The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Nightstrike]

A trolloc would be reborn as a trolloc, not as a human. I'd say it is most likely also true that a human won't be reborn as a trolloc. Otherwise they would run out of human souls after many turns of the wheel. :D

 

[haloun]

i've said what i said.... i digress

[Sharaman]

also I just realized that horn sounder is what brigitte calls matt i believe, and i have always thought that gaidal cain was ripped out of TR and put in a myrdralls body, or was reborn as a myrdrall, that is one other thought that i have had.  i am full of things that have been unoticed, such as the horn has not been mentioned since fain taking him, the seanchan could have taken it, or might now that they have aes sedai who can channel, at least they have elaida.

 

The Horn has been heavily discussed and it's been part of the plot line since Book II.

Birgitte calls Mat "Sounder of the Horn" in ACoS, which is book VII, so it's also out of range for the BUT.

 

However, as to the Horn's current location.

 

Fain "knew" somehow the HoV was in the Tower strongrooms (TFoH, I think) but he had no time to hunt it out when Alviarin caught him. As far as we know, only Verin and Suian knew the exact location of the HoV.

 

There's reason to believe that it was not picked up by the Seanchan in their raid, for two reasons.

One is that Egwene grabbed ang'real from the tower strongrooms, which were not under assault, when she did it. So the Seanchan never focussed on the strongrooms.

 

The second reason is that Verin had been rooting around in the strongrooms earlier that day before the raid. She didn't find the Oath Rod but she may have removed the HoV and left it somewhere else for Mat to find (along with instructions for Mat in the famous letter).

 

   

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

The second reason is that Verin had been rooting around in the strongrooms earlier that day before the raid. She didn't find the Oath Rod but she may have removed the HoV and left it somewhere else for Mat to find (along with instructions for Mat in the famous letter).

 

   

 

I never thought of that! Entirely possible, I like it, I always wondered how Mat would get the horn again, I kinda doubted that he would just get it handed to him by a good little AS messenger girl.

One thing however, Verin had not been to the Tower when she delivered the letter to Mat and she died without leaving the tower whilst there with Egwene.(although I suppose she could have travelled quickly and returned)

 

I suppose however, it does fit in with what she said. She thought she may be able to come back with the horn herself, but then as a precaution in the event of her death, told Mat where he could find the Horn. I like the Idea, and i think it is entirely possible.

[Sharaman]

The letter is post-dated (as in Mat must wait before opening it).

Verin could easily leave contingent instructions - "If you're reading this and I haven;t given you the HoV earlier, I'm dead and the HoV is stashed away in such and such a place or with such and such person"

[Soloce]

She can only do things that she can at least in some way think of as not betraying the Dark One.  Giving the HoV to Mat would probably cross that line.  Even if we say she found it during the hour before her death, the letter writing didn't occur then, and we know oaths can't be broken in writing either. 

[darth_hel]

That's why she made Matt swear not to read it till after she could be sure she'd either return and take the letter away or have suicided and be free of the oaths, at least that's what I figured.

[DocBean]

She can only do things that she can at least in some way think of as not betraying the Dark One.  Giving the HoV to Mat would probably cross that line.  Even if we say she found it during the hour before her death, the letter writing didn't occur then, and we know oaths can't be broken in writing either. 

 

she might have been able to get around that Oath by warding the letter.

If she set it to burn if opened before the time limit (if Mat decided to open it early) then she wouldn't be betraying the Great Lord by writing the letter.

 

If she knows nothing she's done by writing that letter will affect the Great Lord until she's gone, then I think she could physically write the letter.

[Val Mickey]

Just thinking aloud : If Asmo's immortality was lost when his death was reversed, could Mat's link to the HoV also be affected? Or his link with the Finns?

[FarShainMael]

Well, he's still getting other people's memories. As for the HoV.. dunno. Birgitte called him Hornsounder, but we don't know if that's just from meeting him at Falme or whether she can sense something in him.

