White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[analyticalkeys]

So, are you on to something?

 

RAFO.

[OHurley]

Ok, so this may find a better home in a Mesaana thread, but since she operates in the Tower, I think it's sort of relevant...

 

Anyway, I think the reason Egwene never found Mesaana in the Tower is because she's not actually living in the tower. I think that Mesaana is Amylia.

 

Description of Mesaana (based on what we know so far)

1. Blonde hair

2. Blue eyes

3. Bronze Dress

4. Academic/Researcher

5. Works from behind the scenes

 

Description of Amylia (found in KoD)

1. Blonde hair

2. Blue Eyes

3. Bronze Dress

4. Brown Ajah (academic/researcher)

5. Has stayed behind the scenes, and voluntarily went to work with the Sea Folk (well enough away from the WT to avoid detection when things began to heat up).

 

Presumably, if she was on a docked ship or a sea folk island, she could easily continue to travel to and from the WT.

[Declan]

Ok, so this may find a better home in a Mesaana thread, but since she operates in the Tower, I think it's sort of relevant...

 

Anyway, I think the reason Egwene never found Mesaana in the Tower is because she's not actually living in the tower. I think that Mesaana is Amylia.

 

Description of Mesaana (based on what we know so far)

1. Blonde hair

2. Blue eyes

3. Bronze Dress

4. Academic/Researcher

5. Works from behind the scenes

 

Description of Amylia (found in KoD)

1. Blonde hair

2. Blue Eyes

3. Bronze Dress

4. Brown Ajah (academic/researcher)

5. Has stayed behind the scenes, and voluntarily went to work with the Sea Folk (well enough away from the WT to avoid detection when things began to heat up).

 

Presumably, if she was on a docked ship or a sea folk island, she could easily continue to travel to and from the WT.

 

you should check out the last page of the Mesaana page and see what two guys over there worked out. you may find your answers or more questions there. (page 10)

[wumpus]

A little off topic, but omg I almost spit my coffee up this morning. Ever since I started reading the books I've always thought RJ took some inspiration for the Aes Sedai from the Catholic church, they just remind me of nuns. Regarding various discussions about the three oaths, I present this gem:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1127/1224259548746.html

 

THE MURPHY report outlines the church concept of "mental reservation", which allows churchmen to knowingly mislead people "without being guilty of lying".

 

Cardinal Desmond Connell explained the concept to the commission as follows:

 

"Well, the general teaching about mental reservation is that you are not permitted to tell a lie. On the other hand, you may be put in a position where you have to answer, and there may be circumstances in which you can use an ambiguous expression realising that the person who you are talking to will accept an untrue version of whatever it may be - permitting that to happen, not willing that it happened, that would be lying . . . So mental reservation is, in a sense, a way of answering without lying."

 

I actually remember being taught something similar in a Catholic elementary school. Slight nitpick, he's supposed to be referred to as Desmond Cardinal Connel, not Cardinal Desmond Connel.

[vasu619]

I liked the Egwene plot line for the majority and I found it interesting how Rand and Egwene each experienced what the other did to varying degrees. What I mean is Rand got leashed and Egwene got put in a box. While Rand's leashing was far more brief yet far more violent, Egwene's locking was a little less gruesome compared to Rand's and for a shorter period of time. Either way, I hope it gets them closer to understanding each others perspective and closer to a reconciliation.

 

Egwene's plot line seemed nice all the way up to the ending. The Seanchan attack was well written though it felt a little too Mary Sue to me. The most disapoointing part was how the WT re-unified. Now if Egwene was a still a captive within the WT, the Tower AS were simply raising a headstrong "novice" who thought she was Amyrlin to the actual Amyrlin Seat. But Egwene was rescued and rejoined the rebels which makes her a pretender to the Amyrlin Seat (in the eyes of the Tower AS); a crime which demands stilling.

 

On the other hand, Egwene; if she truly thought that she was already Amyrlin, should have gone through the Tower AS's ceremony as if it were just a ceremony. But she thinks to herself at the ending that she felt she "was completely the Amyrlin now" or something of the like, which she should not have if she truly believed Elaida was a usurper. I found this ending very disappointing.

 

Coming to Gawyn, does anybody else think the guy is under some kind of compulsion to believe Rand is evil? I mean seriously, a sensiible man, a general he has known since birth (Gareth Bryne), his own sister who is to be a queen and is not unintelligent, and the woman he loves have all been "taken in" by Rand's charisma while the great Gawyn Trakand knows the truth because he heard it from a peddler in Tar Valon? Wow.

