Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Whiskeyob]

Why is it that everyone considers Rand the Champion of Light and Moridin The Champion of Dark.  I would like everyone to reread that last portion in the Prologue in Path of Daggers.  The Whole Patter is a Game, and Rand he is the center piece, Controllable by Either side.  2 Ways to win, 1 way being near impossible.  Each time the wheel starts a new rotation the game begins again.  Dark one Vs the Creator in a massive free for all.  Winner owns the world unless the next rotation.  Rand is just the main piece the key to victory.  This will explain the reason why the dark ones doesn't just order all the chosen to team and destory him like they most easily could have.  The catch is the normal why to win is to get the center piece to the opponent territory, therefore its not complete victory. It would be more like Imprisoning the other side until the next game can start.  The only way for complete victory would be the impossible win, the total annihilation of your opponent.

[Davemandred]

Hey. Used to post at WOTMANIA on occasion, but this is my first post here. This is an idea to bounce around. LTT told Rand his sealing failed because saidin touched the Dark One and he was able to taint the male half. Something has to touch the dark one. I have heard people say that Rand could use the True Power as a buffer.

 

I just don't think that will work. The True Power is what we are trying to seal away. It is the essence of the Dark One.

 

There is a power that is not saidar or saidin, that is also anathema to the Dark One. Rand used this power to cleanse saidin. This is the power of Mordeth... The essence of Shadar Logoth.

 

It is still alive in the person of Padan Fain. What if Padan Fain is the buffer, the thing that will touch the dark one, but can also be used as a seal or focus at the bore.

Whatcha think?

And is this in the right thread? This joint is a bit confusing. :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's not an unreasonable idea.

 

Rand's wounds are supposed to be a constant reminder of something.  Your idea may be it.

[Livia]

Doubtful Rand will kneel since that's false prophecy created by Ishy. We do know however he'll bind the Nine Moons since that IS prophecy. So either only he binds or somehow both happen despite other being not prophecy in a first place and therefore isn't of any interest.

 

Something just struck me right between the head.

We already know that there is such a thing as 'Dark Prophecy'. Prophecies made by the Dark which are still Prophecies - such as the one scrawled on the wall after the invasion of the Borderland castle (back in TGH I think it was). What's to stop the "Kneel before the Crystal Throne" being a dark prophecy? We know it was inserted by Ishy, but there's no reason why it couldn't have been a genuine prophecy of the Dark. We've been assuming that it must be false because it was made by Ishy, when we know that the Dark do have their own prophecies as well.

 

It could be sort of like the Dark Prophecy and the Light Prophecy in David Eddings' "Belgariad": some of what they both predicted did come true; but what happens in the final countdown is what counts.

 

I agree that Ishy could have inserted a real dark prophecy. What we're assuming is that the two are mutually exclusive: Wouldn't Rand bind the Crystal Throne to him by kneeling to it? He does, after all, think that they're good administrators after he sees Ebou Dar. He couldn't bow on behalf of Elayne or the other kingdoms that are still intact, but he could give his personal allegiance to Fortuona in exchange for a promise to bind no more marath-d'amane, for example.

 

It's not important that he lead the armies; Mat might do that better, anyway, and the DO won't be defeated by conventional warfare. Mat would be Aragorn buying Frodo time.

[papajon]

I dont know if this was brought up before, but i have a guess on the sword that recently surfaced that rand uses.

 

If my guess is correct the sword was last scene in the grea hunt in the posession of High Lord Turak.

 

Any other guesses?

 

[Swigaro]

I saw someone suggest that the sword was Brandon Sandersons's acknowledgement of being given a sword from RJ's collection. 

 

My first thought was that it was LTT's sword, considering the scabbard was covered with dragons.  The sword, I believe was found underwater, beneath a statue.  I don't think Turak's could have ended up there.

[Strykr017]

I dont know if this was brought up before, but i have a guess on the sword that recently surfaced that rand uses.

 

If my guess is correct the sword was last scene in the grea hunt in the posession of High Lord Turak.

 

Any other guesses?

 

 

Yeah, it couldn't really have been Turak's. It was unearthed beneath a statue. And why would Turak's blade have Dragons on it?

 

 

[Durinax]

I dont know if this was brought up before, but i have a guess on the sword that recently surfaced that rand uses.

 

If my guess is correct the sword was last scene in the grea hunt in the posession of High Lord Turak.

 

Any other guesses?

 

 

Yeah, it couldn't really have been Turak's. It was unearthed beneath a statue. And why would Turak's blade have Dragons on it?

