, it could be the place where Rand has to confront the DO. Verin (I think) said that if the Do broke free in one world, he would be free in all worlds, so where better to break out than a place which touches all worlds?

 

I think that we are going to have a great big "I see!" moment, and it will have something to do with TAR.

 

There's also that part where Rahvin started to unmake Rand in TAR and Rand had to re-make himself, and he re-made himself harder than before. If you're there in the flesh and you change yourself, do those changes last into the real world?

 

TAR is where it's at, IMHO.

 

This goes along with my theory that the unnoticed thing has to do with entering TAR in the flesh.  The Wise Ones only mention that this is dangerous in books 4-6, then its never really mentioned again.  I think there is a connection between Rand entering TAR in the flesh and the influence of Lews Therin in his head. 

 

Rand entered TAR for the first time at the end of book 3 chasing Ba'alzamon/Ishamael.  Then the first mention of a voice in his head occurs after this in the beginning of book 4.  Then the first mention of entering TAR in the flesh appears in book 4 with Egwene and the Wise Ones.  Rand enters TAR again and Rahvin attempts to remake Rand into Lews Therin.  Rand resists but who is to say that there aren't more lasting impressions.  Rand is also seen in the flesh in TAR while spying on Egwene and company in the Stone where he learns the location of Elayne.  We know that legends tend to hang out in the TAR while not reborn.  Perhaps TAR held some piece of Lews Therin that was able to reconnect with Rand when he entered in the flesh and become the voice in his head.  The last time the danger of entering TAR is mentioned is right before or perhaps after Egwene enters TAR while going to Salidar in book 6. 

 

These mentionings by the Wise Ones and Egwene are very small occurrences, but I think they could add up to a big reveal about the nature of Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head.

[DemandredFO]

But Brandon says it goes on after it appears in 4-6 but entering in the flesh is never mentioned after that but I think the hidden watchers in TAR are mentioned several times after 4-6.

[dumont76]

although I am willing to bet that if she were to get close to a sa'angreal, ter'angreal or angreal she could have immediately known what it was. (Which is why she was wearing one at the docks in Cairhien, in tFoH). Moiraine made it easy for Lanfear to find one of the above with the wagon loads of them brought with her from Rhuidean.

 

That's what I was getting at, though I'm not sure of my intent... :-\  She was right there after Rand and Asmodean fought and knew what the male statue he had was...and was completely surrounded by many types of angreal and only cast about a cursory glance, seemingly for the female ter'. 

 

Anyway, I think I've been trying to catch some kind of idea that might show a symptom of the Forsaken's deaths at the hands of Rand.  It's kind of weird, but it just seems like they weren't supposed to play a role in the prophecies and with their talk of Rand not having the Hundred Companioins with him for the LB...I'm rambling.  I just wanted to respond and say also that I have been strongly swayed by a comment earlier about the ToM answering this mystery.  Who knows, maybe it will have something to do with the Tower of Morning mentioned in the Panarch's Palace in tSR, when Elayne and Eaganin save Amathera from Temaile's clutches... ???

[Netizen]

 

There's also that part where Rahvin started to unmake Rand in TAR and Rand had to re-make himself, and he re-made himself harder than before. If you're there in the flesh and you change yourself, do those changes last into the real world?

 

TAR is where it's at, IMHO.

 

Nope, those changes do not stick around.  Egwene healed the welts from her strapping before setting out for Salidar in T'A'R, and it returned as soon as she left T'A'R.

 

Good point - but if you're injured in TAR you're injured when you wake. And if you're killed there, you're dead.

 

What Egwene did was dream-heal real injuries, so of course the dream-healing didn't last when she left the dream world. She knew she couldn't heal herself in TAR for the same reason AS can't heal themselves in the real world, therefore she did what she knew she could - fix her image. Rand had to manipulate his real self - it was either that or face oblivion. He had no choice.