[mossman87]

Ok, so this may find a better home in a Mesaana thread, but since she operates in the Tower, I think it's sort of relevant...

 

Anyway, I think the reason Egwene never found Mesaana in the Tower is because she's not actually living in the tower. I think that Mesaana is Amylia.

 

Description of Mesaana (based on what we know so far)

1. Blonde hair

2. Blue eyes

3. Bronze Dress

4. Academic/Researcher

5. Works from behind the scenes

 

Description of Amylia (found in KoD)

1. Blonde hair

2. Blue Eyes

3. Bronze Dress

4. Brown Ajah (academic/researcher)

5. Has stayed behind the scenes, and voluntarily went to work with the Sea Folk (well enough away from the WT to avoid detection when things began to heat up).

 

Presumably, if she was on a docked ship or a sea folk island, she could easily continue to travel to and from the WT.

 

 

BS confirmed she's still in the Tower,

[Sentinel78]

Coming to Gawyn, does anybody else think the guy is under some kind of compulsion to believe Rand is evil? I mean seriously, a sensiible man, a general he has known since birth (Gareth Bryne), his own sister who is to be a queen and is not unintelligent, and the woman he loves have all been "taken in" by Rand's charisma while the great Gawyn Trakand knows the truth because he heard it from a peddler in Tar Valon? Wow.

 

Ha, well said.  Almost enough to make you think that 'peddler' was Padan Fain, but I doubt it.  Old Mil Tesen doesn't sound too much like Fain. 

[Declan]

i dont think he is under compulsion. it would be too much. i think he is just acting like an idiot, and he had been starved for information at the time so he was ready to believe anything. i hope he comes around otherwise he should die because he is really annoying.

[Scraps]

I have a question re the Tower to anyone that can answer. Wasn't the tower made of the One Power and also of cuendillar as well? If it wasn't made of cuendillar, then isn't the one power damn strong to have resisted such a physical attack?

 

I was surprised to see that the to-raken were making holes in the tower's walls. Did this strike anyone as surprising?

[jemron]

Not at all surprising to me.  While the tower was made with help from the OP, it was not made into Cuendillar, and it is destructible.  Even Rand's sword (which was "Power wrought") was destroyed.

 

Just because the OP was used to make it, doesn't mean that it is indestructible.  It just means that maybe they used air to lift the blocks into place, and fire/water/air to "shape" some of the Tower into cool formations, etc...

[Blackhoof]

Egwene is awesome and super-cool.... minus her fanatical devotion to an overrated organisation, her desire to "guide" and "handle" Rand when he needs help and advice, and her hypocrisy.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Not at all surprising to me.  While the tower was made with help from the OP, it was not made into Cuendillar, and it is destructible.  Even Rand's sword (which was "Power wrought") was destroyed.

 

Just because the OP was used to make it, doesn't mean that it is indestructible.  It just means that maybe they used air to lift the blocks into place, and fire/water/air to "shape" some of the Tower into cool formations, etc...

 

When a building is made with the Power, it is indestructable using ALL means EXCEPT by using the Power.

[Declan]

i dont ever remember reading that anywhere. do you mind backing it with a quote from somehwere?

 

doesnt really make sense. You have to think of the White Tower being molded by the Power, not so much made. It's as if you did a better weld than any other technique or someone else could do. not so much making it indestructible though.

 

Ter'angreal are something completely different. dont bring them into it.

[Jemlin]

I have a question re the Tower to anyone that can answer. Wasn't the tower made of the One Power and also of cuendillar as well? If it wasn't made of cuendillar, then isn't the one power damn strong to have resisted such a physical attack?

 

I was surprised to see that the to-raken were making holes in the tower's walls. Did this strike anyone as surprising?

 

The WHite Tower was built many years after the Breaking began, when the spread out groups of female channelers came together to form a single organization, and then asked the still wandering Ogier to help build the city. 

 

So, on the following points, it wouldn't make sense for the White Tower, and respective city, to be built as Cuendillar.  Warded and OP assisted stone, yes...Indestructable Cuendillar, no:

 

1. For female Channelers, it takes a strong skill in Earth to be able to even semi-efficiently make Cuendillar. Furthermore, from what we learned about the Rebels in the camp, Cuendillar is made from Iron....which is not a plentiful material for a still recovering civilization to mine and produce.

