The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[OHurley]

Maybe it's like the transporter in star trek. If you're touching someone else that hasn't been through and you have, maybe you get sucked in because you're in physical contact with one who hasn't?

[wumpus]

Good point...and we don't know if she did enter it before "falling" though we know that she returned after rand and mat. though i must say that mat could not enter second time in tear but maybe moraine could because she was channeling.

On the contrary, we do know that Moiraine didn't go through the red doorframe ter'angreal in Rhuidean -- Mat attempts to go back through one of them (can't recall which at the moment), and he just goes through as if it was a normal door frame. If Moiraine had already been through once, she wouldn't have been able to go through a second time.

 

Well she was fighting Lanfear at the time, and it did melt...

[The Fisher King]

Right. We know you can't CHOOSE to go through a second time.

 

But...Moirane didn't exactly ''Choose'' to go through - She was pulled in against her will by a Forsaken with loads of the One Power going off everywhere...that all may have just been enough to bend the rules right then and there.

 

 

Fish

[ed2funy]

true.....

 

or if she had gone through before....she might have just "felt" lanfear slipping out of her arms while she fell through....

 

Plus, didn't she tell the Wise Ones she would only go through the three archy ter'angreal....

 

and if she went through that...and she knew about the docks that day....she wouldn't have gone through....

 

 

 

Hey, Mat gained the memories, ashanderi, and and medallion....what will Moiraine gain?

[jemron]

Moiraine had not previously entered the doorframe.  Remember how careful she was with it, and how she specifically made sure that it was placed just so on the wagon by other men for the moment when she knew she would fight Lanfear at the docks?  Also, she knew full well what would happen when she attacked Lanfear.  She knowingly entered the doorframe at that moment, because what she saw in the Rings in Rhuidean told her that would happen.

 

We don't know what Moiraine will gain, but it is likely that she lost her link to saidar, since her bond with Lan shut off when she went in.  Who knows, maybe she actually died, and will somehow be able to come back?

 

Some have theorized that Moiraine will come back as strong as Lanfear was before she died.  I don't know if I agree with that, but it's a possibility.

[Thermos]

Never posted here before, but I just read the new book (after having put these books largely out of my mind for the last four years or so) and stumbled upon this thread.  And I'm curious, because having never participated in any web communities, I don't know what was or was not discussed from books 4-6, and the new author seems incredulous that people haven't noticed this puzzle, so I wonder if maybe I have.  Although I likely wouldn't remember it, since I haven't reread those books in some time now.

 

One thing that I always wondered about which seems to fit Sanderson's description, and I'm not sure which book it was in or where you could say it started exactly.  But at some point, Mat's army stumbles on a caravan of murdered Tinkers, with the message "Tell the Dragon Reborn" written in blood on a busted wagon.  I don't know if this was ever discussed on the interweb anywhere, but it certainly fits the description of a small hint of something bigger that's never been explained, and invites scrutiny.

 

Thinking about it, this must have been after book 4, but I think it must have been in 6, so it sort of fits.  Book 4, though, has the first revelations of the ties between the Aiel and the Tinkers, notably Rand seeing them dance with the ogier and the green man, which of course is likely the song the Tinkers say they've been searching for.  None of this gives any clue what a bunch of Tinkers might have been murdered to keep the Dragon Reborn from knowing, but there are a lot of hints that the Tinkers, and Avendesora, are more important than we're sometimes led to believe.

 

Also, the remark that it's more important than who killed Asmodean strikes me as odd, since I've never seen that as something thats necessarily so important.  It could easily have been Shaidar Haran, Slayer, or any number of darkfriend types, with the easy assumption being that it was done to keep him from further developing Rand's talents with the power.  The scene was written in something of a provocative way, suggesting that the knowledge was important, but I don't know what makes this seem like a particularly significant puzzle to some people.  He served his purpose in the story and he got ganked by those he betrayed, knowing who pulled the proverbial trigger doesn't necessarily expand on that any more than any number of other pieces of information people have no reason to wonder about.

