Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[mogi67]

The dark one would want rand to get hooked on the true power, its a drug far more addictive than the one power and only the dark one can give it to you.

 

I bet the DO would rather, instead, just have Rand been captured by Semi, which was what she was going to do.  Once in captivity, he can do all he wants with the TP to Rand.

I agree. If Semi would have just opened a gateway immediately and took Rand to Shayol Ghul, then everything would have likely gone fine for the shadow.

[Mr Ares]

Just imagine the significance of that and just how impressive that power is: We all knew that the Tower was meant to be attacked by the Seanchan, so that meant Tuon would have never under any circumstance acquiesced to Rand's terms for alliance. It was just flat out written in stone and prophecy that she would have refused no matter what Rand did, because the Pattern had already written the outcome.

We knew it because of meta reasons ;-) Nothing in Randland says they WOULD be attacked.

Except we see them planning for it, and we know they place great importance in leashing marath'damane. Even without Egwene's Dream, an attack on the WT was always likely (Luckers even predicted that it would come via to'raken). Having Egwene have that Dream was just making it unmissable. Of course, Rand is not the WT. A truce with one needn't be considered a truce with the other. Even if Tuon had acquiesced to a ceasefire with Rand, they could still consider themselves at liberty to attack TV.

 

Why call it the True Power when it only comes from the DO.

That which we call the True Power, by any other name would be as sweet.

 

WEll i didint notice any mention of the Saa in Rands eyes and u get them right away after you channel the TP its only 1 in the beginning...

No, it takes time for saa to develop, not just a single use.

 

On Callandor:

7) Why didn't they ward/ buffer Callandor? The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing terangreal, angreal, and saangreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9895

That kills any crazy theories about it being deliberate.

[kevin-nivek]

dark one has always wanted to corrupt rand for whatever reason, ishamael could have killed rand effortlessly in the beginning but he didn't. If killing the dragon reborn is an insta win for the shadow he would of done it. So for whatever reason DO wants a corrupt rand, and forcing him to use the TP is a far closer step to doing that than controlling him with the male a'dam

[Bob T Dwarf]

dark one has always wanted to corrupt rand for whatever reason, ishamael could have killed rand effortlessly in the beginning but he didn't. If killing the dragon reborn is an insta win for the shadow he would of done it. So for whatever reason DO wants a corrupt rand, and forcing him to use the TP is a far closer step to doing that than controlling him with the male a'dam

 

Ummmm, how?  If he is trapped inside the Domination Band they can force him to do whatever the DO wants.  If he's free of the Comination Band he gets to choose what he does.

 

Domination Band = absolutely what the DO wants.  Anything else is at best a maybe.

[Durinax]

dark one has always wanted to corrupt rand for whatever reason, ishamael could have killed rand effortlessly in the beginning but he didn't. If killing the dragon reborn is an insta win for the shadow he would of done it. So for whatever reason DO wants a corrupt rand, and forcing him to use the TP is a far closer step to doing that than controlling him with the male a'dam

 

Ummmm, how?  If he is trapped inside the Domination Band they can force him to do whatever the DO wants.  If he's free of the Comination Band he gets to choose what he does.

 

Domination Band = absolutely what the DO wants.  Anything else is at best a maybe.

willing obedience is always better than forced obedience - (cant remember who said this)

 

[kasper11]

dark one has always wanted to corrupt rand for whatever reason, ishamael could have killed rand effortlessly in the beginning but he didn't. If killing the dragon reborn is an insta win for the shadow he would of done it. So for whatever reason DO wants a corrupt rand, and forcing him to use the TP is a far closer step to doing that than controlling him with the male a'dam

 

Ummmm, how?  If he is trapped inside the Domination Band they can force him to do whatever the DO wants.  If he's free of the Comination Band he gets to choose what he does.

 

Domination Band = absolutely what the DO wants.  Anything else is at best a maybe.

 

The DO wants to turn Rand.  The domination band may make him do things physically, but it is not really him doing it.

 

I am of the belief that for the DO to win, Rand has to willingly go dark.  

 

The DO has won battles, but is still trapped.  Remember back to TGH, the land Rand gets to by the portal stones.  The Trollocs won that war, and there is no Dragon to defeat the DO in that reality.  Yet the DO is still not free.  Winning wars isn't enough.  Consider also that during the AOL the bore was drilled into his prison, yet he still wasn't fully free.

 

Don't get me wrong, he will settle for victory on the battle fieldif it seems as though Rand is going to win (such as when Rand was cleansing the taint).  At that point he would enjoy whatever little freedom he could have until the dragon is reborn.  