Turak's sword was a heavy scimitar I believe, whereas rands new sword is like the one he got from tam, which is more like a katana

[tneva82]

I dont know if this was brought up before, but i have a guess on the sword that recently surfaced that rand uses.

 

If my guess is correct the sword was last scene in the grea hunt in the posession of High Lord Turak.

 

Any other guesses?

 

 

Wasn't it already confirmed Rand's new sword is Arthur Hawkwings Justice which Rand saw when Horn of Valere called dead heroes back at Falme?

[anotherfingolfin]

Did anyone else think the whole "Veins of Gold" chapter to be rather hokey? The introspection, the girding up of the emotional loins, the epiphany that LOVE is worth fighting for?

 

Really? I mean really, this is where we're headed? I felt the same reading that as I did at the end of BSG, when we learned that all was part of God's plan.

 

Am I out on a limb? Just wondering if anyone else thought it was too cheesy.

 

oh, i totally know what you mean, though this chapter was MUCH, MUCH better done than the lousy end to BSG. Hope and love aren't so bad, are they? And the chapter was well written- it could have just slipped and fallen into that pot of cheese, but didn't.

my only grievance was the CK destruction, but that is a whole different debate. As i stated earlier, as long as the epiphany doesn't result in him going back to being a completely soft nice guy who all of a sudden lets Aes Sedai boss him around, this is great point in the story.

[Durinax]

Did anyone else think the whole "Veins of Gold" chapter to be rather hokey? The introspection, the girding up of the emotional loins, the epiphany that LOVE is worth fighting for?

 

Really? I mean really, this is where we're headed? I felt the same reading that as I did at the end of BSG, when we learned that all was part of God's plan.

 

Am I out on a limb? Just wondering if anyone else thought it was too cheesy.

 

oh, i totally know what you mean, though this chapter was MUCH, MUCH better done than the lousy end to BSG. Hope and love aren't so bad, are they? And the chapter was well written- it could have just slipped and fallen into that pot of cheese, but didn't.

my only grievance was the CK destruction, but that is a whole different debate. As i stated earlier, as long as the epiphany doesn't result in him going back to being a completely soft nice guy who all of a sudden lets Aes Sedai boss him around, this is great point in the story.

I dont think that rand will go backwards in any way it just seems too late in the race for him to go back to a farm boy who gets pushed around by everyone. but now we meay see some better interaction between rand mat and perrin

[randfandom]

What's to stop the "Kneel before the Crystal Throne" being a dark prophecy? We know it was inserted by Ishy, but there's no reason why it couldn't have been a genuine prophecy of the Dark. We've been assuming that it must be false because it was made by Ishy, when we know that the Dark do have their own prophecies as well.

 

I am pretty sure it's a fake prophecy since the full text says (paraphrased) that the battle will be between the Seanchan empire and the dark forces, with the dragon nothing more than a tool - he'll fight the dark one "for the glory of the Empress". Conveniently, the Seanchan version has no mention of "he will bind the nine moons to him".

 

I wonder if Verin's letter may point to ways of proving to the Seanchan that their version is wrong. It makes sense to leave it with Mat in that case, considering his new married status.

[benr]

RJ says that there have been times that the Dragon goes over to the Dark, and the result is a draw.  The result is ALWAYS a draw.  Neither side ever wins definitively.

[NetSlider]

I think that the Veins of Gold was probably the most central chapter yet. It answers the question as to why even bother. RJ said himself that the wheel of time represents the world where the change is impossible because the time in non-linear and thus everything you do goes to "mark zero" at the next rotation of the wheel. The human progress is simply impossible at that point. And then argument from Moradin was pretty good, I mean, it would only take the DO to win once and everything is gone (anyone remembers traveling stones?). I thought myself many times what was the reason. For a while I thought the wheel will be broken and the serpent will be killed in order for humans to escape this never-ending cycle. But now it seems that there is a reason for the wheel to turn. Than again, maybe the wheel needs to be destroyed so the patterns is not reproduced over and over again but instead humans can have some "really and unlimited" progress.

[Ashamandragoran]

quick question,

 

did I miss something or did Alivia just disappear? if I remember correctly she was with Rand when Semi was captured, so how come she wasn't with Rand's gang in TGS?

[coteaz]

Did anyone else think the whole "Veins of Gold" chapter to be rather hokey? The introspection, the girding up of the emotional loins, the epiphany that LOVE is worth fighting for?

 

Really? I mean really, this is where we're headed? I felt the same reading that as I did at the end of BSG, when we learned that all was part of God's plan.

