Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[Mr. Micawber]

My main comments and replies to various posts....

 

-  Graendal is definitely dead.

-  the old Rand is back.  the Dragon himself.

-  Olver is Gaidal Cain and will have a role during Operation Ghenji

-  The Gholam will FEAST in Caemlyn.

-  Lan will have gathered the Remnants of Malkier and the Free Borderland Peasants at Tarwin's Gap.  

-  Rand will feel Egwene's anger after she finds out Fortuona ordered the attack on the White Tower after their failed parley.  I thought that parley went fairly well considering Nyn's outbursts.  I think Rand will bow next time he meets her, as he has Returned to the Light.

-  Beggar Prophecy is only half over...  When Rand comes down off Dragonmount, he's going to have to beg here and there to those that he's crossed in the past.  He won't be literally BEGGING, but he will be doing some apologizing and coming around to various people...  Min, Cadsuane, the Maidens, the Borderlanders, TAM, Fortuona...  etc.

 

I wonder if we've seen the end of the BloodKnives??

 

The bowing before the Crystal Throne was explicitly something designed by Elan Morin.

 

As Moerad, the advisor to Hawkwing, he deliberately corrupted every single copy of the prophecies that went across the ocean with Luthair.

 

This was done to ensure that if Luthair united the Seanchan, his descendants would come into conflict with the Dragon Reborn, because they think that he needs to bow before the Crystal Throne. As Elan Morin is brilliant, this plan worked entirely as designed.

 

*NO PROPHECIES SAVE THE ONES THAT WENT ACROSS THE ARYTH OCEAN MENTION THE CRYSTAL THRONE*

 

What the Prophecies *DO* say is that Rand needs to "bind the Nine Moons to him"

 

He cannot bind the Nine Moons and bow down to the Empress. This is an inherent contradiction designed by our philosopher friend.

[dflinn]

Ok, so Reading the Commentary pg 743

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

Min and Cad assume this blade of light is Callandor, and we seem to agree. But maybe not because Veins of Gold pg 758.

  "Rand closed his eyes, perched above a drop that plummeted thousands of feet downward, in the middle of a tempest of icy wind. Through his eyelids, he could sense the blazing light of the access key."

Of course this is the scene when he envelops LTT (and possibly the aspect of Moridin running around in his head as well).

 

ending with Bathed in Light pg 766

" At the end of time, WHEN THE MANY BECOME ONE, the last storm shall gather its angry winds to destroy a land already dying. And at its center, the blind man shall stand upon his own grave. There he shall see again, and weep for what has been wrought."

Now considering he is standing on his own grave (dragonmount) and thats where he has the epihany I guess this prophecy has been fulfilled.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

If you go back a few pages you can see I said the whole Graendal thing is easier to believe if you think of her as Hannibal Lecter. Also, I think the idea that the compulsion disappeared as she fled through a gateway is more feasible than her 'setting the weave so it dissolved after it was delved' or whatever was proposed. If she held the web instead of knotting it, as she did with Landane and Moggy, when she fled to where ever she might have it would become useless due to the distance, and Nyn would say the same thing, that it is gone. Of course, her being balefired could cause the same result, so we will not know until BS confirms it or the next book(s) come(s) out.

 

As to Moridin, for anyone who is interested, Mr Micawber and I had an interesting discussion about him, and Demandred to an extent, last night/this morning. Look around page 62/63.

 

Callandor is flawed, Treejoe and Lord of the Morning, not only in magnifying the taint but also because it allows you to draw enough of the power to hurt yourself, unlike other sa'angreal, even the choedan kal, which have a buffer against that. Whether or not this was done purposely so the Dragon would be playing Russian Roulette by using it without women is a matter for debate, (not here or now lol) but I don't think it was made for the true power.

 

I think the 4 remaining Bloodknives will be causing all kinds of baaaaaad things in the tower, but I wonder what will happen when they die? They will probably jump into the river or something so not to give away the secret of the ring ter'angreal, but who knows. I also said last night it makes me wonder what other ter'angreal the Seanchan have. I am only repeating it because it was 7 pages ago, and not everyone reads the whole thread like myself and most other people, before posting.