 

BUT, I think in order to obtain full freedom he has to do it through Rand, the champion of the light.  And I don't think it is something that can be compelled, I think it is something that Rand needs to agree to.  

 

The dominion band won't help with this.  BUT, it could help you push Rand to the point of no return.  Which was very close to happening.

[ehubbard]

On Callandor:

 

7) Why didn't they ward/ buffer Callandor? The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing terangreal, angreal, and saangreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9895

 

A flaw?  dang there goes my one theory/post I've ever had... I'll still post it.. because I bothered to create a login just to post the idea I was so proud of..:)  and it also doesn't 100% rule my idea out..

 

The three become one  <-- there was a prophecy saying something that like that related to the sword in TGS.  Wouldn't it be neat if the "three" were not people.. but instead male/female/one power all used together?  all three?  This way the part that has to "touch" the darkone can be the one power...  and not taint the other two? 

 

Someone else probably has already posted this idea.. but there are just sooooo many posts to go through.. so if so.. sorry..:)

 

 

 

 

[Lambada]

You mean the True Power with Saidin and Saidar for the three becomes one I asssume. This theory has been posted twice in the thread, once by me.

[tneva82]

I completely agree with the above post--the memories are real (just as with Matt and the other folks in the Two Rivers), but the voice was never real.  It was a symptom of Rand's crazies.

 

Then again if Rand had his memories then he had also LTT's personality and voice stored in his mind. And therefore for all intents and purposes LTT WAS talking to him ;-)

[tneva82]

Anmways we know that around shayol gul theres a "thinness" in the pattern that allowed the bore to be drilled in the first place. Maybe rand will fix the pattern completely preventing the dark one from EVER being freed. The pattern was thin before the bore so we have to assume for whatever reason in the normal turnings of the wheel its always so. This would give rand a way to beat the dark one for good, prove moridin wrong, and make rands incarnation of the champion of light more important than the others.

 

Wheel stopping turning like that would be against mythos of series though. Plus not as poetic IMO as Rand doing what 3rd age dragon has always done.

[tneva82]

The True Power IMHO is actually the female and male powers together.  I believe the creator and the dark one use this power because they are not bound to the female/male sides of the power being deities in the book.

 

IMO problem with that is why would creator's power be such addictive and "sure way to fate worse than death" dangerous?

[tneva82]

I agree. If Semi would have just opened a gateway immediately and took Rand to Shayol Ghul, then everything would have likely gone fine for the shadow.

 

Except DO needs something other than Rand converted to DO to win. Remember there have been champpions of light who have gone over to DO's side and that's draw. Maybe this was more toward DO victory than getting rand to SG would have been?

[tneva82]

Except we see them planning for it, and we know they place great importance in leashing marath'damane. Even without Egwene's Dream, an attack on the WT was always likely (Luckers even predicted that it would come via to'raken). Having Egwene have that Dream was just making it unmissable. Of course, Rand is not the WT. A truce with one needn't be considered a truce with the other. Even if Tuon had acquiesced to a ceasefire with Rand, they could still consider themselves at liberty to attack TV..

 

Planning yes but wouldn't be first time plans are made in war which are disgarded. If truce would have been made would the seanchan really launched attack? Thus pissing Rand off big time and causing truce to break apart...

 

Rand wanted end of fighting against Seanchan. Them attacking WT wouldn't exactly end fighting. Escalate more like it.

[Galahad]

if you would remember that the TP is 10 times as addictive as Saidin so Rand was just lulled in to the seduction by the TP

 

Rand towards the end was getting all of Lewes Therin memory so after Rand loses the Voice of Lewes Therin will he keep the memory?

 

i have a weird theory Lewes said that the reason that saidin was tainted because they touched it to the prison and they had to but shouldn't but what if the reason that rand is supposed to reseal the dark one is because of his connection with Moridin allows him to use TP to touch the dark one seal as is needed without a counter stroke and truesource cleansed

 

Ps sorry for the spealing errors  

 

 

 

*sigh*  It was never Lt's voice.  It was a coping mechanism of Rands ego/subconcious.  He did not LOSE anything, he accepted what he really was.  SO yes, the memories will still be there.

 

I completely agree with the above post--the memories are real (just as with Matt and the other folks in the Two Rivers), but the voice was never real.  It was a symptom of Rand's crazies.

What exactly is the difference between a real voice in your head and a fake one then?

