The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[nophone]

I'm doing a re-read and just about to start TSR.  Taking a break for "Nights of Villjamur", which, by the way, is an amazing fantasy debut.

 

In anycase, it'd be nice to have a list of the BUT to look for without wading through the whole thread here. Anyone?  Anyone?

 

 

somebody really awesome could put together a new post called "some of the things considdered for the list of TB©UT contenders that have made an impression in this thread? Not it...

[lillcheese]

Not it.

 

My sister just started WoT a little before xmas.  She's in tGH now.  I've been wondering if I should ask her to keep an eye out for tiny details that stand out to her as she reads through 4 - 6.  Maybe fresh eyes will be able to find what we've all missed?

[nophone]

Not it.

 

My sister just started WoT a little before xmas.  She's in tGH now.  I've been wondering if I should ask her to keep an eye out for tiny details that stand out to her as she reads through 4 - 6.  Maybe fresh eyes will be able to find what we've all missed?

 

obviously duh.

[Azhamle]

Could it be the little remark by Lanfear that Collandhor  is the third strongest sa'angreal usable by men? The male Choedan kahl is strongest i assume, but has it been discussed what the middle one could be?

[Vexorian]

I've wondered what happend to the Ring of Tamrylin. At first I thought it might have been obliterated w/ LTT when he died. But, in reading the TEotW prologue again, when he channels to kill himself he is unaided. Which would perhaps suggest he didn't have the ring with him. Because if he did he probably would have used that to assist him dying, which he didn't. So I wonder if maybe it is still out there somewhere. Which makes me ask, Is it an Item of the One power? Is it with one of the Items of the One Power caches? Is it the 2nd most powerful Sa'Angreal? Does it still carry any significance?  Just a few thoughts.

[GrandpaG]

Brandon comments that there is something that begins in books 4-6 that went completely unnoticed by fans as far as he can tell, which is a big deal--bigger than the death of Asmodean. Though it first appeared in books 4-6 it has been mentioned in later books. Or rather it has 'continued' in later books. Here are his words on it.

 

1. Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

 

1. Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

 

2. Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

 

2. Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

 

•   I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.

•   Brandon is concerned about the HCFF's digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon. [Luckers Note: This seems to confirm that it will be revealed in ToM]

So. This rules out it being the fat man angreal. In fact it kinda puts the crimp on this being an object of any time. 'It's been going for a long time' seems to imply that this overlooked thing is an event, or an effect.

 

My first thought was the Dark One's influence, perhaps especially in the way it continues without any problems from the wardings, but thats too big, and is discussed often--I don't see how Brandon could miss it.

 

Could it be the Wise One's decision to fight in LoC?

 

Note: It is not Rand's saidin sickness. That began in tPoD. (This was suggested before, so best to get it out of the way).

 

Discuss!

 

 

 

 

What if there are other darkfriends among the Aiel besides the girl that Mat killed?

 

Maybe, even among his "trusted advisers"?

 

This fits the description in the original post and has not been a major discussion point that I remember.

 

It could have catastrophic affects at the Last Battle.

 

I know...I've posted this before...but people keep on posting...more and more pages...too many to read!!!  :o

 

When will I know if I guessed correctly?  ::)

[Firebird]

What if there are other darkfriends among the Aiel besides the girl that Mat killed?

 

Maybe, even among his "trusted advisers"?

 

This fits the description in the original post and has not been a major discussion point that I remember.

 

It could have catastrophic affects at the Last Battle.

 

I know...I've posted this before...but people keep on posting...more and more pages...too many to read!!!  :o

 

When will I know if I guessed correctly?   ::)

 

I agree. I think Aiel dark friends is the answer. Everyone's going nuts over every triviality but Aiel dark friends could be huge. Do a search in the forums for "Aiel dark friends" and prior to Brandon's comments, there has been practically no discussions. Given that there are dark friends in every culture, it seems highly unlikely that there is only ONE Aiel Dark Friend (the one who was cosy with Mat).