 

Also, when someone is posting, they are giving their opinion, so obviously it is acceptable for them to say "this happened" because they think it did, and they are arguing for the fact that it did. As far as I am concerned, the beggar  part was fulfilled in Ebou Dar, and he did have a staff, which he used to conceal his height. He sat on his own grave, was blind (to what he was becoming, as well as what needed to be done), and then saw again, (metaphorically speaking) so it is a reasonable argument.

 

Starting my third reread tonight, so will post stuff as it comes to me. The second and third are always more thought provoking, as I get ideas on the first read, but do not want to stop to think them through, so I file them away and begin to really consider them the second time around, and often perfect them on the third and fourth, so I am rather excited.

[Dhaell]

I found Rand's seemingly random visit to Altara toward the end of the book interesting. He noted that people seemed happy, like they didn't know that the Last Battle was even coming. Does this mean that they aren't having problems with the pattern like non-Seanchan territories are? Is this due to order/lack of chaos? The Seanchan seem to have things running very smoothly. If, say, some Seanchan were brought in to deal with some of the chaotic cities, maybe that city in Arad Doman, could the disruptions in the pattern, rotting, etc. be halted or even reversed? After seeing this, might he actually kneel to Fortuona for the sake of the pattern? There's always that sticking point with the channeling women but Fortuona can likely channel herself...

 

She has the ability to learn but as she said herself, she chooses not to.

[Mr. Dragon]

She has the ability to learn but as she said herself, she chooses not to.

 

Yeah, the AS would have said something if she was able to channel.

[Graendal probably did it]

I have been trying really hard to not read this thread, but I can't help myself. I am listening to the audiobook at work and am currently on chapter 7. Thanks for all your posts, they have been very enlightening.

 

I have been reading WOT since 1994 and have been reading usenet and the forums since 1995 but mostly just lurk. I must have read or listened to the series about 5 times over the years. So I am saying thanks to all you guys for your discussions over the years.

 

[dflinn]

The compulsion had to be balefired away. It has been repeated numerous times that level of compulsion cant be removed without completely impairing the victim. So I would say it is very safe to assume the person who used compulsion on the guy was balefired. Now was the person who used the compulsion actually Graendal? I would say yes. I believe she is toast.

[Beren]

The compulsion had to be balefired away. It has been repeated numerous times that level of compulsion cant be removed without completely impairing the victim. So I would say it is very safe to assume the person who used compulsion on the guy was balefired. Now was the person who used the compulsion actually Graendal? I would say yes. I believe she is toast.

 

The Compulsion could have been held rather than tied off which makes it completely different. Think back to when Verin uses Compulsion. The only time it is tied off is if the person gets orders for the future. If you need them to do something nearby then you can hold the threads and it does not "set in" like when it is tied off.

 

I don't think Graendal is gone.

 

 

 

On the epigram:

 

At the end of time,

when the many become one,

the last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

 

I still think all the worlds are beginning to merge as I stated before even seeing this based on the ghosts walking. I could be very wrong, but what else would this be talking about?

 

 

On Verin:

Sigh... I knew I should have stopped reading this thread until I read the book. I am just going to pretend I didn't read that so I can be surprised when it comes up in the book.

 

Has this been answered yet?  ???

 

It seems to refer to Rand merging with the memories of all his previous lives.  I'm quite excited to see how Rand's going to be in ToM mentally and emotionally. 

Yes, after a re-read, I took back this statement. I do agree now that it is the memories of Rand's previous lives all being put into him. I would agree with the general consensus that the reintegration is the fulfilling of the prophecy at the end of the book.

[AcuWill]

Duhara is in Caemlyn, attempting to get Elayne to accept her as her advisor. Think Duhara will attempt to kill Elayne and release the few BA that Elayne captured in KoD?

 

 

 

I bet you a lot of money Duhara escapes to the Black Tower when Egwene talks to Elayne, and this is the event that causes Egwene to find out that Taim is a very bad boy.