[jemron]

Welcome!

 

Well, I love the Tinkers idea, but I think it has already been discussed into oblivion and discounted by Brandon's assistant.

 

As for the "Who killed Asmodean?" thing.  Let me just say as kindly as I can "you have no idea what you're getting yourself into."  Since you claim you've never really posted on these forums nor read much of the fan based stuff about the series, you probably don't know but the "Asmodean's killer" debate is probably the number one most discussed mystery of the WoT by fans.  I can't give you all the theories and all that, but just know that Brandon Sanderson mentioned it specifically because it is soooooooo discussed.  Not because it is necessarily important to the story.  I think he was saying that there is something much more important TO DISCUSS than the Asmodean debate, and that he was surprised we weren't discussing it.

 

Also, it couldn't have been SH and Slayer has been all but ruled out.  It was most likely Graendal or Aviendha or, dare I say it, Lanfear IMO.

[Ashaman Kovan]

But at some point, Mat's army stumbles on a caravan of murdered Tinkers, with the message "Tell the Dragon Reborn" written in blood on a busted wagon. 

 

I always thought that some Shaido sent through a Gateway by Sammael had killed those Tinkers and that the message was dictated to the Tinker by them as a way to inflame Rand and make him do something foolish. Or just to provoke him in general.

 

Also, the remark that it's more important than who killed Asmodean strikes me as odd, since I've never seen that as something thats necessarily so important

 

Yes, you obviously are new to the WoT online community. Be careful when treading on this ground. Fair warning. ;)

Also there is no way it could have been SH as he wasn't introduced at the time of Asmodeans murder. Personally I lean towards Slayer or Taim, but I'll be happy with anyone other than Graendal lol. You can go here and see all the theories and the like. http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,9967.0.html

[Ashaman Kovan]

Slayer has been all but ruled out. 

 

Not quite. :)

[jemron]

Slayer has been all but ruled out. 

 

Not quite. :)

 

Hehe.  This is what makes WoT sooooo cool.  Who knows?  I'm with you though, I don't want it to be Graendal.  I want it to be Lanfear.

[Sharaman]

@Thermos - check out the Who Killed Asmo thread - all 250 pages of it!

The Shaido wouldn't kill tinkers - some bits of toh they adhere to. They don't take blacksmiths gaishain either.

But yeah the Tinker thing is probably important given Egwene's journey in Dreamtime to a tinker caravan.

 

[Calderis]

I'm with the new guy on this one (being fairly new myself after a long hiatus),

 

Last I checked forums was around WH, and even then I never got this discussion.

 

I get the curiousity, but don't see how it will have any further relevance to the story.

[Ashaman Kovan]

The Shaido wouldn't kill tinkers -

 

You think you know that how?

[Ashaman Kovan]

I get the curiousity, but don't see how it will have any further relevance to the story.

 

Are you referring to the Asmodean mystery?

[Calderis]

I get the curiousity, but don't see how it will have any further relevance to the story.

 

Are you referring to the Asmodean mystery?

 

Yes. It's one of the things that I honestly think could NEVER be answered, and would make people crazy, and still not alter the story

[Thermos]

Not because it is necessarily important to the story.  I think he was saying that there is something much more important TO DISCUSS than the Asmodean debate, and that he was surprised we weren't discussing it.

 

Yea, thats kind of what I was getting at.  I had picked up on this being a topic of some discussion, and it seems stupid to have singled this out as an important thing to be talking about, so saying that this unnoticed event from books 4-6 is more important than that, doesn't necessarily mean it's so drastically important as it's tempting to think it might be.

 

As for Shaidar Haran, the fact that he hadn't been introduced to us yet doesn't mean he didn't exist.  In fact, as I recall, he was introduced promptly at the beginning of the next book, almost the very next thing Jordan wrote after that murder was our first Shaidar Haran sighting.  This almost makes me think he's the most logical choice, as he was already very likely on Jordan's mind, but hadn't yet been shown to us.  Being the unseen murder of an important character is a nice way to introduce a character you've already thought up but not yet revealed.  That said, I'd hate to turn the discussion here that way if the internet has already been beating this dead horse for more than a decade.