 

 

If we're going to be slapping our heads when we find out what the BUT is, it seems to me that the BUT should be something fundamental to the fabric of reality of the WOT universe, because we see this world from so many perspectives that the BUT should be relevant to several of them at least. IMO, that rules out objects like the fat man or the Rhuidean chairs because they will only influence one or two characters. Their reveal would have to be something amazing and at the same time credible. Maybe it's my lack, but I can't imagine what could be revealed about items like these that would make me react the way BS seems to have.

 

 

Now that I think about it, TAR must be outside the Pattern because it's where the Heroes souls wait before they are spun back into the Pattern. I reckon Rand will thrash it out with the DO in TAR. But what are these watchers, if they're not just the Forsaken?

[mossman87]

I think it has something to do with Snakes and Foxes, and the fact that Mat won't roll the dice when he plays with Olver because he doesn't want his luck to affect the game.

 

It's been mentioned in the books that the only way to beat it is to cheat. AND nobody seems to have given it a ton of thought that I've seen

 

It's been given a monumental amount of thought, and we know Mat will be there next book, there's really nothing small or hidden about it, sure we don't know the exact details, but that's the case with everything in the books, it'd be a boring series if we knew everything.

[Sharaman]

Now that I think about it, TAR must be outside the Pattern because it's where the Heroes souls wait before they are spun back into the Pattern. I reckon Rand will thrash it out with the DO in TAR. But what are these watchers, if they're not just the Forsaken?

 

 

Shayol Ghul and the Blight cannot be reached in TAR.

Dunwoody, Georgia Post-ACOS Signing--9 October, 1996; report by Erica Sadun

report by Erica Sadun

 

29 October Signing at Perimeter Media Play, Dunwoody, GA.

Q: Tell us about the blight:

A: Blight: you can not enter it from TAR because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight and Shayol Ghul are not part of the normal universe. 

 

[Crael123]

maybe it is the trolloc saving rands life in the Stone in SR

[Lord of the Morning]

maybe it is the trolloc saving rands life in the Stone in SR

lol raywilliamjohnson is hilarious!

[dumont76]

maybe it is the trolloc saving rands life in the Stone in SR

 

I thought that was Lanfear's doing.

[Batsoww]

But Brandon says it goes on after it appears in 4-6 but entering in the flesh is never mentioned after that but I think the hidden watchers in TAR are mentioned several times after 4-6.

 

Exactly!  Entering in the flesh is only mentioned in books 4-6 but the EFFECTS of doing so could be lasting much longer.  Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head, his hardness to the world... all of this could be the dangerous effects of entering in the flesh back in books 4-6 but we as readers glanced over the fact that maybe entering TAR in the flesh had a much more significant effect on Rand. 

 

The reason this goes unnoticed is because the Wise Ones maybe mention it 3 or 4 times in books 4-6 and Rand's progression could just as easily be explained by the simple madness of Saidin before the cleansing, but if you look at the timing of Lews Therin's entry into Rand's head and the voice's subsequent gaining in strength, it could be that the more frequent TAR visits are what caused the voice to begin with.

 

Basically, I'm saying this fits Brandon's criteria because the dangers of entering in the flesh were barely mentioned in books 4-6 but the effects have lasted much longer.  Also I find it much more intriguing if the unnoticed thing is less an object or physical thing and more an idea or effect that goes unnoticed.  It seems a less obvious thing would be what Jordan would use than a physical object.

 

About as obvious as Asmodean's killer pre-LoC  ;D

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

lanfear didnt send them, she just gave rand the impression she did. it was another of the chosedn, ordered to do it. i just cant remember who. i think its said in TGS, but could be wrong.

[Sharaman]

Semirhage sent them to fight the trollocs that Sammael had sent.

It's in LoC, herself's PoV, I think.

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

HsPerrin been around Rand much since this happened? Entering in the flesh that is. If so, wouldn't Rand smell funny to Perrin since did not Lord Luc/Isam/Slayer smell unusual. I always took this smell to be an effect of entering in the flesh.

[Crael123]

maybe it is who is asmo's killer! there has been NO discussion on that one