The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Stevros]

I don't think Verin killed Asmo, because why would he recognise her.

 

Also check out the Masema thread to see the discussion about weather or not Annoura is BA, because someone picked up an intresting clue that suggest she is BA, that I for one missed when I read the series.

[Dorkfiend]

So, with Verin coming clean about being BA.  Does this mean she's the one who killed Asmo?

 

No, there's no support for that theory.  However, it is quite likely that Verin was the one who ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean, Verin herself on orders from Mesaana.  Mesaana's memory was wiped by means of compulsion by Semirhage, who was herself acting on orders from Demandred.  And the ultimate answer to all whodunnits is, of course, Demandred.

 

That should all be crystal clear to any toddler who happens to be wandering by ...

 

[benr]

I don't have any solid proof, but I can't shake the feeling that Messy is Laras the head cook. She would receive almost no oversight in that role, and can easily meet/message anyone in the tower through food deliveries. She helped to sneak out Siuan and Leane expecting it to foster more trouble and division within the white tower.

 

My unsupported theory aside, Messy likely isn't one of the Ajah heads since she orders Alviaran to learn why the heads of the Ajahs are meeting in Path of Daggers.

 

Many people have thought that Laras was a good candidate to be Messana (including me), and she was an attractive one.  She was mentioned quite a bit, and she did things that could be interpreted as something Mesaana might do.  However, Verin categorically states that Laras is not, nor ever would or could be, someone that would swear to the Dark One.  In language as plain as day. I think Laras was a red herring.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Plus, none of the Forsaken would deign to even pick-up after themselves, let alone cook and clean and supervise a kitchen.

 

Laras was never a viable candidate.

[ed2funy]

 

Anywho, I think the Black Ajah clensing was a very unexpected plot twist.  The "Clensing" through Verin's book info was a great "out of left field" twist.

 

Of course, how could we not see it coming...

In Egwene's Accepted test in the ter'angreal that somehow might be related to the one in Rhuidean, she said something about the Great Purge or whatever....

 

Also, Verin is awesome.....Best minor character ever!

As someone says earlier in this post, she redeemed herself and then some....

 

 

[WWWwombat]

I agree with Bob that Laras was never a viable candidate, especially since Alviarin saw Mesaana wearing fancy skirts.  Furthermore, Cadsuane is almost definitely bound by the Oath Rod as she still has the ageless look.  Remember that Verin was bound by the Oath Rod, just not to the Three Oaths.

[Paendragon]

I love the Verin twist, a light side spy, just when it seems that "good" really is dumb...

Also, I find it amusing that she knew Messana was in the tower but couldn't identify her... Verin is smart, but not forsaken smart. heheheh.

 

She should have started the purge with all the Aes Sedi present, not allowing word to spread. although spies would act quickly, the advantage of traveling would have been cut off, and after they trounced Tar Valon they "interrogate" the remaining Tower residents. They would loose only the ones who fled the fight, which might be a lot, or depending on Messana's level of control, might be very few.

 

 

80 Black Ajah is a fair amount of channelers, I'm betting there are WAY more Ashaman who are Darkfriends...

[Crossroad]

What was left of the BA after the cleansing at the tower I reckon headed for the next place available to them where other Darkfriends are gathering.  The Black Tower.

[Ged]

Darkfriends aren't gathering at the BT obviously.

 

Considering all the WT BA vanished together, one assumes that a plan was in place for this kind of situation and they were alerted by what happened in the Rebel camp.

[boreden]

 

It may have been said but by cleansing the Black Sisters did the the White tower give the dark one a powerful tool.  Will this allow him to pick and choose new Dreadlords from the Dead Sisters.  To me it doesn't seem like he would waste the resources if he has women oath sworn to follow him .

[coteaz]

By cleansing the white tower the dark one gains the tool of all the remaining black ajah in one fighting force, instead of them being undercover in the white tower. He is free to see them instructed in dangerous weaves, now that they cant be passed on.

[Sharaman]

The BA are untrained as soldiers, unused to battle weaves and to handling battlefield situations. By exposing them and driving them out, Egwene has limited their effectiveness as spies and assassins and as agents who can use diplomacy and compulsion to influence events. If she has the brains to circulate their descriptions among the elite (extremely doubtful since it would mean admitting an internal problems which the TV twits are always loath to do) she could ensure that they don't have access to courts and camps and treasuries.

