Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've gotta wonder what books people have been reading.

 

Lots of claims are made about all of the Forsaken.  What we see - what the author actually shows us - is a group of people who among them don't have two brain cells to rub together.  These people are all dumb as stumps.

 

Elaborate theories that depend entirely on how Graendal was just too smart to hang around to get balefired simply don't wash.  She wasn't smart.  She was sly.  She was conniving.  But, she wasn't smart, or she wouldn't have been one of the Forsaken to begin with.

 

When have we seen any Forsaken train anyone else?  When have we seen any of them share anything?  These people do not play well with others.  They don't share their toys, and they don't share any of their tricks.  There was no sidekick Aes Sedai to step-in and take the bullet for Graendal.

 

She was there, and now she isn't even atomic dust.

[lillcheese]

I've surprisingly heard no wondering's about Min's viewing of Nynaeve (early in the book) about Nyna weeping over a grave. I feel like it would too obviously be Lan... which leads to pondering, who could it be???!? Who, close to Nyna is going to die?!?

 

Since it flashed up again when Rand & Tam were talking, I thought it was going to be Tam's body.  I didn't think even CrazyRand would use BF on Tam.  I can't remember if we know what Rand was weaving during that confrontation though.

[Mr. Micawber]

Aw, man, Bob.

 

I love atomic dust. Why couldn't she at least be atomic dust?

[SinisterDeath]

You know, RJ was a Physicist, he know physics... I don't know how much he knew, but I suspect he was a very fond proponent of string theory.

 

But I believe right now, Greandal is now, nothing more than Schrödinger's Cat.

 

The guy having had compulsion used on him, The exact extent of it. (IT may have been heavy, but that doesn't mean she BLENDERED his brain.)

Who did it, ect.

 

But Schrödinger's Cat is exactly what we got here.

Until we have definite answer from BS/Harriet/DO/Morrodin, She is both Alive and Dead at the same time. ;)

 

Chances are, she's dead, Toast. Highly so. But I do think, That her death was just to easy/convienant, leading to doubt.

Had rand had a spyglass, saw grendal through the window, then balefired it, thered be virtually no contest that she was dead.

 

And Bob T Dwarf is wrong.

She is atomic dust.

RJ was no fool. Balefire leaves smoke behind. It doesn't truelly 'destroy'. If it did, there'd be no smoke. Things would simply disapear entirely. And even then, I dunno if that means it was 'destroyed'.

You can not Destroy or Create, you can only convert. ;)

[lillcheese]

I've gotta wonder what books people have been reading.

 

Lots of claims are made about all of the Forsaken.  What we see - what the author actually shows us - is a group of people who among them don't have two brain cells to rub together.  These people are all dumb as stumps.

 

Elaborate theories that depend entirely on how Graendal was just too smart to hang around to get balefired simply don't wash.  She wasn't smart.  She was sly.  She was conniving.  But, she wasn't smart, or she wouldn't have been one of the Forsaken to begin with.

 

When have we seen any Forsaken train anyone else?  When have we seen any of them share anything?  These people do not play well with others.  They don't share their toys, and they don't share any of their tricks.  Their was no sidekick Aes Sedai to step-in and take the bullet for Graendal.

 

She was there, and now she isn't even atomic dust.

 

My theory at least does not depend on Graendal's uber intelligence.  There are simply too many things we don't know about what the Shadow is doing during these events to be certain she is dead.  I wouldn't be terribly surprised if she is toast.  I really do expect she will show up again later.

 

We know at least one BA is still hanging with Rand.  I doubt it would be difficult for her or other darkfriends to find out and report that Rand is asking around about secluded palaces/manors out in the mountains.  He didn't seem to be particularly secretive about thinking Graendal was in the area and had taken Alsalam (sp?).  We don't know how much information leakage of Rand's plans are getting to Moridin through their link.  Any of these things could allow Moridin or Graendal to set up a trap for Rand, one that didn't require Graendal to actually serve as bait.  

 

I'm all for RAFO.  I'm against people claiming they definitively know she's dead.

[Mr. Micawber]

Sweet! That means Joe Al'Schmoe's Boots and More! Emporium can add Graendal Dust to their collection of atomized Forsaken!