 

Obviously Lews Therin's personality is different from Rand's because of his experiences in life.

 

It wasn't a coping mechanism. Rand's subconscious didn't all of the sudden develop a new personality to deal with all of these new memories. With the memories of Lews Therin came his personality as well. It just took a while to integrate that into himself.

 

 

[ehubbard]

You mean the True Power with Saidin and Saidar for the three becomes one I asssume. This theory has been posted twice in the thread, once by me.

 

Yes the true power.. (I always do that)..  Great minds thing alike?  or Good ideas are often not unique?  I'll go check your posts out!

[ohaitharguiz]

if you would remember that the TP is 10 times as addictive as Saidin so Rand was just lulled in to the seduction by the TP

 

Rand towards the end was getting all of Lewes Therin memory so after Rand loses the Voice of Lewes Therin will he keep the memory?

 

i have a weird theory Lewes said that the reason that saidin was tainted because they touched it to the prison and they had to but shouldn't but what if the reason that rand is supposed to reseal the dark one is because of his connection with Moridin allows him to use TP to touch the dark one seal as is needed without a counter stroke and truesource cleansed

 

Ps sorry for the spealing errors  

 

 

 

*sigh*  It was never Lt's voice.  It was a coping mechanism of Rands ego/subconcious.  He did not LOSE anything, he accepted what he really was.  SO yes, the memories will still be there.

 

I completely agree with the above post--the memories are real (just as with Matt and the other folks in the Two Rivers), but the voice was never real.  It was a symptom of Rand's crazies.

What exactly is the difference between a real voice in your head and a fake one then?

 

Obviously Lews Therin's personality is different from Rand's because of his experiences in life.

 

It wasn't a coping mechanism. Rand's subconscious didn't all of the sudden develop a new personality to deal with all of these new memories. With the memories of Lews Therin came his personality as well. It just took a while to integrate that into himself.

 

 

 

What they are trying to say, is that there isn't actually another human being trying to speak with him. It is simply memories.

[ohaitharguiz]

if you would remember that the TP is 10 times as addictive as Saidin so Rand was just lulled in to the seduction by the TP

 

Rand towards the end was getting all of Lewes Therin memory so after Rand loses the Voice of Lewes Therin will he keep the memory?

 

i have a weird theory Lewes said that the reason that saidin was tainted because they touched it to the prison and they had to but shouldn't but what if the reason that rand is supposed to reseal the dark one is because of his connection with Moridin allows him to use TP to touch the dark one seal as is needed without a counter stroke and truesource cleansed

 

Ps sorry for the spealing errors  

 

 

 

*sigh*  It was never Lt's voice.  It was a coping mechanism of Rands ego/subconcious.  He did not LOSE anything, he accepted what he really was.  SO yes, the memories will still be there.

 

I completely agree with the above post--the memories are real (just as with Matt and the other folks in the Two Rivers), but the voice was never real.  It was a symptom of Rand's crazies.

What exactly is the difference between a real voice in your head and a fake one then?

 

Obviously Lews Therin's personality is different from Rand's because of his experiences in life.

 

It wasn't a coping mechanism. Rand's subconscious didn't all of the sudden develop a new personality to deal with all of these new memories. With the memories of Lews Therin came his personality as well. It just took a while to integrate that into himself.

 

 

 

What they are trying to say, is that there isn't actually another human being trying to speak with him. It is simply memories. Schizophrenics hear voices in their head, but there aren't actually people in their head speaking to them. They are fabrications from their own mind.

[DarkSage]

Hi everybody, first time poster long time lurker and I had a theory to throw out concerning Rand and what was going through his mind on top of Dragonmount(I haven't seen anything similar in my perusing of the forums so far, though it may also be that this is just common knowledge). It occured to me that what Rand intended to do with the CK while sitting atop there(the whole destroying the world so everyone can be free bit)was EXACTLY what the Dark One wanted and was his plot through the book since he had so far failed to kill or convert Rand. With the CK Rand could have destroyed the Wheel and the Pattern, which has always been the aim of the Shadow. It seems plausible to me that Rand obliterating the world is what Hopper was talking about when he told Perrin that they would only be able to Fight the Last Battle is SHadowkiller survived the storm.

 

If this is the case, this plot has now failed and the DO will be looking for more ways to stop Rand.

[lillcheese]

I agree. If Semi would have just opened a gateway immediately and took Rand to Shayol Ghul, then everything would have likely gone fine for the shadow.