Net-net, the forces of the Light certainly gain by Egwene's actions.

In passing, I wonder, who wielded the axe in the BA executions. It's not said.

 

[fader6818]

Mesaana is still in the Tower, even after being re-sworn. The context of the conversation seemed to imply that she's a full sister who managed to be re-sworn. Something about the Oaths having holes big enough to drive trucks through.

 

I suspect Mesaana doesn't consider herself a Darkfriend and managed to tell the truth without betraying her identity.

 

Of course, Brandon is likely Aes Sedai himself, and could have been baiting.

[everygamer]

Not sure if anyone else has already posted this, but it seems to jump out as pretty obvious...

 

Verin =  Mesaana

 

1. Verin gives Mat a letter and forces him to agree to either open it and take action or wait for her return. She knows she is coming back, even says that she will but is not shure how long it will be.

 

2. She takes the posion and kills her self, and even says while talking to Eguene something along the lines "until I return".

 

3. The Dark One will revive all of the forsaken that are not killed with Balefire.

 

4. So Mesaana starts the purge on the black ... but most in the tower escape anyway. Those black sisters running loose on the world will soe more chaos than them sitting and scheming in the tower.

 

5. By killing herself Verin took herself off the list of people that Eguene would consider as being Mesaana, in fact now she is looking for those women that fled that were not on the list. So she is misdirected from the truth, that the forsaken was sitting right in front of her, and will be back to do more damage later while the tower is looking in the wrong direction.

[Sharaman]

Not sure if anyone else has already posted this, but it seems to jump out as pretty obvious...

 

Verin =  Mesaana

 

1. Verin gives Mat a letter and forces him to agree to either open it and take action or wait for her return. She knows she is coming back, even says that she will but is not shure how long it will be.

 

2. She takes the posion and kills her self, and even says while talking to Eguene something along the lines "until I return".

 

3. The Dark One will revive all of the forsaken that are not killed with Balefire.

 

4. So Mesaana starts the purge on the black ... but most in the tower escape anyway. Those black sisters running loose on the world will soe more chaos than them sitting and scheming in the tower.

 

5. By killing herself Verin took herself off the list of people that Eguene would consider as being Mesaana, in fact now she is looking for those women that fled that were not on the list. So she is misdirected from the truth, that the forsaken was sitting right in front of her, and will be back to do more damage later while the tower is looking in the wrong direction.

 

Why would M want to purge the black ?

Why would V warn Egwene that M (or some other forsaken) is in the Tower?

Why would V say she'd met M twice but found her so shrouded that she couldn't nail her identity?

Why would V die and continue to look like Verin (stout, grandmotherly, gray haired,ageless face) while M when stripped by Shaidar looks t be in early middle age, brown hair, normal face, slimmish and on the tall side?

Is this is a serious effort or is it like my attempt to "prove" Demandred = Berelain?

 

[jemron]

Not sure if anyone else has already posted this, but it seems to jump out as pretty obvious...

 

Verin =  Mesaana

 

1. Verin gives Mat a letter and forces him to agree to either open it and take action or wait for her return. She knows she is coming back, even says that she will but is not shure how long it will be.

 

2. She takes the posion and kills her self, and even says while talking to Eguene something along the lines "until I return".

 

3. The Dark One will revive all of the forsaken that are not killed with Balefire.

 

4. So Mesaana starts the purge on the black ... but most in the tower escape anyway. Those black sisters running loose on the world will soe more chaos than them sitting and scheming in the tower.

 

5. By killing herself Verin took herself off the list of people that Eguene would consider as being Mesaana, in fact now she is looking for those women that fled that were not on the list. So she is misdirected from the truth, that the forsaken was sitting right in front of her, and will be back to do more damage later while the tower is looking in the wrong direction.

 

Um..... No... No, I don't think so.

[benr]

Verin isn't/wasn't Mesaana, but something has occurred to me about her.  Her soul belongs to the Dark One; her bravery jumps a thousand fold with her knowing that the DO would know what she did.  Her soul was not going to a happy place.

[Ashamandragoran]

Mesaana is still in the Tower, even after being re-sworn. The context of the conversation seemed to imply that she's a full sister who managed to be re-sworn. Something about the Oaths having holes big enough to drive trucks through.

 

I suspect Mesaana doesn't consider herself a Darkfriend and managed to tell the truth without betraying her identity.

