The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Vulgir]

You say Luca is the best candidate, and the only reason you gave was that they shared a name.

 

There is more in common than only a name, if one looks at their situations, backgrounds, behaviors, judgments, motivations and manner of dress of common Da'Shain Aiel of the Ages of Legends to Break periods and the direct quotes of the first Luca in Rand's Aiel visions (tSR book).  

 

1.Luca, with his shoulders half again as wide as anyone else’s; he liked to play tricks.

2.“We…killed the.” Luca’s voice shook. “We….Mercy of the Light, be with us now.”

3.When Alijha started to pick up one of the swords, though, Lewin stopped him. “No, Alijha. That is a weapon, made to kill people. It has no other use.” Alijha said nothing, only ran his eyes over the four dead bodies, looked at the spears Luca was winding with blankets to carry Charlin’s body on. Lewin refused to look at the villagers. “A spear can put food in the pots, Alijha. A sword cannot. It is forbidden by the Way.”

 

Yes, it's enough hints, when combined with how RJ's uses Luca instead of Valan or Valan Luca in later parts of the texts, to make an educated guess that Luca is Valan Luca reborn.

 

There is also the interplay between Birgitte and Valan Luca which I found quite funny, during their very first meeting together.  Birgitte insults Valan Luca by dropping his gold mark wager to a 'silver penny' and asks if he is 'afraid'?  The point being Birgitte knew Valan Luca would take up her archery challenge, because he's an ex-Tinker. Tinkers, Ex-Tinkers, Aiel, and Sea Folk peoples all general have a good to great deal of courage.  So much courage, they'll walk into places no normally sane person would, because its the honorable thing to do.  

 

 If you doubt that Da'Shain Aiel have great courage:

 

“Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?” He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. “Of course you do. You Da’shain have more courage than…. Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singling, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines, and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him. And the Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood.”

“Many people had time to flee, Aes Sedai. The Da’shain earned them time to flee. We are not afraid.”

 

 The Luca of Rand's Aiel vision in Rhuidean, claims to be Da'Shain Aiel yet is outcast for "save" is friends and family, because of the violence and killing incurred in the process of saving them.    

 

 The Valan Luca of the current Age, as already attempted to "save" a missing female from within a warring city, among many acts of bravery he's already shown in the story thus far.

 

 

I would suggest re-reading:

tSR book, Chapter “Rhuidean” AND

 

tFoH book, Chapters “A Small Room in Sienda”, “Heading West”, “A New Name”, "Performances in Samara", “The Wheel Weaves”, “The Price of a Ship” AND

 

Winter's Heart book, Chapter "In Need of a Bellfounder" AND

CoT book, Chapter "Two Captains" AND

KoD book, Chapter "A Cold Medallion", "Dragons' Eggs", "A Village in Shiota".  

 

To see how it's possible that Valan Luca's role in the story has been relatively unnoticed over the years in the forums.    

 

 

Looking back, I chuckled hard at one of Birgitte observations about Valan Luca, "She had said would make her own bow, too, as soon as she could. Luca’s she called “a knot-riddled branch broken from a cross-grained tree by a blind idiot in the middle of the night." (tFoH, Chapter "Performances in Samara")

 

 

 There are a few basic reasons why Noal is a poor candidate to being the 3rd man to go along with Thom and Mat to the Tower of Ghenjei in an attempt to "save" Moiraine in ToM or AMOL books.  First, it's known that Ishamael used Compulsion on Noal. Second, Noal suggesting going to look for the Tower of Ghenjei along the Shadow Coast, where unblocked Waygates likely have let large numbers of Trollocs to organize. Plus, how else did Trollocs get close enough to Ebou Dar to attack Tylee's group of Seanchan in tGS?  Third, why did Noal really decide to help protect Mat from that gholam in Ebou Dar, sent by Sammael?

 

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The other major quote I've been wondering about for years, is Mat's first question to the Aelfinn in tSR book:

 

His first question—and the other two' date=' for that matter—he had worked out before going down to the Great Hold. “Should I go home to help my people?” he asked finally.

 

And the Aelfinn tell him to go to Rhuidean.  However, Rhuidean is the home of the now dead Jenn Aiel.  

 

So are Mat's People the Jenn Aiel, err Da'Shain Aiel descendants? That would include the Tinkers, Amayar, Sea Folk, Aiel Clans and any Aiel descendants enslaved within Shara in theory. :o

 

Not to mention the impact of his marriage to Fortuona (Tuon) now; are people the Seanchan Empire his People now too?