 

Hi, I'm Joe Al'Schmoe, founder and owner of Joe Al'Schmoe's Boots and More! Emporium.

 

New from our Friends of the Dark Line!

 

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Then have we got a deal for YOU!

 

It's light, easily transportable, it's Chosen-in-a-can!

 

"Sorry, Mesaana, I know you said you'd cut off my fingers, but Be'lal here wants me to stay on vacation on Tremalking."

 

"What was that Demandred? I missed you, because I'm busy taking orders from Rah'vin and Graendal, right over here"

 

Now for a limited time only at 19.95 Marks (Andoran or Tar Valon Weight, you cheating bastards)*

 

Swing by Joe Al'Schmoe's Boots and More! Emporium today and we'll throw in your very own reintegration kit, complete with balefire rod, beloved foster father, and pre-fabricated enemy encampment!

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Offer not valid in Shayol Ghul

[Aiemond]

AS other people have said concerning Graendel: let's see a body. When FoH came out and it was like BLAME: Moiraines dead, some people probably were like "Well that's that. Plot lines usually kill off the teacher of the Hero in stories so that the Hero can learn a lesson, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah..." And you know what? She's alive. And the light's rescuing her. So let's just WAIT AND SEE or, as RJ (and Jason) liked to say, RAFO!!!

We can have 5,000 theories bouncing around but we're not the author. No metter what RJ and BS cooked up, have faith that it'll fit the story line and all will be good.

My 2 cents is that there was no confrontation. Graendel was badass enough that their SHOULD have been a confrontation. So I believe she's not dead.

I've surprisingly heard no wondering's about Min's viewing of Nynaeve (early in the book) about Nyna weeping over a grave. I feel like it would too obviously be Lan... which leads to pondering, who could it be???!? Who, close to Nyna is going to die?!?

 

What body would there be? Where is the body from Sammael? We see him get touched by Mashadar, but that is it. What about Rhavin and Be'lal? Neither of them had bodies, because they were balefired.

 

Just because we don't see the body does not mean she is not dead. The fact we see the compulsion gone, something she is the master of (and HAD to be done with saidar in this case), if enough. Who else could have done the compulsion? Semi is dead, Mesaana is not going to be a part of this, and I doubt Cyndane or Moggy came for a visit at this precise time.

 

You guys say that we didn't have a badass enough confrontation, but how many of the forsaken battles left you there thinking "this truly could not have just happened. Oh my god WTF". This one has far more impact than the rhavin, be'lal, sammael battle.

[SinisterDeath]

So, speaking of 'Dark Rand', we noticed that in bredan eben? (sp, suck at names, always have, I don't not apologizing for it either!)

That instead of both miraculous and disaters happening to 'balance out' the events, That as rand got 'darker', The balance Shifted.

 

Am I the only one who is expecting the 'new rand', in the Next Book, to shift that 'balance' the other direction? WE already saw how bad his 'dark rand' effect had on the food. Perhaps now people can actually 'eat'?

 

Perhaps he'll actually consider 'bowing' before the crystal throne, after allying the seanchan and bringing fotouna back to her country to make it possible. <_<

 

 

To Ilyena:

A body isn't required, simply a mention from the author, or the DO/Morroding/Shadar Haren that she is 'toast', that is all the evidence one needs without a body.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And Bob T Dwarf is wrong.

She is atomic dust.

RJ was no fool. Balefire leaves smoke behind. It doesn't truelly 'destroy'. If it did, there'd be no smoke. Things would simply disapear entirely. And even then, I dunno if that means it was 'destroyed'.

You can not Destroy or Create, you can only convert. ;)

 

Unless you collide matter and anti-matter.  That supposedly annihilates both in a burst of pure energy.

 

What we have here is existence and anti-existence.  Crank up the ole CK, even to half-power balefire and you've got a lot of anti-existence.  It's enough of a jolt that the whole Age Lace does a conga, but did you notice there was no actual blast, or physical shock/heat-wave?

 

Nature is supposed to abhor a vacuum, too, so where are the physical effects of creating a hole in reality where a large palace used to be?  Should at least be a huge thunderclap and associated wind as air rushes to fill that vacuum.