 

 

[NetSlider]

Completely agree (myself, never followed Asmo posts because it WILL defensibly drive me insane, and I mean like "Ah, honey, kids and I think you need help now..."). And in anyway, I thought that the mystery was already reviled and that it was agreed that Bela did it (I mean right after she created the world, being as she is the Creator and all). ;D

[ed2funy]

no...it wasn't Bela...

well, not exactly...she had a child of the light do it!

she teleported him in...gave him aswesome powers....took him back to Amador!

 

 

 

[NetSlider]

Amador???!!! How did I not think of this earlier??? Now everything makes perfect sense!

[ed2funy]

you have to commune with the almighty Bela...

 

just light some candles....sacrifice some carrots...all that good stuff....

 

:P ;D ;D

[NetSlider]

I kind of posted this before but I think I now have a lot better grasp at what I tried to say.

Do you guys remember the AS that came to Aiel in Rand's vision in Rhudian and took some things from them after healing some of them. She said something about Ishi still being free or not completely sealed. Maybe she is the one that is being overlooked. Here couple questions:

Why she did not take the Key (I resume they had it with them considering how they eventually had it in Rhudian)?

Who is she (more importantly I guess)?

Why no one directly knew that Ishi was free (except some writings referring to him being Baalzemon)later on if she knew?

We know that Ishi was next to Hawkwing when he died and he also created falls prophecy among Seanchan thus sealing "second doom". But what about the AS that created leashes and later was leashed? Was she BA? How did she get to travel with Hawkwing's armies overseas? And how did other AS travel with the same armies? Hawkwing hated AS!

Who is Cadsuane's "teacher" in the mountains that taut her humility and from whom she earned her angreals and sa'angreals?

And most importantly, how long can the AS live without taking oath (it would be ironic if forever)?

Are these mysterious AS are the same and one person? The same one that argued against the Strike on Shail Goul? (dont remember her name)

 

OR IS THE TAINT TAKING ITS TOLL ON ME AND I'M LOOSING MY MIND?!

[Sharaman]

The Shaido wouldn't kill tinkers -

 

You think you know that how?

They still adhere to Toh in their own way - like I said, they don't take smiths gaishain - the whole Malden episode. Ergo, they wouldn't kill tinkers.

 

[analyticalkeys]

The Shaido wouldn't kill tinkers -

 

You think you know that how?

They still adhere to Toh in their own way - like I said, they don't take smiths gaishain - the whole Malden episode. Ergo, they wouldn't kill tinkers.

 

 

Except they just found out they used to be Tinkers in their own fashion, so that might make them angry enough to kill them when they saw them right after crossing the Spine. They stick to some customs, and toh.. but they have faltered in other spots.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I get the curiousity, but don't see how it will have any further relevance to the story.

 

Are you referring to the Asmodean mystery?

 

Yes. It's one of the things that I honestly think could NEVER be answered, and would make people crazy, and still not alter the story

 

I don't think that it altering the story, or lack there of, is what is so enticing about the whole thing.

For me it's mostly the fact that it is such a relatively small thing compared to the scope of the entire story that there isn't any reason we shouldn't know lol. But we don't. In a world where we see almost everything it's just extremely irritating for this one thing to still be so elusive. That's sort of my perspective on it at least.

[Ashaman Kovan]

The Shaido wouldn't kill tinkers -

 

You think you know that how?

like I said, they don't take smiths gaishain -

 

Yes. Instead they take Wetlanders as "Gaishain" but treat them like Da'Tsang and they kill anyone who isn't of use to them and completely loot the cities and towns they attack completely ignoring the custom on taking only the fifth.

It stands to reason that they don't mistreat smiths. They have a special skill and are more valuable if kept healthy and injury free. That isn't a matter of honor but one of practicality. I assume you're talking about the Wetlander smiths? Since they never had a chance to take any Aiel smiths from any other clans.