 

2. Making Cuendillar takes lots of time and combining it with building would not make an efficient construction time frame.

 

3. Individual pieces of Iron will fuse together if touching when hit with the Cuendillar weave, so, they would either have had to form the blocks before placing (creating a non-seamless and then still vulnerable building), or performed the weave on fully constructed buildings/walls...which...is just completely unreasonable lol

 

4. We have no confirmation that the weave was even still remembered at the time of the building of the White Tower...atleast, by Aes Sedai in Randland.  Many weaves were lost, and this one probably was as well, especially since it had very little practical use.

 

 

As we saw from the TgS part of the Red sister disabling the Wards on the Guard Tower, most likely, the White Tower was built similarly.  The Aes Sedai probably assisted in placing stones, or reinforcing their strength, and then applied complex wards to the finished material to strengthen them and prevent erosion.  That would still make something vulnerable to power-wrought destruction from fire, weaves of explosive earth, lightening and more.

 

[FanoLan]

Have the readers been made aware of the construction time line for Tar Valon?  If the city walls were built concurrent with or prior to the actual Tower,  would the Tower itself have been warded or particularly strengthened against assault?  Two or three times, characters have made reference to Traveling changing the strategic nature of warfare and essentially rendering current defensive constructs irrelevant.  With no raken or to'raken indigenous to mainland Randland it would seem almost superfluous to make the Tower equally as impervious to attack as the walls.

[Declan]

Have the readers been made aware of the construction time line for Tar Valon?  If the city walls were built concurrent with or prior to the actual Tower,  would the Tower itself have been warded or particularly strengthened against assault?  Two or three times, characters have made reference to Traveling changing the strategic nature of warfare and essentially rendering current defensive constructs irrelevant.  With no raken or to'raken indigenous to mainland Randland it would seem almost superfluous to make the Tower equally as impervious to attack as the walls.

 

i am not sure what you mean by this, but i am going to try and answer it.

 

It definitely makes sense to still build a wall. Shadowspawn can't pass through gateways and a wall is what keeps them out. But the AS in the WT while the rebel camp was still outside was unaware of traveling so they thought that a wall could keep the rebels out as well.

 

plus you can only move so many troops through a gateway and you would need to be sure you are taking the troops to a good place to set up for a quick defense then assault.

[FanoLan]

Have the readers been made aware of the construction time line for Tar Valon?  If the city walls were built concurrent with or prior to the actual Tower,  would the Tower itself have been warded or particularly strengthened against assault?  Two or three times, characters have made reference to Traveling changing the strategic nature of warfare and essentially rendering current defensive constructs irrelevant.  With no raken or to'raken indigenous to mainland Randland it would seem almost superfluous to make the Tower equally as impervious to attack as the walls.

 

i am not sure what you mean by this, but i am going to try and answer it.

 

It definitely makes sense to still build a wall. Shadowspawn can't pass through gateways and a wall is what keeps them out. But the AS in the WT while the rebel camp was still outside was unaware of traveling so they thought that a wall could keep the rebels out as well.

 

plus you can only move so many troops through a gateway and you would need to be sure you are taking the troops to a good place to set up for a quick defense then assault.

 

I mean when Tar Valon was originally built post-breaking.  If the outer wall was built at the same time as the Tower it stands to figure that less effort was put into strengthening the Tower against attack.  Traveling had been lost, no flying creatures exist on Randland, so you probably wouldn't make the Tower as strong as the wall.

 

So when the damane start exploding holes in the Tower, it makes perfect sense that they are successful (similar to when Mat blew out a hole in the Stone).  Then the to'raken land on the edge of the hole and their passengers disembark to the inside.

 

[Jemlin]

Have the readers been made aware of the construction time line for Tar Valon?  If the city walls were built concurrent with or prior to the actual Tower,  would the Tower itself have been warded or particularly strengthened against assault?  Two or three times, characters have made reference to Traveling changing the strategic nature of warfare and essentially rendering current defensive constructs irrelevant.  With no raken or to'raken indigenous to mainland Randland it would seem almost superfluous to make the Tower equally as impervious to attack as the walls.

 

i am not sure what you mean by this, but i am going to try and answer it.

 

It definitely makes sense to still build a wall. Shadowspawn can't pass through gateways and a wall is what keeps them out. But the AS in the WT while the rebel camp was still outside was unaware of traveling so they thought that a wall could keep the rebels out as well.