 

I think they'll try to betray Rand in some way in the next book and there'll be an almighty battle amongst the Aiel themselves which could leave Rand vulnerable to other attacks.

 

Hey, here's another loony theory. Maybe Demandred is living up with the dark Aiel and training them for battle!

[Spilt-pea Soup]

Assuming that the BUT will be revealed in ToM, I've made a short list of *some* of the ideas floated here, grouped under probable events/subjects to come up in ToM.

Tower of Ghenjei/Mat/Moraine/Thom:

• What is Slayer's Relationship to Tower/Aelfinn/Etc?
  
• What preparations did Moraine make (besides the letter to Thom) after her "trip" in Rhuidean?
  
• Are there any clues as to what price/gift was given/received, that haven't been discerned?
  
• Something to do with Mat's hat?
  
• How does Mat's Medallion function against One Power and True Power?  Does it have any side effects?
  

 

Aiel and Aviendha's Trip to Rhuidean + Seanchan

• Are there (more) Aiel Darkfriends we're missing?
  
• Is there something about Aiel/Tinkers/Song/Nym that was overlooked?
  
• What was the significance of Aviendha + Rand's trip to Seanchan in "The Far Snows"?
  
• Something more about Aiel's relationship to Aes Sedai?
  
• What about the chairs in Rhuidean? Are they ter'angreal, and possibly related to the Crystal Throne?  Are they binding chairs and does Rand have one?
  

Rand and Saidin + Tarmon Gaidan

• How does Rand's sanity relate to the health of the land?
  
• Also, how does this relate to the Fisher King?
  
• How is Callandor to be used?  True Power or One power? How was it made? Can it raise dead? Can it give the Dallas Cowboys a Super Bowl victory?
  
• What happened to the fat man angreal?
  
• What is going on at Black Tower w/Taim and Logain?  Any clues overlooked about Taim?
  
• Any overlooked clues regarding Demandred's whereabouts?
  
• Fain?
  
• What's happening in Shara?  Is Shara going to be important to TG?
• Can the True Power destory Cuendillar?
  

 

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch so feel free to "quote" if you have any great revisions/updates.  I tried to make the points raised as broad as possible to avoid red herrings.  So, hopefully, a useful list of some ideas raised to be on the lookout if doing a re-read.  

[shinerfan]

Nice job, Soup. But with the Choedan Kal destroyed there's little chance that the Cowboy's are going to Miami.

WHO DAT!!

[nategator]

Just something i thought in passing, i think Callandor may be used by Nynaeve and Logain +1 to bring Rand back to life......the 3 day references and the use by Rand before of trying to bring that girl back to life.

 

I like this one as well.  I remember during Rands conversations with LTT referencing that this was his first failure or something to that extent.

 

Maybe it's not the DO's inherent power that allows him to bring people back to life, but the fact that the pattern is thinner there.  The reason why the DO gets the credit is he is the only one occupying the area.

 

We also know that dead people can be brought back to life sans DO, as the horn does it for a select few. That might be because they are chillin in the dream subworld instead of truly 100% dead, but it is an exception...

[Dreamwalker]

As soon as I read Brandon's quote about the BUT, this is what first popped into my head as something that no one's talked about, fits the time frame, and is mentioned all the time in the books:

 

Mat's hat. Yeah, sure, it could just be a cool hat. But he did happen to buy it off of a known Darkfriend that was hanging around with a couple Forsaken. It shows up in book 4, and Mat wears it pretty much constantly ever since (right under our noses if this turns out to actually be the big unnoticed thing).

 

I know it's pretty off-the-wall, but if no one's discussed this BUT it's got to be fairly out there because all the obvious stuff has been discussed to death.

[wipe]

Nice job, Soup. But with the Choedan Kal destroyed there's little chance that the Cowboy's are going to Miami.

WHO DAT!!