 

I do understand this maybe too far out there, but it's never been cleared up by anyone I know of, nor by the most recent book tGS. Who are included within Mat's People?

 

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BS is making us all go crazy.

 

Maybe so, indeed.  

 

Brandon RAFO'd, MAFO'd questions quite a bit in Pasadena at Vromens during the time I listened to him sign people's books for over an hour and half, ten feet away in the first row.

 

'Squirm', must be a favorite word  ;)

   

 

 

Matt is of Mantheren Blood, in EOTW before anything happens to him he shouts with perrin something like For the Red Eagle in the old tounge, this disproves that matt is aiel, which is just preposterous in the first place. AS for Valan Luca, being Luca the Aiel reborn? Too many holes and reaching for too much i think, plus Luca doesnt show up until book 5 and the "Thing" is first seen in book 4. Also Valan Luca, a greedy, performing man whos starved for attention, and can be quite spiteful at times is an Aeil Hero reborn? NO, just no.

[NetSlider]

 

 

Once again, Lan's cousin (the Hunter) might have something to do with it. Plus, wouldn't make sense if he is also with the borderlanders.

 

Lands cuzin The hunter is ISAM, in TAR the hunter is Slayer, they are the same person, i dont know what you are talking about other wise can u be clearer?

 

Ok, I'm still thinking on this thing but maybe thing big missed thing has something to do with the Slayer. He is not only Lan's cousin but he is also related to Rand. He has is TWO MAN IN ONE. I dont really know where this is going yet (still thinking about it instead of doing my work:) but at this point i'm just trying to hit everything that was not mentioned yet. :-D

[Dunderdan]

PLEASE dont quote a wall of text! narrow it down to the part youre actually referring to or else just refer to the poster. No one is helped by seeing a wall of text twice.

 

On topic: Im convinced Reson8 is correct. Its the prospering Rhuidean and a growing Chora tree. Case is closed imo.  :)

 

[Vulgir]

 

 

Ok, I'm still thinking on this thing but maybe thing big missed thing has something to do with the Slayer. He is not only Lan's cousin but he is also related to Rand. He has is TWO MAN IN ONE. I dont really know where this is going yet (still thinking about it instead of doing my work:) but at this point i'm just trying to hit everything that was not mentioned yet. :-D

 

 

I literally i have no idea what your talking about or building on other than stating the obvious that Luc is Isam.

[NetSlider]

You know, looking back at what I've posted I'm not sure my self  :) Sorry. All i know is that we have 11 MORE MONTHS TO WAIT and I dont think I can go through this whole speculation for that long without loosing my mind!

[smileyman]

I like the Valan Luca theory. That man sure gets around.

 

He was in Ilian when the Hunters for the Horn swore their oaths.

He was in Samara when the Prophet started a riot.

He was in Ebou Dar

His wagon train has carried Nynaeve, Mat, Thom, Juilin, Tuon, Birgitte, Eaganin, Bayle Domon and assorted Aes Sedai.

 

In reference to the Da'Shain Aiel. Luca is described as wearing gaudy (i.e. colorful clothes), which is a favorite of the Tinker folk. His wagons are also brightly painted, another connection with the Tinkers (who are the remnants of the Da'Shain Aiel).

 

Only problem with this theory is the timeline--Luca doesn't show up until FoH.

[Vulgir]

Damn, Valan luca doenst show up until book 5, but Luca the Aeil is in book 4, making this fit the comment, but it just doesnt make any sense, is Valan Luca gonna show up and put on a show? Perhaps flourish his cape a bit? Hes just a weave in the patteren like Bayle Domon, randomly around when needed.

[Auld Manriva]

Vulgir... Take a chill pill dude. Nothing Dida proposed is any more "preposterous" than 90% of the other things posted here. Dismount your high horse, and read your timelines.

 

Manetheren became a country LONG AFTER the breaking. It's quite conceivable it was populated by remnants of Da' Shain, meaning Mat and the rest of the Two Rivers folk could have Aiel in their gene pool as do many other folk.

 

I'm not convinced of Valen Luca being ancient Luca myself but I'm not discounting it either. It's as reasonable a theory as any I've seen. Noal as the third man has always seemed a bit off to me because of the compulsion thing. His obvious suitability being a sleight of hand Gleeman's misdirection by RJ.