[Aiemond]

So, speaking of 'Dark Rand', we noticed that in bredan eben? (sp, suck at names, always have, I don't not apologizing for it either!)

That instead of both miraculous and disaters happening to 'balance out' the events, That as rand got 'darker', The balance Shifted.

 

Am I the only one who is expecting the 'new rand', in the Next Book, to shift that 'balance' the other direction? WE already saw how bad his 'dark rand' effect had on the food. Perhaps now people can actually 'eat'?

 

Perhaps he'll actually consider 'bowing' before the crystal throne, after allying the seanchan and bringing fotouna back to her country to make it possible. <_<

 

 

To Ilyena:

A body isn't required, simply a mention from the author, or the DO/Morroding/Shadar Haren that she is 'toast', that is all the evidence one needs without a body.

 

I personally think the extra spoiling was due to the TP use from rand and how he was connected to it.

[Crossroad]

Does anyone out there beside myself feels that all the woman in this series are bullies of one form or another.

 

It looks like Rand will be tired to another woman, after getting rid of one ball and chain (Cadsuand)he's going to have to agree to another (Empress Fortuona). Poor %^&*

 

If he ever gets out of this alive he will probably become a hermit, and not have anything to do with woman.

[Cirin]

Does anyone out there beside myself feels that all the woman in this series are bullies of one form or another.

 

It looks like Rand will be tired to another woman, after getting rid of one ball and chain (Cadsuand)he's going to have to agree to another (Empress Fortuona). Poor %^&*

 

If he ever gets out of this alive he will probably become a hermit, and not have anything to do with woman.

 

That would be very Arthurian - after a battle for his wife sees his friends killing each other, he returns home, almost dies, and then sails away to Avalon, leaving his wife behind to become a nun or kill herself, depending on the stories... but oh, wait... there were women on that boat that took Arthur away.  Even in Avalon, he will not find peace.  ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sign me up for a case of "Chosen-in-a-can."

 

I'm planning on betting "wrong" and laying the odds.  I wanna see how many times Bel'al can crap out on his first roll of the dice.

 

I could get RICH!

[Bloody-this-flaming-that!]

I loved the scene, where in my opinion, greandal died. I know many people may have wanted a more elaborate death but I feel like Sanderson was just keepin it real. If I had the worlds most powerful weapon and got solid intel on the location of a dangerous enemy, I'm nukin them swiftly from afar. Thats just war. If we had intel today on which cave Osama was in, we'd do the same thing. It wouldn't be a glorious, exciting end to his life, just the end.  And now the war goes on. Loved that scene! After taking out the fortress, I would have had Rand say, "Who else wants some bit#*@s?!" Of course this is why, thankfully, I'm not an author ;) BEST WOT BOOK EVER! There.....I said it.

[amplebossum]

And Bob T Dwarf is wrong.

She is atomic dust.

RJ was no fool. Balefire leaves smoke behind. It doesn't truelly 'destroy'. If it did, there'd be no smoke. Things would simply disapear entirely. And even then, I dunno if that means it was 'destroyed'.

You can not Destroy or Create, you can only convert. ;)

 

Unless you collide matter and anti-matter.  That supposedly annihilates both in a burst of pure energy.

 

What we have here is existence and anti-existence.  Crank up the ole CK, even to half-power balefire and you've got a lot of anti-existence.  It's enough of a jolt that the whole Age Lace does a conga, but did you notice there was no actual blast, or physical shock/heat-wave?

 

Nature is supposed to abhor a vacuum, too, so where are the physical effects of creating a hole in reality where a large palace used to be?  Should at least be a huge thunderclap and associated wind as air rushes to fill that vacuum.

 

That burst of pure energy being a Conversion.. Physics doesn't lie!!!!!

[Asuana]

This is my first post.  I finished the book a few days ago and after time to think on it, I’m beginning my slow re-read.  Loved the book!

 

My opinion on Rand’s destruction to the palace is that it is very similar to Egwene’s destroying the raken and to’raken.  She destroyed them knowing that there could possibly be captive AS on board.  Her justification was that death was better than what they would face as damane.  Rand’s justification was that death for those in the palace was better than living with the compulsion.

 

As far as did Graendal survive, for me it doesn’t really matter if she did or not.  I’m counting the days to the next book.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

And Bob T Dwarf is wrong.