 

plus you can only move so many troops through a gateway and you would need to be sure you are taking the troops to a good place to set up for a quick defense then assault.

 

I mean when Tar Valon was originally built post-breaking.  If the outer wall was built at the same time as the Tower it stands to figure that less effort was put into strengthening the Tower against attack.  Traveling had been lost, no flying creatures exist on Randland, so you probably wouldn't make the Tower as strong as the wall.

 

So when the damane start exploding holes in the Tower, it makes perfect sense that they are successful (similar to when Mat blew out a hole in the Stone).  Then the to'raken land on the edge of the hole and their passengers disembark to the inside.

 

 

Being that the Island didn't exist until after the breaking, and that the books hint that all of Tar Valon was built for the Aes Sedai, they were most likely built together, so yes, less support to Tower Itself and more to the Walls. After all, they would never have expected an attack fromthe skies from beasts that didn't even exist int he world at the time of the original Building

[mockeryjones]

just a comment on the writing (not the plot).  Did anyone else think that the speech egwene gave when the rebel aes sedai were returning the the tower just rang cheesy?  the whole legendary comment just seemed so much like it was trying to be all hipster.  the plot was awesome but the writing was just not up to par for most of this book.

[Blackhoof]

Most inspirational speeches in books or movies are cheesy or corny in my opinion. oh well.

[BladeDancer]

Now that Egwene is confirmed the Amyrlin of all Aes Sedai, the most powerful woman in the (non-Seanchan) world. I am looking forward to her next meeting with Rhuarc.

 

Apparently she still has great toh towards him for all the times she pretended to him that she was a full Aes Sedai rather than just Accepted. This period of deception extended for several months from the Stone of Tear, all through Rhuidean and trekking through the Waste, then into Cairhien for the period that Egwene was living in the Tents with the Wise Ones. Egwene was physically beaten by the Wise Ones to discharge her toh towards them for this offense before leaving for Salidar. Rhuarc was not there and so she still has significant toh towards him. I just imagine the looks of outrage on the faces of all those Aes Sedai if Rhuarc insists on beating her publicly! Gawyn would probably try to kill Rhuarc and get smacked down by Egwene who would fulfill her toh obligation! I hope the scene happens on screen and that Rhuarc will not just claim no toh is owed.  ;D

[b9anders]

just a comment on the writing (not the plot).  Did anyone else think that the speech egwene gave when the rebel aes sedai were returning the the tower just rang cheesy?  the whole legendary comment just seemed so much like it was trying to be all hipster.  the plot was awesome but the writing was just not up to par for most of this book.

 

it was a cheesy speech. Otherwise, I thought the writing was generally quite good.

[Durinax]

I think most speeches ring cheesy, but thats because it is usually a focal point in movies and books, so it has all been said over and over again.

[ed2funy]

Now that Egwene is confirmed the Amyrlin of all Aes Sedai, the most powerful woman in the (non-Seanchan) world. I am looking forward to her next meeting with Rhuarc.

 

Apparently she still has great toh towards him for all the times she pretended to him that she was a full Aes Sedai rather than just Accepted. This period of deception extended for several months from the Stone of Tear, all through Rhuidean and trekking through the Waste, then into Cairhien for the period that Egwene was living in the Tents with the Wise Ones. Egwene was physically beaten by the Wise Ones to discharge her toh towards them for this offense before leaving for Salidar. Rhuarc was not there and so she still has significant toh towards him. I just imagine the looks of outrage on the faces of all those Aes Sedai if Rhuarc insists on beating her publicly! Gawyn would probably try to kill Rhuarc and get smacked down by Egwene who would fulfill her toh obligation! I hope the scene happens on screen and that Rhuarc will not just claim no toh is owed.  ;D

 

lmao....No...I think Egwene will submit to it in private. She has honor (Aiel style), and Rhuarc would know she shouldn't be seen like that in public. He might declare that she has none anyways.

 

>.>

Or he might demand it. :P

[althoritis]

Ok, I looked through half of the thread, so forgive me (and point me to right direction) if it is discussed.

 

The war on Elaida was declared with the assumption (if not officially the reason) that Red Ajah set Logain up as the False Dragon. But once it comes forth that it was Siuan's plot - with Leanne's help, how is it going to be dealt with? I don't remember if Egwene was in on this but if she was, how would others tolerate a lie from Amyrlin? What would that do to Tower's unification?