 

That VL never showed up till book 5 is a non-issue. The "Dingus" (old word, deal with it) we're told happened SOMEWHERE in the story, encompassed in Books 4-6. BS didn't know which supposedly. Meaning of course it could have happened in ANY of those three, just in case I'm being obtuse.

 

 

[Vulgir]

You're correct i seem to have jumped all over this statement, i apologize.

 

I simply cannot see Valan this path going anywhere substantial in the context of the Big Importance.

 

A note on the time line. Mantheren is older than Carrieran, if you look into the Part when Rand relives his old life you will see the Aeil havnt left the way of the leaf until the time Cariehn is being made by ogier and that is a generation before Luca. It seems not possible that Matt has Aeil blood, since Mantherin was from before the Aeil Devide.

 

IE Mantheron is stated as AB and Al'cair'rahienallen was made NE.

[The Lost One]

I am so bad at remembering what happened in what book, can someone remember?  When did the prediction that Perin would need to rescue Rand not once but twice? 

[Vulgir]

That occures in book 6 LOC

[Gorlith]

Mat's hat may or may not be important by itself, but it's definitely a clue to his identity. Mat is an Odin archetype (complete with spear, soon to be missing eye, hanging from a tree in the quest of knowledge, ravens, etc., etc., etc.). Odin is almost always portrayed with a wide-brimmed hat as he travels to and fro.

 

Odin is also known as a Gambler, Father of Victory, War Father, Wanderer : )

[Mr Ares]

Seems to me there are too many things in books 4-6 and BS just said that to make us go crazy.

Hopefully he will actually confirm what the thing was after ToM is released.

[Auld Manriva]

You're correct i seem to have jumped all over this statement, i apologize.

 

I simply cannot see Valan this path going anywhere substantial in the context of the Big Importance.

 

A note on the time line. Mantheren is older than Carrieran, if you look into the Part when Rand relives his old life you will see the Aeil havnt left the way of the leaf until the time Cariehn is being made by ogier and that is a generation before Luca. It seems not possible that Matt has Aeil blood, since Mantherin was from before the Aeil Devide.

 

IE Mantheron is stated as AB and Al'cair'rahienallen was made NE.

 

Umm.. not exactly, if I read you correctly.

 

Manetheren (country & capital city) and Al'cair'rehienallen (capital of Almoren which became Cairhien) existed at precisely the same time. Both countries being signatories to the Compact of Ten Nations.

 

The Da'Shain had split into many groups LONG before either country came into existence. The Compact being made some 200 years after The Breaking. The Da'Shain Aiel had split (departed) Paaran Disen long before that even, on the eve of the Hall of Servants being overrun and destroyed.

 

The group which included Luca (IIRC) had been given water by villagers in a "region", not then a country, that eventually became Almoren and then Cairhien, just before they entered The Waste.

 

** Also.. I think from reading Brandon's statement again. What we're beating our heads against a wall about is not something major to do with the resolution of the story, so much as a great big "A HA!" moment. This being akin to "Who killed...". Again, something interesting but not important to the overall story in the least.

[Zidel333]

Could someone, please, carefully and explain the whole "Mat And His Hat" theory? In very simple terms? I'm confused. Thanks.

[Aleron688]

Could someone, please, carefully and explain the whole "Mat And His Hat" theory? In very simple terms? I'm confused. Thanks.

 

it's a rediculous theory. don't worry about it.  a hat is a hat is a hat, no matter what you put it on

[Vulgir]

You're correct i seem to have jumped all over this statement, i apologize.

 

I simply cannot see Valan this path going anywhere substantial in the context of the Big Importance.

 

A note on the time line. Mantheren is older than Carrieran, if you look into the Part when Rand relives his old life you will see the Aeil havnt left the way of the leaf until the time Cariehn is being made by ogier and that is a generation before Luca. It seems not possible that Matt has Aeil blood, since Mantherin was from before the Aeil Devide.

 

IE Mantheron is stated as AB and Al'cair'rahienallen was made NE.

 

Umm.. not exactly, if I read you correctly.

 

Manetheren (country & capital city) and Al'cair'rehienallen (capital of Almoren which became Cairhien) existed at precisely the same time. Both countries being signatories to the Compact of Ten Nations.