 

Oh yeah; that would be sweet. Beating the Cowboys to a pulp in the conferance final :-))) Sweet

[ed2funy]

As soon as I read Brandon's quote about the BUT, this is what first popped into my head as something that no one's talked about, fits the time frame, and is mentioned all the time in the books:

 

Mat's hat. Yeah, sure, it could just be a cool hat. But he did happen to buy it off of a known Darkfriend that was hanging around with a couple Forsaken. It shows up in book 4, and Mat wears it pretty much constantly ever since (right under our noses if this turns out to actually be the big unnoticed thing).

 

I know it's pretty off-the-wall, but if no one's discussed this BUT it's got to be fairly out there because all the obvious stuff has been discussed to death.

 

I think a few people tried this ploy tactic theory. :P

And what do you think the hat does? Why is it so special?

[Sharaman]

The hat is an angreal!

If Cyndane gets it back, she'll have Lanfear+ enhanced channeling strength.

Nobody has figured this out since Mat's medallion continuously breaks up the flows from the ang'real.

Also Cyndane will look hilarious wearing Mat's hat and folks duelling with her will be madly distracted by it, giving her an added edge.

 

 

[Luckers]

To preface my post, here again is the list that of things spoken about in the Theorylander thread that Brandon's assitant reviewed and ruled out.

 

--Things we can probably rule out based on the Theorylander discussion.

 

Certain parts of these comments were inaccurate, therefore depending on Peter’s thoughts on the importance of technicalities may still be viable.

 

•  Elayne and Nynaeve’s use of Need in TAR which led to the *angreal storeroom [note: The theorylanders only discussed this in terms of E&N using Need to find a ter’angreal which fixes the weather, which is not accurate. They were using Need to find something to help Rand, and to convince the the Salidar Aes Sedai to stand with him (which led to the Bowl of the Winds and their claims that it required a man to work).]

•  Farstrider in Graendal’s lair [note: In my opinion the old man is more likely Alsalam, but irrespective as with above the Graendal’s ‘old man’ may still be viable, provided he isn’t in fact Farstrider]

 

--Things we can fully rule out based on the Theorylander discussion.

 

( * ) means more than one mention in the thread.

( ** ) means detailed conversation occurred on this subject in the thread.

 

•  **A.R. (anything related) to Birgitte, her expulsion from TAR, or Moghedian controlling her.

•  A.R. to Slayer in the Two Rivers, or him entering ToG.

•  *A.R. to the ter’angreal stash in Rhuidean, or those taken by Moiraine.

•  A.R. to Egeanin’s appearance in the story.

•  A.R. to Fel’s note, philosophy, or instructions to Rand.

•  **A.R. to Shara, or reports of war there.

•  **A.R. to the Tinker wagons Mat finds destroyed in LoC.

•  A.R. to either of Moiraine’s notes.

•  *A.R. to any actions of the Gholam.

•  **A.R. to the Tower of Ghenjei, the doorway ter’angreal, the Finn’s, or prophecies or knowledge relating to either.

•  A.R. to the sisters Siuan sent to recapture Taim.

•  A.R. to the question of who killed Sahra Covenry.

•  **A.R. to Graendal’s meeting with Inturalde, or what she may have done to him.

•  A.R. to the Pit of Doom being in a different world.

•  *A.R. to Rand becoming Moridin.

•  **A.R. to Rand being one with the land, or the changing influence of his ta’verenism, or the effects his corrupted wounds might have through his ta’verenism.

•  A.R. to Asmodean.

•  A.R. to Taim gaining his freedom, or dealing with Bashere.

•  **A.R. to the Aiel Memory Collumns, the seed singing, or the Song, including Ogier, Tinker and Aiel implications.

•  A.R. to Moiraine’s knowledge of the future.

•  A.R. to Fain in books 4-6.

•  **A.R. to the Ashendarei, or the reasons the Finns gave it to Mat.

•  A.R. to Avendesora, including the correlation between Rand’s feelings under Avendesora, and his feelings in Veins of gold.