 

Except DO needs something other than Rand converted to DO to win. Remember there have been champpions of light who have gone over to DO's side and that's draw. Maybe this was more toward DO victory than getting rand to SG would have been?

 

I'm pretty sure those were just lies Ishy told Rand to make him give up and turn.  Rand later realizes that he's never served the shadow.  Now he's at least glimpsed all his past lives & gotten the "love is all we need" message.  I don't think that jives with a previous incarnation going the way of teh ebil.

[Caar One-Hand]

Well since there is no Cadsuane or Min thread I'll put my post here.  Did a search in tGS spoiler board but seems like no one had even mentioned this.

 

What about Mins vision of Cadsuane teaching Rand and the Ashaman something very important?

 

I had always thought that this was Cadsuane's goal or getting Rand to "Laugh and Cry again".  But I don't see how this applies to the Ashaman at this point.  That's why I think Rand will (unfortunately) lift Cadsuane's exile.  She will have to be close to him (and also close to the Ashaman) to teach whatever it is she has to teach.

[DarkSage]

The asha'man are trained(as per rand's orders) to be nothing but emotionless weapons. If nothing else, Dumai's Wells showed us just WHAT they were capable of and they put it behind them despite commiting horrible acts there. Cadsuane may not have directly taught Rand laughter again, however, he relearned thi through Cadsuane's machinations, so while it may SEEM like it hasn't happened yet it has. Now that Rand can laugh again he has a lot of past mistakes to make up for, including teaching the Asha'man things other than how to Destroy. They needed to learn laughter and tears as much as Rand did, and thanks to Cadsuane sending Tam to Rand, they can begin to do that.

[tneva82]

[quote author=lillcheese link=topic=49550.msg1340777#msg1340777 date=1257195853}I'm pretty sure those were just lies Ishy told Rand to make him give up and turn.  Rand later realizes that he's never served the shadow.  Now he's at least glimpsed all his past lives & gotten the "love is all we need" message.  I don't think that jives with a previous incarnation going the way of teh ebil.

 

We have bit more reliable source than Ishy to go from however ;-) RJ himself! He's the one who also told that Champpion of Light going to DO's side counts as draw.

[Vermillion]

Is the dark aura around Rand the same thing that was around Ishy when he was wrapped in shadows.  It seemed like Rand was in the TP void constantly so that could explain the darkness.

[kevin-nivek]

Does every turning of the wheel work like this? That the lights champion half asses a seal on the bore, saidin is tainted, the dark ones generals and champion are trapped outside of time, then in the next coming of the dragon he fixes his other self's mistakes and seals the bore properly?

Or is this particular turning different due to lews therins failure

[G-Man]

There seems to be a lot of discussion on how Rand is going to seal the bore. One of the more popular solutions being sealing the DO up or destroying the DO with TP.

I love the idea, and while sealing him up with TP sounds a bit ludicrous, the idea of turning the TP back on to the DO sounds pretty cool.

 

But i don't think that the DO is going to be beaten that way.

 

Nor do i think that he will be sealed away by saidin or saidar or a mix of both.

 

Because no matter what you seal him up with, he is probably going to taint it like last breaking and will probably eventually overpower such a seal.

 

I don't think Rand can destroy the DO either. How can a mortal destroy a deity? In fact how can a deity be killed at all? And i think it has already been said that killing the dark one would probably destroy the pattern too.

 

BUT, that doesn't mean that the DO cannot be sealed back up. Obviously he can because there are numerous references that the wheel has been turning for a long time and has completed at least one full revolution. Which means that once upon a time there was a bore and someone or someones (presumably the last 3rd age dragon and his cohorts) sealed it up pretty damn good.

 

Now for many of you none of this is news. So i will get to my point.

 

First of all, what is the bore?

A: A hole/thinness in the pattern

 

This implies that before the bore, there was no bore.

No bore means no thinness of pattern and no hole in the pattern.

Which means that the "gap" was bridged by the pattern itself.

 

Much in the same way that a hole dug in the ground is simply the absence of the dirt in that location. No you *could* just put a blanket over it (analogous to what LTT did in AOL) but if you really didn't like having that whole in the backyard you would just fill it up with dirt.

 

And i think this is the key to sealing away the dark one. The solution isn't to try and destroy the dark one and you don't even have to seal him off per se. Just fill in the big holes in the pattern and voila, dark one is sealed away by default.

 

The next question is how to do this though...

Obviously the pattern itself has to be rewoven nice and strong, possibly where shayol ghul is.

But the "how" is the tricky part...