 

This will lead to Rand facing the Amyrlin Seat and knowing her anger. Specifically, that he had better take care of the Asha'man, or she will.

At this point the White Towr can barely hold itself together and will ahve huge growing pains with regard to recombining the Rebels and the Tower proper.  Add to thist he affect of the Seanchan attack, there will be no "taking care of the Black Tower" by Egwene anytime soon. Even if the White Tower was at full strength and the entire Tower turned out at once, I doubt they would be able to impose their will upon the Black Tower.

[DemandredFO]

If the last Aes Sedai were dying she'd still be trying to manipulate.  Just because the white Tower is a bit of a mess don't assume that they'll stop meddling.  Granted, Rand should have destroyed Taim a while ago but I wouldn't put anything past Aes Sedai.

[Dorkfiend]

I bought the book Tuesday night and finished by Wednesday morning.  I know I missed the big spoilers craze already, but if anyone still wants them, here's a character-by-character synopsis.

 

Rand:  Acts crazy.  And has been spending too much time bending light in the Warbreaker universe.

Mat:  Complains about gurls and pays a brief visit to some other (literary) universe.  Stephen King, call your office.

Perrin:  Dithers and moans.

Nynave:  Yanks her braid while calling Mat all kinds of startling things.

Egwene:  Acts uppity to her elders.  And is guilty of forgery.

Elayne:  Acts petulant, sniffs, raises her chin, folds her arms under her breasts, takes baths, and changes clothes a lot.  Probably.

Avienda:  Drips.

Min:  Needs a chir'o'practor or similar ter'angreal.

Lan:  Is going the distance.  He's going for SPEED.  He's all alone (ALL ALONE) all alone in his time of need.

Moiraine:  Wouldn't even *recognize* Siuan.

Moridin:  Takes a nap.

Semirhage:  Eats beans in an unusual way.

Graendal:  Gets punched in the face.

Demandred:  Explains everything, provided you can decipher everything from three extremely uninformative sentences of four words each.

Cadsuane:  Acts condescending.  For everyone else's good, of course.

Thom:  Gets fewer lines than Talmanes, of all people.

Juilin:  Gets fewer lines than Thom.

Talmanes:  Gets a new pipe and a personality transplant.

Jain Bloody Farstrider:  Is Thom's brother, or his servant, or maybe both.

Bayle Domon:  Mumbles once.

Loial:  Is aka Ogier Not Even Mentioned In This Book.

Beonin, Leane, Logain, Taim, Mattin Steppaneos, and many other characters-of-interest:  Who the hell knows?  Dammit, I *enjoyed* all that detail!!!

Lews Therin Telamon:  Likes Weiramon.  Go figure.

Sheriam:  Gets a haircut.

Siuan:  Tells fishin' stories.

Gareth Bryne:  Sleeps with his sword.

Rodel Ituralde:  Can't go home.

Davram Bashere:  Can't either.

Lord Agelmere:  Can.  BUT WILL HE?

Hurin:  Is still a dork.

Tam al'Thor:  Is a very bad actor.  The critics rate him "half a balefire".

Berelain:  Doesn't sleep with Perrin.

Faile:  Doesn't sleep.

Tuon:  Dies.  May she live forever.

Laras:  Ain't a darkfriend.

Elaida:  Is made to Suffa.

Gawyn:  Annoys Egwene almost as much as he annoys me.

Shemerin:  Finds an exciting new occupation.

Aldrin:  Stuns me that so many people actually remember where we first met him.  I only *thought* I was a wot maniac!

The BA Hunters:  Pities da fools.

Hopper:  Hops.  Really.

Bela:  Lives!  'Nuff said.

 

Verin... Alas, Verin can't be written off so quickly.

Verin:

* reminds us that in the Old Tongue, you can't "verb" any noun, nor can you "noun" any verb.

* reminds us that in the Old Tongue, "ta'veren" means "bloody huge plot contrivance".

* should have her own Old Tongue word:  "O'Ran'Jah'Jah".

* is not only a BA, but is also a BA.