 

Am I out on a limb? Just wondering if anyone else thought it was too cheesy.

 

 

It wasn't just love, it was a second chance to do things right this time, and not leave things a mess like LTT did in the AOL.

[NetSlider]

RJ says that there have been times that the Dragon goes over to the Dark, and the result is a draw.  The result is ALWAYS a draw.  Neither side ever wins definitively.

where was this? i never heard of that.

[toss the dice]

Ok so i decided just to take an entire evening and try and figure things out: heres what i came up with. On the topic of Rand sealing the prison he is going to use the True Power to do it. Lews Therin started rambling at one point in the book that saidin was tainted because the dark one was able to touch it and "poison" it in a way. However the True Power stems from the Dark One himself! He wouldnt be able to taint himself and would not be able to have a counter strike this time when his prison was sealed.

 

The second thing is with the halo of darkness that surrounds Ishmael when he first fought Rand. After Rand channeled the True Power, it was mentioned several times that whenever someone looked at him sideways or at an angle, they saw a dark halo around him. Therefor i conclude that the halo comes from channeling the True Power. It wasnt that Ishmael became suddenly became more powerful, its just that he channeled so much of the True Power that his black aura became huge.

 

The third thing is rather weak in evidence so you can shoot this down as you wish. The Seanchen say that their own prophecy has to be fulfilled and Rand kneel to the crystal throne. Usually, when a new king is crowned, they kneel and accept the responsibility that is put on them before they take the throne. This could possibly refer to Rand kneeling before the crystal throne to become the Emperor of Seanchen! I know it sounds far fetched but thats what i came up with so far. Comment as you see fit.

[Second Chance]

Did anyone else think the whole "Veins of Gold" chapter to be rather hokey? The introspection, the girding up of the emotional loins, the epiphany that LOVE is worth fighting for?

 

Really? I mean really, this is where we're headed? I felt the same reading that as I did at the end of BSG, when we learned that all was part of God's plan.

 

Am I out on a limb? Just wondering if anyone else thought it was too cheesy.

 

 

It wasn't just love, it was a second chance to do things right this time, and not leave things a mess like LTT did in the AOL.

This is also why alot of people think Rand is done with Balefire, since it denies people their second chance (and subsequent chances) when their soul is reborn.

 

If I go and read the chapter in isolation now I might find it a bit hokey, but when I read it within the story I was thoroughly caught up. I think you can have moments like that as a writer if you've earned them with character and story up to that point.

[benr]

RJ says that there have been times that the Dragon goes over to the Dark, and the result is a draw.  The result is ALWAYS a draw.  Neither side ever wins definitively.

where was this? i never heard of that.

 

See reply # 418, from Bob T Dwarf

[Eleint]

This is also why alot of people think Rand is done with Balefire, since it denies people their second chance (and subsequent chances) when their soul is reborn.

 

Once again, Jordan has explicitly said that Balefire does not destroy a soul for all time.  The pattern of the age is peoples' lives.  When balefire hits them, their life ends before the balefire hit, so the Dark One cannot raise them.  He 'cannot reach out of time'.  People will still be reborn.  This is an -explicit- quote by Jordan.  There is no wiggle room.

[benr]

It occurs to me that Rand came very close to becoming Rand al'Thor Kinslayer.

[coteaz]

How?

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Balefire does not destroy souls. RJ said it, and it has been beaten to death here anyway. Machin Shin and Mashadar are the only things which have been speculated to completely destroy a soul, and that is, of course, only speculation.

 

Rand Al'Thor Kinslayer has a certain ring to it benr. He almost balefired Tam, coteaz, and LTT whispered "nothing we haven't done before"

 

Also, did anyone else find the passage in which LTT is arguing with Rand about 'the list' and its inconsistencies after Nathin's Barrow absolutely hilarious? It may be my twisted sense of humor, but this really cracked me up, more than 'elaborate aliases with backstories' for some reason. LTT has always been a source of amusement, amongst other things, for me, so perhaps that explains it, yet this was beyond mere amusement, to the level of really really laugh out loud funny.

[mrc1ark]

my only grievance was the CK destruction, but that is a whole different debate.

 

I asked BS about that tonight at the DC signing because it bugged me too.  Sanderson said Rand realized that he did not need the CK for the last battle.  BS also said that Rand was not at a point where he needed the CK for anything he wanted to do.  He said the sentence in a way that leads me to believe post epiphany Rand is much stronger than pre epiphany Rand though that is my interpretation of his sentence.

 

On the subject of the CK, BS said that the true power was not as strong as someone with the CK.  Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the one power through the CK.