 

Wasn't Asmo's immortality lost when Rand severed the black cords linking him to the DO?

 

[Sharaman]

(Asmo's immortality was contingent on his remaining a faithful servant of GLoD so his death-revival at Caemlyn had no real bearing)

It's been speculated a lot that Mat is no longer linked to the HoV because he died and lived again. One possible answer is that his death never happened because of the BF reversal. If that is true, the link is still active.

 

 

[Duskfire]

He'll still be linked. Sounding the Horn is a part of Mats character and one of the major ties between him and Odin.

[Sharaman]

He'll still be linked. Sounding the Horn is a part of Mats character and one of the major ties between him and Odin.

Heimdall blows the horn in the Norse Ragnarok.

 

[Duskfire]

He'll still be linked. Sounding the Horn is a part of Mats character and one of the major ties between him and Odin.

Heimdall blows the horn in the Norse Ragnarok.

 

 

Thats true, but the tie I was thinking of was Odin being the ruler of Asgard as well as leading slain warriors into battle, etc etc.

[Val Mickey]

FarShain, the memories are already inside his brain, he doesn't have to 'get' them. Sharaman, I doubt the DO sees that far, I mean knowing what's inside his servants' head or the extent of their loyalty. I remember Asmo once saying 'She could lie to the Great Lord himself.' At least he can't do them outside Shayol Ghul. Also the black things were taint filters, not connections to the DO. Asmo clearly remarks that his immortality was lost, but not his allegiance as it were, just before his unsolved murder.

 

Even if the connection to the Finns were lost, that would be an advantage for Mat.

[Sharaman]

GLoD promised immortality for his Chosen servants.

It's not an irrevocable, automatic gift.

Ishamael apparently received some version of it since he's been free at various times for long periods and therefore already lived longer than even any channeler has a right to.

The others were all walled away outside time in the Bore.

They haven't any of them actually got immortality yet - they were in suspended animation and they were well within normal channeler lifespans when released.

Asmo no longer had any hopes of receiving it - he was prepared to kill himself if GLoD ever got loose.

 

(At least some WoT fans speculate that GLoD has no intention of giving them immortality - he will just destroy the Pattern forever.)

 

As to knowledge, who knows what GLoD knows?

Demandred was continually surprised both by GLod's knowledge and ignorance.

 

 

 

[Dreamwalker]

GLoD promised immortality for his Chosen servants.

It's not an irrevocable, automatic gift.

Ishamael apparently received some version of it since he's been free at various times for long periods and therefore already lived longer than even any channeler has a right to.

The others were all walled away outside time in the Bore.

They haven't any of them actually got immortality yet - they were in suspended animation and they were well within normal channeler lifespans when released.

Asmo no longer had any hopes of receiving it - he was prepared to kill himself if GLoD ever got loose.

 

(At least some WoT fans speculate that GLoD has no intention of giving them immortality - he will just destroy the Pattern forever.)

 

As to knowledge, who knows what GLoD knows?

Demandred was continually surprised both by GLod's knowledge and ignorance.

 

 

 

 

I've always suspected that the "immortality" that the DO grants the Forsaken is really just that he will transmigrate them into another body if they die - and we know he only does this at his own discretion and if he is not pleased with you he either won't do it, or he'll play a mean joke on you (like Aran'gar).

[Sharaman]

Well, Ishamael has been free and wandering around for various stretches of 40 (?)years at a time through the last 3,000 years since the Sealing.

We've got one description of him as Hawkwing's adviser, which says his appearance didn't change at all over the long period that he was in the public eye.

We don't have a periodicity to Ishy's free periods but taken together, they may add up to much longer than even channeler life-spans. Ishy wasn't young when the Sealing occurred - he was a 300-plus channeler (I think) and he looks middle-aged, which would fit.

Also, the body rots really fast in TDR, which suggests that some form of unnatural preservation was involved.

