The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Astus]

Yes RJ did address this issue as well, those forcefully turned would not feel any desire to GO back. It seems once they are turned, they are turned for good. It seems Verin saved herself from that fate by willingly joining and thus being able to reveal all of them. Who knew Verin would turn out to be like Snape in the end.

Psh! Verin makes what Snape did look like child's play  :P

Plus she's infinitely more awesome than the dude xP

[lillcheese]

Yes RJ did address this issue as well, those forcefully turned would not feel any desire to GO back. It seems once they are turned, they are turned for good. It seems Verin saved herself from that fate by willingly joining and thus being able to reveal all of them. Who knew Verin would turn out to be like Snape in the end.

Psh! Verin makes what Snape did look like child's play  :P

Plus she's infinitely more awesome than the dude xP

 

Wait, Snape isn't evil?  Great.  No point in seeing that last movie or two now I guess. Oh wait, Alan Rickman.  He's so dreamy.  I guess I do have a reason.

 

Does it seem odd to anyone that, after knowing about the 13/13 for so many books, we've never seen it happen?  I suppose it was just a good device to inspire terror, but it seems like a waste.

[Astus]

Does it seem odd to anyone that, after knowing about the 13/13 for so many books, we've never seen it happen?  I suppose it was just a good device to inspire terror, but it seems like a waste.

Indeed. I was hoping we'd see someone get turned. Or at least have a person who got turned reflect on it, that it was such a 'great' experience since they're swinging on the evil branch now (...Sheriam?).

I think it's too late now, unless it can be executed in a good way I suppose.

 

It's funny though, that like almost half the MON we now about end up being BA. Merean, Sheriam, Katerine =P

Though Silvianna redeemed them in her greatness. 

[Shard]

Yes RJ did address this issue as well, those forcefully turned would not feel any desire to GO back. It seems once they are turned, they are turned for good. It seems Verin saved herself from that fate by willingly joining and thus being able to reveal all of them. Who knew Verin would turn out to be like Snape in the end.

Psh! Verin makes what Snape did look like child's play  :P

Plus she's infinitely more awesome than the dude xP

 

Oh I agree what's more she did it with a smile on her face, unlike Mr. Sourpants. I was just showing a parallel of a character going into the lion's den prentending to work for the lion. It was interesting to see actual members of the BA not being nesscesirly evil.

 

Astus what do you mean by MON? If your refering to the Red Ajah we've had several good ones, two that I can remember being Prevara and Tarna who I think are in mortal peril at the BT. :(

[Astus]

MON = Mistress of Novices.

[Shard]

MON = Mistress of Novices.

 

Aah yeah the corrupters of youth. That is a prime place to put a BA. Glad that Verin facilitated the purge. Wish they had gotten Alvarin though.

[Astus]

MON = Mistress of Novices.

 

Aah yeah the corrupters of youth. That is a prime place to put a BA. Glad that Verin facilitated the purge. Wish they had gotten Alvarin though.

Alviarin always seems to be one step ahead (or she used to be). I preferred her when she wasn't crazy-like with thinking that Shaidar Haran was the DO and obssessing over it.

I was actually expecting (as I said in a post on the last page) her to have nabbed one of the BA hunters but it appears that it did not happen. I think she had time enough time. We could have seen the forceful turning then!

[Shard]

I am sure there has been forceful turnings, Sheriam may have been one. It's hard to say really as RJ pointed out that the person is basically the same only it's like a dark mirroring of them, everything is slanted towards the shadow. I wouldn't be surprised if Taim was a forced turned person, there may be some at the BT who are now force turned. We still have two books left to go.

[lillcheese]

I thought we got a Sheriam POV in this book, it sounded like she chose the Shadow thinking she wouldn't have to actually do any BAD stuff.  Her POV would only make sense to me if the subject of a 13/13 doesn't remember the event.

 

Do we know anything more about that?  I admit I haven't read the Guide.

[Astus]

Yeah, Sheriam's POV kinda disproved that. But her reasons seem so petty, "SO SHE COULD GET BACK THE PEOPLE WHO SLIGHTED HER!". Aren't you supposed to get over such crap when becoming Aes Sedai?

But what am I talking about? Half the Forsaken turned to the Shadow because of their jealousy of Lews Therin. Heh.

[Dert]

 

The reason does sound petty, however it does sound more belivable.  It's not the over-blown superevil, just a petty nastiness.  Kind of sounds more human.

[Astus]

I know it sounds more human but I thought the whole Aes Sedai system and training was supposed to beat that out of them. Aren't they supposed to be above such things?

Then again, Elaida became Aes Sedai so there's that...

[Dert]

 

I'd imagine that the training would weed out some people with major flaws in character.  However something that minor would probably go undetected.  All people have nasty thoughts.

 

Also look at the Aes Sedai as a whole, there's some really unpleasent characters.  Most of the Red ajah appear to have a real dislike for men, not just those who can channel.

 

So where the ideas seems so petty as to be trivial, its that little crack in the rock, just enough for the DO to exploit. Sheriam was probably not that evil, just that vindictivness got her caught up in something she couldn't control, a lot like Verin

[Stevros]

Do we know if Alanna is Black as Verin warns Perrin about her (tSR chapter 33) and seems to be sidestepping something when telling him, could this be she was trying to give him subtle warning without breaking her BA Oaths.