* woke my wife up so that I could gloat that what she thought was my most wild-assed theory was 100% right.

 

And finally....

 

Asmodean:  Is dead.  RAFO.

 

By the first Oath, you know my words to be true, from one who lived it.

 

Not the best book in the series, but far from the worst.  Some of the scenes were fabulous.  A scant few felt completely out of place.  A lot of the subtleties we know and love are absent except in a scant few places I'm pretty sure were RJ-penned.  I loved BS's take on Mat's sharper, wittier character.  I really didn't like BS's take on Verin's character, especially when she was talking to Mat.

 

All in all, BS has done RJ Justice.  And speaking of Justice, nice sword.

 

[algspkr]

The compulsion had to be balefired away. It has been repeated numerous times that level of compulsion cant be removed without completely impairing the victim. So I would say it is very safe to assume the person who used compulsion on the guy was balefired. Now was the person who used the compulsion actually Graendal? I would say yes. I believe she is toast.

 

They state that the level of compulsion used on Rand's messenger was different from what was used on the cook.  I also doubt that Gendeal would have a problem disguising the amount of compulsion used as she is described as having one of the strongest talents for it.

 

The Compulsion could have been held rather than tied off which makes it completely different. Think back to when Verin uses Compulsion. The only time it is tied off is if the person gets orders for the future. If you need them to do something nearby then you can hold the threads and it does not "set in" like when it is tied off.

 

Verin has never used compulsion, and there is no evidence one was or another as to weather tying it off or not has an impact on its long term effects other than when it is tied off it will continue to compel its victim. 

 

As to the encounter Grendeal had with Cyndine and Mohgidean I doubt that she was using enough compulsion to permanently damage them.

[Beren]

 

Verin has never used compulsion, and there is no evidence one was or another as to weather tying it off or not has an impact on its long term effects other than when it is tied off it will continue to compel its victim. 

 

Uh, Verin stuck Compulsion in Elza's head. Semirhage was told to remove it. Read your books.

[richnewton82]

.

[Trutino]

She has the ability to learn but as she said herself, she chooses not to.

 

Yeah, the AS would have said something if she was able to channel.

 

Ok, main point of the post was about Ebou Dar and how the pattern doesn't seem to be unraveling there due to the order the Seanchan have created. Rand conveniently saw that. I don't know what he'll do with this info, but I have to believe that it will come up again.

[richnewton82]

.

[richnewton82]

.

[GlowingThread]

I have a wild, crazy theory... Alivia helps rand die, right? Rand and moridin are conected through their balefires connecting. so far so good? Through that connection Rand is able to draw upon the True power. Halima/Aran'gar is able to draw Sadin in a woman's body. Alivia is the strongest female Channeler alive. There is a prophesy that "3 become 1". It is theorised that it might be necessary for both Sadar and Sadin (and the True power) to be used in conjuction to do the nasty to the DO. Could Rand Connect to Alivia through yet another connection of balefires? Callandor needs a buffer (of possibly 1/2 sources of channeling). Like a linked trio could Rand draw through both Alivia AND Moridin to form a patch/destroy over DO's prison through a BIG, nasty sword of light created by combined OP wrapped in TP (or vice versa)to skewer said DO? Could happen, or could be completely crazy rant...

[richnewton82]

.

 

[GlowingThread]

Yeah that is interesting. I feel that Fain does have something more to do. I was trying to integrate the prophesy. Everybody uses WAAAYYY too much Aes Sedai speak as the truth. Cadsuane said this, Verin said that... so far MOST of the guesses that Aes Sedai have made have been a complete fudgeup. Only the prophesies have been accurate. Plus in my defense the One Power, The power wich has the Creator as the source, is used indiscriminately by the forsaken/BA to help destroy the entire loom an wheel through Chaos, so why cant the TP be used conversely? Saying that it cannot DEFINITELY be used as such, would be unfounded. I also think that the ending may have something to do with order and the will of men. That at least would be my defense as RJ/BA have always used AS to thow the readers on red herrings. In addition the TP and the taint are different in the way that the OP and part of the creator himself would be different. One is part of the entity, the other is the tool which the entity uses.