•  A.R. to Min’s viewing in tSR, including that of the apple cheeked accepted [Theodrin???] behind bars.

 

Also, in this, I'm speaking only of things ruled out as suspects to be the BUT.

 

What is Slayer's Relationship to Tower/Aelfinn/Etc?

 

Ruled out. "•  A.R. to Slayer in the Two Rivers, or him entering ToG."

 

 

What preparations did Moraine make (besides the letter to Thom) after her "trip" in Rhuidean?

 

Ruled out. " A.R. to Moiraine’s knowledge of the future." and "A.R. to either of Moiraine’s notes."

 

Is there something about Aiel/Tinkers/Song/Nym that was overlooked?

 

Ruled out. "**A.R. to the Aiel Memory Collumns, the seed singing, or the Song, including Ogier, Tinker and Aiel implications."

 

How does Rand's sanity relate to the health of the land?

 

Ruled out. "**A.R. to Rand being one with the land, or the changing influence of his ta’verenism, or the effects his corrupted wounds might have through his ta’verenism."

 

What is going on at Black Tower w/Taim and Logain?  Any clues overlooked about Taim?

 

Well Logain wasn't in the Black Tower by then, and as for clues with Taim... sort of ruled out. " A.R. to Taim gaining his freedom, or dealing with Bashere."

 

Fain?

 

Ruled out. " A.R. to Fain in books 4-6."

 

What's happening in Shara?  Is Shara going to be important to TG?

 

Ruled out. "**A.R. to Shara, or reports of war there."

 

 

[BladeDancer]

Maybe something to do with the Wise Ones having knowledge of some events in the future via their initiation experiences in Rhuidean. We've seen that Moraine saw enough about Lanfear to actively ensure that events happened as she needed them to transpire. Similarly the Wise Ones must also have enough knowledge of future events to see the most desirable outcome and the circumstances to bring it about. There are hundreds of Wise Ones - all with knowledge of future events. Wise Ones also just talk amongst themselves all the time. If enough Wise Ones have shared knowledge about their precognitive experiences, they might have a pretty large picture of upcoming events and how to influence these events to have the most favourable outcome.

 

So maybe the Wise Ones have been acting because of this foreknowledge. Or perhaps this knowledge will cause them to do something unexpected by everyone else because they have seen it produces the most favourable outcome.

[pholt1389]

Soup mentioned the first thing that came to mind for me, Rand and Avi's trip to Seanchan. I never understood why the gateway opened straight to there. Pure chance maybe. But it's not really mentioned later in the books (the chanciness of it), so I guess it's ruled out.

[cleantoe]

Soup mentioned the first thing that came to mind for me, Rand and Avi's trip to Seanchan. I never understood why the gateway opened straight to there. Pure chance maybe. But it's not really mentioned later in the books (the chanciness of it), so I guess it's ruled out.

 

Did you guys ever consider that it's not why Aviendha opened a gateway to Seanchan, but HOW she even knew how to do it in the first place, and what other things she subconsciously knows? And more importantly, if she subconsciously knows this stuff, what are the implications?

[nophone]

actually i believe this has been discussed, but this is a good one. i don't remember this part of the book and am not sure how much discussion has gone on about this topic in the past. does anyone have the text available for quotation?

 

[truck16]

I posted before that it might be how the AS learned how to get around Mat's medallion and seem to be tested ways to get around it for books. If he has a rematch with the gholam the AS can assist him with the tactics they learn to use on him, maybe somehow immobilizing gholam so Mat can finish him off. It doesn't breathe or have bones so somehow immobilizing it so Mat can do the Cross to Dracula's head trick might be it.

 

[nophone]

There was a prophesy about someone stepping up or "over" Rand and taking some kind of command in the LB. I had presumed this was going to be Logain.