 

The Da'Shain had split into many groups LONG before either country came into existence. The Compact being made some 200 years after The Breaking. The Da'Shain Aiel had split (departed) Paaran Disen long before that even, on the eve of the Hall of Servants being overrun and destroyed.

 

The group which included Luca (IIRC) had been given water by villagers in a "region", not then a country, that eventually became Almoren and then Cairhien, just before they entered The Waste.

 

** Also.. I think from reading Brandon's statement again. What we're beating our heads against a wall about is not something major to do with the resolution of the story, so much as a great big "A HA!" moment. This being akin to "Who killed...". Again, something interesting but not important to the overall story in the least.

 

 

I think were gettin skewed a bit.  Smileyman posted that Matt could be an Aeil desendent. I said that it has been clearly stated that Matt is a Mantheran blood. IF the Jenn Aeil are in the waste while MAntheren and the compact of the ten nations are being put into play, it seems impossible that Aeil could have founded Mantheren or been a part of it.

[GrandpaG]

Without reading all 19 pages, did anybody already guess:

 

 

Aiel darkfriends.

[smileyman]

I think were gettin skewed a bit.  Smileyman posted that Matt could be an Aeil desendent. I said that it has been clearly stated that Matt is a Mantheran blood. IF the Jenn Aeil are in the waste while MAntheren and the compact of the ten nations are being put into play, it seems impossible that Aeil could have founded Mantheren or been a part of it.

 

No I didn't. Mat is clearly an Odin archetype. The theory is that Valan Luca is an Aiel reborn, not Mat.

[Random Man]

Without reading all 19 pages, did anybody already guess:

 

 

Aiel darkfriends.

 

We already know that Aiel darkfriends exist. Melindhra was one. If you can find any evidence that a particular Aiel may be a darkfriend, now we might be getting somewhere.

[MatrixM]

I think were gettin skewed a bit.  Smileyman posted that Matt could be an Aeil desendent. I said that it has been clearly stated that Matt is a Mantheran blood. IF the Jenn Aeil are in the waste while MAntheren and the compact of the ten nations are being put into play, it seems impossible that Aeil could have founded Mantheren or been a part of it.

 

No I didn't. Mat is clearly an Odin archetype. The theory is that Valan Luca is an Aiel reborn, not Mat.

Someone speculated a couple of pages back that the two rivers people were aiel or something.

[Auld Manriva]

Not gonna post a buncha' quotes:

 

Dida, on page 17, posed a question that arose from Mat's first question to the Finns "Should I return" etc..

The Finn's answered.. "Go to Ruidean".. Which leads to the question why? Does he have "people" there? Could both groups have predecessors among the Dai'Shain Aiel...

 

I said merely that it's possible.. and it is. It IS possible, that the Jenn AND other groups, no longer considered "Aiel", who conceivably could have settled anywhere, could spring from the same genetic pool.

 

 

**As to the Dr. Seuss Theory: The Mat In The Hat. Some are thinking Lanfear put some kinda JuJu on Mat's Hat between the time she snatched it off Kadere's fat head and sold it to Mat and that it's now some kind of device he and his backup-band require for critical acclaim and a successful performance in his upcoming engagement at the Tower of Ghenji. "Advance tickets on sale at all Ticketmaster outlets" or online at www,LordMatandtheZorroHats.com

 

 

[Vulgir]

Yes smiley man i apologize i had the wrong person.

 

Dida said that Matt asked should i go home to help my people, this is reffereing to the fact that Perrin went back to the two rivers to help against the whitecloaks and trollocs. Two rivers is MAntheran, thus by asking "should i help my people and go home" and the Finns answer "NO" it clears any thought that Matt is not going home to Mantherin the place of his decendents, he is going to the Aiel waste were he will be in contact with people the Aeil who he has no bloodline with, the quote disprooves the theory in itself. Matt has no Aeil descendents.

 

ITs a mute point move on, and lets stick to the thread.

[somathus]

Without reading all 19 pages, did anybody already guess:

 

 

Aiel darkfriends.

 

We already know that Aiel darkfriends exist. Melindhra was one. If you can find any evidence that a particular Aiel may be a darkfriend, now we might be getting somewhere.

That is the whole point.  With the thousands and thousands of Aiel, we have only seen one DF.  Where are the rest?  I bet at least one of the main Wise Ones is.

[Sentinel78]

We've only seen on Borderland Darkfriend too, Ingtar.  Well two I guess if you count Luc.  Some cultures are just going to be less inclined to go Shadow.