[The Lord of Morning]

since the prophecy says the west will bind to the south, It sounds like the seanchen will get arad domain and all the lands rand was trying to save but abandoned to famine.  They give stability and peace where rand can barely give a semblence of order, he has aiel cops, saldeans in tear, etc etc. . makes sense but i wanna see how tuon will agree not to go after the rest of randland.  maybe mat will have a good influence on her, especially after she starts channeling and have to give up the damane. 

 

padan fain better come in handy,  he has lasted all the books, we need a good finale!

 

we know elayne has twins, and aviendha will have quadruplets?  how many will Min have?!

[Astus]

I have to say that I really enjoyed this book.

I felt like I was getting pounded over the head in the prologue initially, it was like, "YES, I GET IT! THE CLOUDS ARE BLACK AND SILVER! TRULY! YOU DON'T NEED TO SAY IT AGAIN!" but found a nice flow afterwards.  It was a minor complaint in comparison to how deeply I got immersed in the book. I would've liked Verin to survive and I still think she has a few things up her sleeve but she was amazing. I loled when I found out Sheriam was black, it felt so weirdly done. That chapter. It doesn't matter though. I was expecting to see the Seanchan person help Egwene up during the battle given her dreaming of it, possibly at a future date?

 

All in all, kudos to Brandon Sanderson. Kudos to the late and great Robert Jordan. And Kudos to all who brought this book to life.

Damn it's gonna be an anxious wait for 13 :P

[Dr. Love]

I bought the book Tuesday night and finished by Wednesday morning.  I know I missed the big spoilers craze already, but if anyone still wants them, here's a character-by-character synopsis.

 

Rand:  Acts crazy.  And has been spending too much time bending light in the Warbreaker universe.

Mat:  Complains about gurls and pays a brief visit to some other (literary) universe.  Stephen King, call your office.

Perrin:  Dithers and moans.

Nynave:  Yanks her braid while calling Mat all kinds of startling things.

Egwene:  Acts uppity to her elders.  And is guilty of forgery.

Elayne:  Acts petulant, sniffs, raises her chin, folds her arms under her breasts, takes baths, and changes clothes a lot.  Probably.

Avienda:  Drips.

Min:  Needs a chir'o'practor or similar ter'angreal.

Lan:  Is going the distance.  He's going for SPEED.  He's all alone (ALL ALONE) all alone in his time of need.

Moiraine:  Wouldn't even *recognize* Siuan.

Moridin:  Takes a nap.

Semirhage:  Eats beans in an unusual way.

Graendal:  Gets punched in the face.

Demandred:  Explains everything, provided you can decipher everything from three extremely uninformative sentences of four words each.

Cadsuane:  Acts condescending.  For everyone else's good, of course.

Thom:  Gets fewer lines than Talmanes, of all people.

Juilin:  Gets fewer lines than Thom.

Talmanes:  Gets a new pipe and a personality transplant.

Jain Bloody Farstrider:  Is Thom's brother, or his servant, or maybe both.

Bayle Domon:  Mumbles once.

Loial:  Is aka Ogier Not Even Mentioned In This Book.

Beonin, Leane, Logain, Taim, Mattin Steppaneos, and many other characters-of-interest:  Who the hell knows?  Dammit, I *enjoyed* all that detail!!!

Lews Therin Telamon:  Likes Weiramon.  Go figure.

Sheriam:  Gets a haircut.

Siuan:  Tells fishin' stories.

Gareth Bryne:  Sleeps with his sword.

Rodel Ituralde:  Can't go home.

Davram Bashere:  Can't either.

Lord Agelmere:  Can.  BUT WILL HE?

Hurin:  Is still a dork.

Tam al'Thor:  Is a very bad actor.  The critics rate him "half a balefire".

Berelain:  Doesn't sleep with Perrin.

Faile:  Doesn't sleep.

Tuon:  Dies.  May she live forever.

Laras:  Ain't a darkfriend.

Elaida:  Is made to Suffa.