So it's possible that GLoD can actually preserve life indefinitely.

Apart from transmigration, of course.

 

 

[bobothebarbarian]

the last 2 comments are both really good points now i don't know what to think  ;D

[FarShainMael]

FarShain, the memories are already inside his brain, he doesn't have to 'get' them.

 

This was what I had in mind (excuse the pun):

From EWoT: In KoD Ch8, Mat is pursuing Tuon who has decided to dash off on her razor. He catches up with her at a place he recognises as Londaren Cor, the capital city of Eharon. 'Mat wonders how the Eelfinn collected memories from dead men.  Mat thinks they must create a link so they must still be in his head, too.'

 

I had it backwards, the 'finns are getting the memories from him!

 

On another topic:

 

I'm puzzled. Why would the Forsaken want immortality when they know they will be reborn? 'By my hope of salvation and rebirth'.

 

 

[Luckers]

FarShain, the memories are already inside his brain, he doesn't have to 'get' them.

 

This was what I had in mind (excuse the pun):

From EWoT: In KoD Ch8, Mat is pursuing Tuon who has decided to dash off on her razor. He catches up with her at a place he recognises as Londaren Cor, the capital city of Eharon. 'Mat wonders how the Eelfinn collected memories from dead men.  Mat thinks they must create a link so they must still be in his head, too.'

 

I had it backwards, the 'finns are getting the memories from him!

 

On another topic:

 

I'm puzzled. Why would the Forsaken want immortality when they know they will be reborn? 'By my hope of salvation and rebirth'.

 

 

 

Jordan commented on this once. Though their soul will live on, they--the individual incarnation, the coherent personality that is them in that life--will not. That's enough to want to keep, don't you think?

[FarShainMael]

Oh, so that's how it works! Unless you're the DR, of course..

 

[Luckers]

No. The incarnation doesn't die, it is simply absorbed into the greater cohesion of the soul. Anyone can undergo what Rand does, the manifestation of a past life--its a natural form of madness--which means all that that person was is still there.

 

Still, I can understand why the Forsaken would wish to secure themselves as they are in that incarnation. It's hard to be objective about yourself being lost into something greater--that was what nearly drove Rand mad, his inability to accept he and Lews Therin were one. A soul cannot split and he refused to let it intergrate so two personalities struggled futily for control.

[FarShainMael]

And, of course, the DO would do Its infernal best to make sure that Its 'chosen' wouldn't realise what they were losing by going for Its form of 'immortality'.

 

[OptimusPrime]

GLoD promised immortality for his Chosen servants.

It's not an irrevocable, automatic gift.

Ishamael apparently received some version of it since he's been free at various times for long periods and therefore already lived longer than even any channeler has a right to.

The others were all walled away outside time in the Bore.

They haven't any of them actually got immortality yet - they were in suspended animation and they were well within normal channeler lifespans when released.

Asmo no longer had any hopes of receiving it - he was prepared to kill himself if GLoD ever got loose.

 

(At least some WoT fans speculate that GLoD has no intention of giving them immortality - he will just destroy the Pattern forever.)

 

As to knowledge, who knows what GLoD knows?

Demandred was continually surprised both by GLod's knowledge and ignorance.

 

 

 

 

I've always suspected that the "immortality" that the DO grants the Forsaken is really just that he will transmigrate them into another body if they die - and we know he only does this at his own discretion and if he is not pleased with you he either won't do it, or he'll play a mean joke on you (like Aran'gar).

 

Ive begun to think this myself as well recently. A while ago I questioned for a minute the possibility of Ishamael having been killed before, by Lews Therin, and having been reincarnated and reintroduced himself to Lews and THAT be the Ishamael face we saw in EotW prologue, but... it wasnt a theory, just an envisioning on what it'd be like if Lews Therin knew what Ishamael said about bringing Ilyena back was really possible, however likely or unlikely.