[Casabamelon]

I've wondered what happend to the Ring of Tamrylin. At first I thought it might have been obliterated w/ LTT when he died. But, in reading the TEotW prologue again, when he channels to kill himself he is unaided. Which would perhaps suggest he didn't have the ring with him. Because if he did he probably would have used that to assist him dying, which he didn't. So I wonder if maybe it is still out there somewhere. Which makes me ask, Is it an Item of the One power? Is it with one of the Items of the One Power caches? Is it the 2nd most powerful Sa'Angreal? Does it still carry any significance?  Just a few thoughts.

He was deliberately trying to immolate himself with the One Power. All the *greals have a buffer built in to keep you from overdrawing the OP (except Callandor, part of the "flaw"). If he used a sa'angreal, then he would not have been able to kill himself.

[Vexorian]

I've wondered what happend to the Ring of Tamrylin. At first I thought it might have been obliterated w/ LTT when he died. But, in reading the TEotW prologue again, when he channels to kill himself he is unaided. Which would perhaps suggest he didn't have the ring with him. Because if he did he probably would have used that to assist him dying, which he didn't. So I wonder if maybe it is still out there somewhere. Which makes me ask, Is it an Item of the One power? Is it with one of the Items of the One Power caches? Is it the 2nd most powerful Sa'Angreal? Does it still carry any significance?  Just a few thoughts.

He was deliberately trying to immolate himself with the One Power. All the *greals have a buffer built in to keep you from overdrawing the OP (except Callandor, part of the "flaw"). If he used a sa'angreal, then he would not have been able to kill himself.

 

Which would suggest that he did not have the Ring with him when he killed himself.

[NetSlider]

I've wondered what happend to the Ring of Tamrylin. At first I thought it might have been obliterated w/ LTT when he died. But, in reading the TEotW prologue again, when he channels to kill himself he is unaided. Which would perhaps suggest he didn't have the ring with him. Because if he did he probably would have used that to assist him dying, which he didn't. So I wonder if maybe it is still out there somewhere. Which makes me ask, Is it an Item of the One power? Is it with one of the Items of the One Power caches? Is it the 2nd most powerful Sa'Angreal? Does it still carry any significance?  Just a few thoughts.

He was deliberately trying to immolate himself with the One Power. All the *greals have a buffer built in to keep you from overdrawing the OP (except Callandor, part of the "flaw"). If he used a sa'angreal, then he would not have been able to kill himself.

Not really true, you can still over-reach with sa'angreal if you get to the limit of its ability and than go further. The buffer that is there lets you draw a lot more without burning you out. Now, the interesting question is how the hell LTT made the Dragonmount? Rand had Kal with him in "The Veins of Gold" and the amount he draw was equal to when he cleansed saidin and created the Dragonmount (that's according to Rand himself). So, was the LTT so powerful that he could have drawn enough power to make the Dragonmount? Or was he using some sort of sa'angreal? Or, and this is a very long shot theory but someone mentioned it somewhere more than once, the Creator helped him to create the Dragonmount?

Btw, has the Dragonmount always had that gash on the side or was it something introduced after the rebirth?

[lammbo]

Soup mentioned the first thing that came to mind for me, Rand and Avi's trip to Seanchan. I never understood why the gateway opened straight to there. Pure chance maybe. But it's not really mentioned later in the books (the chanciness of it), so I guess it's ruled out.

 

Did you guys ever consider that it's not why Aviendha opened a gateway to Seanchan, but HOW she even knew how to do it in the first place, and what other things she subconsciously knows? And more importantly, if she subconsciously knows this stuff, what are the implications?

 

I thought about this as well and maybe this is one of those cases where she subconsciously learned it from the T'A that let her see her possible futures.  She 'saw' herself make a gateway to get away from Rand; then in real life when the situation arose, her mind remembered the weave when she did it in the T'A.  Kind of paradoxical, though it's not the first time in these books or any other sci-fi/fantasy that involves glimpses of the future (Lost and Fast Forward are recent examples).  I think the destination of Senchan was not significant in and of itself.