She is atomic dust.

RJ was no fool. Balefire leaves smoke behind. It doesn't truelly 'destroy'. If it did, there'd be no smoke. Things would simply disapear entirely. And even then, I dunno if that means it was 'destroyed'.

You can not Destroy or Create, you can only convert. ;)

 

Unless you collide matter and anti-matter.  That supposedly annihilates both in a burst of pure energy.

 

What we have here is existence and anti-existence.  Crank up the ole CK, even to half-power balefire and you've got a lot of anti-existence.  It's enough of a jolt that the whole Age Lace does a conga, but did you notice there was no actual blast, or physical shock/heat-wave?

 

Nature is supposed to abhor a vacuum, too, so where are the physical effects of creating a hole in reality where a large palace used to be?  Should at least be a huge thunderclap and associated wind as air rushes to fill that vacuum.

 

That burst of pure energy being a Conversion.. Physics doesn't lie!!!!!

 

Well, the implication of your statement was that there was a residue.  With balefire there is no residue.  Sometimes a few shimmery sparkles that dissipate, but never any residue.

 

The servants don't even hafta come out and sweep or remove stains from the rug, you're just GONE.

 

... until your soul gets reborn in the normal fashion at some future point.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

The funny part is the predictions made abt Rands part in the book were wrong...Most of us (including me) thought tht Rand would either resolve the situation with the Seanchen or the Borderlanders...But tht didnt happen..So i think we will see quite a bit more of Rand in the next book too...unless the Borderlanders situation is resolved by Perrin which seems likely...

 

Whats up with the Borderlanders anyway??When they have a chance to meet with the DR finally, they screw it up by choosing a meeting place tht was bound to make him uneasy...It has to do something with the Aes Sedia..or maybe Demandred is involved..any thoughts??

[Dolphineus]

Nature is supposed to abhor a vacuum, too, so where are the physical effects of creating a hole in reality where a large palace used to be?  Should at least be a huge thunderclap and associated wind as air rushes to fill that vacuum.

 

There was, but you were looking for it at the wrong time.  This is balefire we are talking about ... that palace ceased to exist last week    What do you think caused that wind to blow in the wrong direction in chapter 1  :P

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Oh and one more thing...i read the book in one night so maybe i didtn pay attention but was it mentioned anywhere that the sword indeed was Justice??I think i remember Rand saying something abt it when he visited Falme but i cant recall.Can someone confirm it for me..i really need some sleep  ;D

[Mr. Micawber]

Am I the only one who is expecting the 'new rand', in the Next Book, to shift that 'balance' the other direction? WE already saw how bad his 'dark rand' effect had on the food. Perhaps now people can actually 'eat'?

 

Mort Sinistre, I think that'll happen, because we've seen a bunch of stuff indicating that the physical and mental state of one M. R. Al'Thor is connected to the state of the world.

 

Btw, Bob, existence and nonexistence still gives Joe Al'Schmoe an opening to sell his Chosen-in-a-can.

 

It'll just come with a disclaimer cautioning Friends of the Dark that their Chosen may or may not be in the can.

[Asuana]

Nature is supposed to abhor a vacuum, too, so where are the physical effects of creating a hole in reality where a large palace used to be?  Should at least be a huge thunderclap and associated wind as air rushes to fill that vacuum.

 

There was, but you were looking for it at the wrong time.  This is balefire we are talking about ... that palace ceased to exist last week    What do you think caused that wind to blow in the wrong direction in chapter 1  :P

 

Now that I'm re-reading the book, that makes alot of sense.  This is why I came here since I don't know anyone else who has read WoT.

[anotherfingolfin]

I would say, in a sad, pathetic attempt to head off more Graendal-spec, it is irrelevant right now whether Graendal survived.

 

What was relevant in TGS was that Rand Balefired a small city's worth of people with the most powerful sa'angreal ever.

 

The shock of this caused Nynaeve and Min to finally throw up their hands in disgust and go to Cadsuane. I don't think they ever completely trusted her, but rather, this event was absolutely necessary for Cadsuane and Sorilea to win their war against DarkRand/CrazyRand (I think I have done something to popularize the latter moniker, but I really think we ought to decide what we should call Rand from ACOS to the end of TGS, and *certainly* over the course of TGS; I move for CrazyRand from 7 to 11, changing over to DarkRand in this book).