 

Of course, Brandon is likely Aes Sedai himself, and could have been baiting.

 

I agree that most likely she doesn't consider herself a darkfriend

 

but another option is that she isn't pretending to be a sister and is hiding as somebody else in the Tower

[Thorn]

Verin isn't/wasn't Mesaana, but something has occurred to me about her.  Her soul belongs to the Dark One; her bravery jumps a thousand fold with her knowing that the DO would know what she did.  Her soul was not going to a happy place.

 

Somehow, I doubt that. My guess is that her soul was "as white as the Light itself," and she found redemption by her actions. There's the quote early on that "no one can walk so far in the darkness that they cannot find their way to the Light," Ingtar's redemption, etc.

[Luckers]

Verin herself expresses doubt that she can be free of the Dark One so easily. Nevertheless I think she deemed it worth the price.

[Mr Ares]

The BA are untrained as soldiers, unused to battle weaves and to handling battlefield situations. By exposing them and driving them out, Egwene has limited their effectiveness as spies and assassins and as agents who can use diplomacy and compulsion to influence events. If she has the brains to circulate their descriptions among the elite (extremely doubtful since it would mean admitting an internal problems which the TV twits are always loath to do) she could ensure that they don't have access to courts and camps and treasuries.

Slight problem with circulating their descriptions: there's a hell of a lot of them. Over a hundred. How are people going to remember all of them? Circulating a description of a small group is doable, but people won't be able to remember over ahundred different descriptions, they'll get confused, and I really don't think it would help all that much.

 

Not sure if anyone else has already posted this, but it seems to jump out as pretty obvious...

 

Verin =  Mesaana

 

1. Verin gives Mat a letter and forces him to agree to either open it and take action or wait for her return. She knows she is coming back, even says that she will but is not shure how long it will be.

 

2. She takes the posion and kills her self, and even says while talking to Eguene something along the lines "until I return".

 

3. The Dark One will revive all of the forsaken that are not killed with Balefire.

 

4. So Mesaana starts the purge on the black ... but most in the tower escape anyway. Those black sisters running loose on the world will soe more chaos than them sitting and scheming in the tower.

 

5. By killing herself Verin took herself off the list of people that Eguene would consider as being Mesaana, in fact now she is looking for those women that fled that were not on the list. So she is misdirected from the truth, that the forsaken was sitting right in front of her, and will be back to do more damage later while the tower is looking in the wrong direction.

I'm not sure you quite grasp the definition of the word obvious. This is convoluted. Firstly, we have never seen a Chosen come back within such a short space of time as 30 days, let alone the ten Mat would need if he opens the letter. That wait seems like a contingency plan - if she's back, he doesn't need to open it, if she isn't he does. The longer wait for burning the letter is to convince him not to. Shai'tan can revive the Chosen, but that doesn't mean He will, that He'll even have time before TG. If you wanted the BA out and about, causing chaos, just order them to do so. No need to start a purge, which lets every sister know the BA exists, who is in it, makes sure none can hide amongst the WT, and gets the best part of a hundred of their own killed to no gain for the Shadow. And while Egwene won't now suspect Verin of being Mesaana, that doesn't really matter because she isn't. Even if she comes back, it won't be as Verin (or Mesaana - all the new Chosen got new names). So this new woman will be just as much a suspect as anyone.

 

Demandred = Berelain?

That's actually more plausible.

[benr]

 

Demandred = Berelain?

That's actually more plausible.

 

Sure.  It explains why Berelain lost interest in "stalking" Perrin.

[Luckers]

 

Demandred = Berelain?

That's actually more plausible.

 

Sure.  It explains why Berelain lost interest in "stalking" Perrin.

 

Your presuming Demadred doesn't love the man candy. Meanwhile doesn't he just seem a little bit too caught up with hating Lews Therin's brilliance. A kid punching the person he likes, mayhap?  ;D

[WWWwombat]

Man I wish I thought of that one.

[benr]

 

Demandred = Berelain?

That's actually more plausible.

 

Sure.  It explains why Berelain lost interest in "stalking" Perrin.

 

Your presuming Demadred doesn't love the man candy. Meanwhile doesn't he just seem a little bit too caught up with hating Lews Therin's brilliance. A kid punching the person he likes, mayhap?  ;D

 

Yes; he does seem to be a very repressed personality.  I guess you've proved that Deman isn't Berelain.