[griz]

Anybody else remember that note in Verin's porridge that Egwene saw.  "Wait."  That meant for her to wait to kill Egwene or did somebody know she was in the process of revealing?

[lillcheese]

The soup was for Egwene.  They used Verin's presence to get past the Red guards.

[Ilyena]

The soup was to tell Egwene to wait to be rescued, or "Help is coming" might have been more appropriate.

I'm totally on board for Alanna being BA, though I think Verin was warning Perrin about Alanna wanting to bond one of the three boys (I think she started thinking about Alanna's motives in Caemlyn after she bonded Rand).

My biggest reason for thinking Alanna is Black?

Imagine, Rand being bonded to the 3 women he loves, and one BA... this could end extremely well, or terribly.

 

>And Astus, Movember = Hilarious. The engineers at my school go nuts!

[fikkie77]

Alanna was not on Verin's list. I'm sure Verin checked Alanna, because she spent much time with her. Not being on Verin's list makes it almost certain that Alanna is NOT Black Ajah.

[Veronica MiHael]

Verin says to Egwene that she had more stuff to do and that they were being seen to by others in case she did not come back, (in case her plan with the oath rod did not work, and she would have to die)...That explains all the letters.  The letter to Mat included instructions for him to do something (and I'm quite sure Verin wouldn't have him doing anything a darkfriend would do).  She never did anything but try to help the Two Rivers clan.  Remember the compulsion she used to the sisters that swore to Rand after Dumai's Wells and Verin helping in the attack in the Two Rivers from whitecloaks and Trollocs?  Verin knows Tarmon Gaidon was near and she wanted to make sure the light had a better chance.  So she sent out those letters because whatever is in them has to be done no matter that she is dead, and went for the other rod.  The Oath Rod has already been checked out so she opted for plan B to get the word out about BA.  Next book we will start seeing what else she put into motion.  STARTING with MAT I hope.

[Stevros]

Alanna was not on Verin's list. I'm sure Verin checked Alanna, because she spent much time with her. Not being on Verin's list makes it almost certain that Alanna is NOT Black Ajah.

 

Are you sure about this or are you assuming that we would have been told if her name was on the list.

[bushleague]

Alanna was not on Verin's list. I'm sure Verin checked Alanna, because she spent much time with her. Not being on Verin's list makes it almost certain that Alanna is NOT Black Ajah.

 

Are you sure about this or are you assuming that we would have been told if her name was on the list.

 

I somewhat remember Egwene finding out Alanna bonding rand through Elayne somewhere between LoC and PoD.  I could be wrong but if she knew, she would have mentioned it in her PoV. 

 

So either she's not BA or Verin intentionally left her out (shes also a spy, some kind of special oath, etc.)

[Dovienya]

Why would it matter if they were turned involuntarily? As far as we know, there is no way to bring them back.

I dunno, at first I thought maybe it could be Healed - everything short of death and all that.

 

I didn't realize RJ specifically said they wouldn't want to change.  When I thought Sheriam had been turned against her will, I thought it would be nice if Nynaeve Healed her, or maybe that Wise One who was so good at Healing.

 

Would've been a nice ending for that storyline, but since she chose the Black of her own accord, I guess it doesn't matter, anyway.

[lillcheese]

I'm starting to rethink my earlier views on Sheriam being 13/13d. 

 

page 379:

At times, she wished she'd kept her mouth closed, not asked questions.  But she had, and here she was.

 

This sounds very similar to what happened to Verin - asking too many questions, getting caught.  Verin maybe assumed that they'd kill her if she refused.  Maybe that's not how the BA works - it might get suspicious for every sister asking too many questions to suddenly turn up dead.

 

Others in her association spoke of the glory and great honor of being alive at this time, but Sheriam didn't agree.  She'd joined to rise in White Tower politics, to have the power to punish those who spited her.  She'd never wanted to participate in some final reckoning with the Dragon Reborn, and she'd certainly never desired to have anything to do with the Chosen!

 

Her lack of enthusiasm for the cause might be another indication that it was never in her nature to begin with. 

 

Did RJ ever say whether a person remembers getting a 13/13 treatment?

[Shard]

I tried to post this earlier in response to force changing and RJ's quote:

 

According to RJ force turning can't be healed, at least not as easily as healing wounds as bad as severing. The person first has to want to go back to the light and due to the nature of force turning that is NOT very likely since they won't think of themselves as being different or changing.

 

Here is a direct quote that I got off of Theoryland:

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

[csarmi]

I think Egwene made a lot of mistakes in the end which might prove costly.

 

1) killing all the black ajah members instead of questioning was a bad idea. Should have used the oath rod (or tried to use the oath rod) on at least a few of them (the leaders, preferably). If they are not willing to unswear the oaths, maybe compel them to do so. She took the easy path.

 

2) she should have known that sisters were going to escape the rebel camp and will alert the tower ones for sure (if they can)

 

3) after the ceremony, she tells Silviana about the black with no warding up. Just what was she thinking? Was too late anyway, but still stupid.

 

I thought about some others, but forgot them by now.

 

ah yes:

 

4) the "I'm not a darkfriend" line is surely not enough and she should know better. Or someone should, at least. I think Mesaana could easily dodge that. She doesn't consider herself a darkfriend, now THAT's for sure