 

They did so in large part because Rand had zero compunction about doing this.

 

This in turn brought Min close to Cadsuane, who I think is coming to realize that Min might be someone capable of actual, complex thought unlike the vast majority of people in Randland, as well as Nynaeve.

 

Without those girls, there's no way Cadsuane can find Tam, and without Tam, there's no breakdown.

 

Of course, that Rand managed reintegration came almost by accident, since Cadsuane's old habits die hard - witness for example her treatment of Tam, who becomes the first character to finally say "you know what? You're not a legend, you're a pathetic bully, as much as any man walking around getting into barfights" - and nearly resulted in the exact opposite, namely, the complete domination of Rand's persona by DarkRand.

 

this pretty much echoes a lot of what i feel. the point is NOT about Graendal's (apparent) death.

 

on a tactical level i totally agree with rand's decision. given that they were in all probability all just compelled husks, not human beings, i do not think he needs to be apologetic about his decision either. it's just his complete lack of hesitance in doing what he did, which is unsettling, IMHO, not the act itself.

 

Min gets the award for most improved character. i don't really remember her all that much, prior to KoD, so i was a bit of a Min hater prior to reading this book. Sure she had visions and gave him sex, but i didn't find her worthy of having a say in how he conducted his Dragon-life, so to speak. This book, she really shows her worth with her dedication to and results in her research. More importantly, i really liked the fact that the she realises that she is pretty useless, a liability even, in terms of defense from danger. also, her line to diffuse the situation when Nyn and Cads were bullying Tam really earned my respect- about how people CANNOT expect to win by trying to control Rand.

 

Nyn still disagrees with Rand, but this is an improvement from thinking he is a complete ignoramus who has no idea what is going on. About flaming time, i say.

 

Cadsusane makes me really want to hate her. Sure she is worthy of a lot of respect and regard for her experience and knowledge, but totally negates by bullying and being a control freak. You should command respect, and not demand it. She almost ruined everything with Tam and Rand. Really? Telling a father how to handle his own son? That is really, really presumptuous. I really, really hope she does not get a majority of the credit in the following books when Rand is nicer.

 

On that note, it will be pretty lame if Rand completely reverts to what he was like pre-LOC. All that he has endured has to leave some impact, and one epiphany should not change EVERYTHING. And criticized as he is, the truth is, he did need to harden some. I am not a soldier, but i would guess some degree of hardening and desensitization is unavoidable, to be able to go on doing what is needed. I just hope we see a happy balance between the two extremes.

 

[silent_spectre]

Ok, I haven't read ALL 70 pages but I ran through them quickly and came up with a few points that everyone seems to be interested in...a few people hit on the same nail I do, so I don't take any single credit...

 

On Callandor:  Why does everyone believe it to be flawed.  I know I see that written in the books, but it isn't a flaw.  It has been stated time and time again that the greatest works in the AoL was done with woman and men working together.  The wheel draws on BOTH powers to turn not just one.  Only a man can use it, but it requires two women to link with the man to keep him from burning himself out and that one of the women guide the flows.  It also magnifies the taint of the man's mind.  Sounds like a tool that requires trust... a topic often brought up by Rand

 

On the True Power:  Obviously it was said in the books that only the Forsaken could use this power, but upon Moridin being named Naeblis, he alone has access to it.  Rand and Moridin are linked, so that explains why Rand can access the TP.  In ch 22 rand sees a clouded face flash before his own as he reaches for the TP... and it is stated that several times in previous books that he has only to move a hair in any direction to "touch" Moridin when he grabs for saidin...

 

As to it being more powerful to the OP, I do not believe this to be the case... I believe that it is more addictive and seductive than the OP.  We see time and again the "high" that channellers get from holding the OP, but here we get a description of what it is like to hold the TP.  Rand compares it to holding the OP while using the Choeden Kal.  Ecstasy and pain...  We have seen Rand hold onto consciousness and fight through wounds and fatigue with just the OP...now magnify that  by 10...

 

On Graendal:  I believe her to be dead.  There is no precedent for either Rand or Lews Therin to do what was done to her.  Rand wouldn't kill a woman, Graendal would probably know about that particular weakness.  The use of balefire in general had been discontinued by both sides in the AoL, even if it was used a bit in this new age... it was never used like THAT, so how could she know he was even capable of this act. The last time we see Graendal she had met with Moridin and told to keep Rand from achieving peace in Arad Doman... she was working on that still...why would she leave or expect this particular attack?

 

On food spoilage: It says in La Morte D'Arthur that the land and the dragon are as one... I believe that Jordan also mentioned this in one of the books, but I may be amiss... but the Arthurian legends area a huge influence on this series... also it seems as Rand sinks deeper and darker that more bad things happen without the good to balance them out... I know that the Forsaken see this as the Dark One's touch... but I believe it is because of Rand's downturn.  A good example was in this book where when he is leaving Arad Doman  the dockmaster arrives to say that all the food has spoiled, this after Rand balefired Graendal's keep.  We also see the first sunlight in the entire book after Rand has his self-realization in chapter 50.

 

 

[Mr. Micawber]

@anotherfingolfin

 

He needed to get stronger, not harder.

 

Who he needs to resemble is not Rand preLOC, but rather Rhuarc, Bael, Bashere, Bryne, Ituralde, Lan, and Tam.

 

Indeed, he needs to resemble the Lews Therin of the First War (as opposed to what the man became after the Bore was sealed).

 

In a lot of ways, Rand's "hardness" was something immature and a way to avoid taking responsibility - as Cadsuane herself mentioned, before DarkRand, CrazyRand was essentially a boy with a good heart who was being stubborn beyond any one in history. Rand was mistaking the appearance of strength and responsibility for the substance.

 

He was hard and obsessive rather than strong and responsible. And I completely understand why this happened.

 

But you know what's a really good comparison? Mat.

 

Mat and Rand have essentially been on opposite trajectories since the beginning. Mat started out as this callow youth who buried any sense of responsibility. Rand was always the nice guy you could count on.

 

Yet they've gone in opposite directions.

 

What Mat has demonstrated increasingly since LOC is that he has *adapted* to *his* memories in a way that Rand simply failed to do with Lews Therin's. I think you could rightly argue that part of why Rand couldn't do this was because of the Taint.

 

But not all.

 

Mat's become the most responsible of the three ta'veren; moreover, he's become the guy that people genuinely *want* to follow. In Perrin's defense, he's realized how awful he became during the pursuit of Fail. But Perrin's ta'verenness has always been geared towards getting people to follow him. Mat's is designed in an entirely different manner, and the reason people follow Mat is *not* because he's ta'veren, but because he has actually taken those other men's memories and turned them into a great strength.

 

He's relied on them without losing sight of who *Mat Cauthon* is inside. I think that's the key difference. Unlike Rand and Perrin, Mat was never the goodie two shoes boy. He was the troublemaker. But it is just this devil may care attitude that allowed him to adapt. Rather than letting it get to him, he simply allowed his pre-existing but under-used sense of responsibility to come to the fore.

 

Rand actively tried to make himself harder. Mat, kicking and screaming, had to be thrust into responsibility, but then his underlying decency left him no choice but to rely on those memories so he wouldn't get killed.

 

It's pretty ironic; Rand and Perrin think of their superpowers in the kind of "great power, great responsibility" way, while Mat thinks "I'm only in this to save my skin". Yet the former two allow themselves to lose sight of their responsibility for personal reasons, while the latter turns into Han Solo. Always griping, but the one guy you can always count on in a pinch.

 

@silent-spectre

 

I had forgotten where the Land and King are One came from. It's definitely in Morte d'Arthur, and it's certainly in this story.

 

See, I think that there are only two possible solutions for the food supply.

 

One is that now Rand has healed himself, maybe things will get better.

 

The other requires a little background. In the AoL, the Lightforces managed to supply food for its armies. How? Well, in TSR, we found out.

 

The Ogier and the Aiel Sang plants to prevent them from being hurt.

 

Perhaps what is needed is not One Power preservation wards, but the Ogier and perhaps the Tinkers rediscovering how to Sing for crops.

 

There's pretty much no other solution I can think of.