Gawyn:  Annoys Egwene almost as much as he annoys me.

Shemerin:  Finds an exciting new occupation.

Aldrin:  Stuns me that so many people actually remember where we first met him.  I only *thought* I was a wot maniac!

The BA Hunters:  Pities da fools.

Hopper:  Hops.  Really.

Bela:  Lives!  'Nuff said.

 

Verin... Alas, Verin can't be written off so quickly.

Verin:

* reminds us that in the Old Tongue, you can't "verb" any noun, nor can you "noun" any verb.

* reminds us that in the Old Tongue, "ta'veren" means "bloody huge plot contrivance".

* should have her own Old Tongue word:  "O'Ran'Jah'Jah".

* is not only a BA, but is also a BA.

* woke my wife up so that I could gloat that what she thought was my most wild-assed theory was 100% right.

 

And finally....

 

Asmodean:  Is dead.  RAFO.

 

By the first Oath, you know my words to be true, from one who lived it.

 

Not the best book in the series, but far from the worst.  Some of the scenes were fabulous.  A scant few felt completely out of place.  A lot of the subtleties we know and love are absent except in a scant few places I'm pretty sure were RJ-penned.  I loved BS's take on Mat's sharper, wittier character.  I really didn't like BS's take on Verin's character, especially when she was talking to Mat.

 

All in all, BS has done RJ Justice.  And speaking of Justice, nice sword.

 

 

I like your style!

[GlowingThread]

lets look at the trend. Elayne first: 2. Then Aviendha: 4. The next number in the trend logically would either be 8 or 16 for min!! Poor thing lol

 

Is it just me who likes Gawyn's rather fumbling sense of nobility. The princess must be saved, etc... and he runs around like a bewildered puppy attempting to "save" Egwene, Eleyne and avenge mommy. I think it might have been great if he really had saved Egwene so that he might feel like the knight in shining armor he's always dreamed (literally) of being. I also get the feeling that if he does do the right warder thing of actually saving his AS of choice WHEN SHE NEEDS IT that she would find that appealing, it is after all one of women's top three fantasies still.

[Ged]

My feelings after reading it:

 

There are some places where it definitely doesn't sound like RJ writing... understandable but still..

 

Apart from that... I thought that this was a really good book. It feels like the series has been finished though. If there was nothing after this, I'd still consider this a good ending for the series. Its not like the final battle with the DO can really be expected to be something breathtaking, unless there is something really deep going on.

 

 

Now to the details:

The Egwene arc went well for the most part. Elaida's fate could've been more satisfying. This is more deus ex machina-ish.

Rand... really doesn't know how to use his tools effectively, and destroying the access key was just incredibly retarded. It doesn't matter that the prophecies don't say anything or that of course, we know he's going to win.. he has no legitimate reason to believe that the DO can be beaten without it, or that it may not give him some advantage. In his moment of revelation when he supposedly gained wisdom... he did something stupid. I liked the idea of him remembering all of his lives. I wish I expected that to amount to something (its deus ex machina-ish also, but if its done well, I'm all for it.. but somehow I expect Rand to have gained some minimal channeling knowledge and random information and not much beyond that... seriously that's countless generations of knowledge and wisdom that he has just gained)

 

And Semirhage... was pretty much destroyed. There was little dignity to what she did. Those pathetic threats she kept throwing out, and the general incompetance was all pretty bad. Cadsuane's idea for dealing with her was interesting, but it really shouldn't have worked, especially not as it did.

 

Also, one thing that bothered me... Rand seems to give up too easily when things don't go his way. He had the CK, cowing Tuon would hardly have been a significant task. He could've turned the sky to fire, and used that as an example of what could happen to the cities she controls... seriously... The Borderlanders... there were other ways of dealing with them.

All of the problems with supplies... apart from the fact that its all pretty worrying to have food rot on you, its not like some linked Aes Sedai and Asha'man couldn't open giant gateways to transfer food stuffs over quickly instead of using ships (and someone really needs to use the Power to accelerate the growth of trees and production of food). He can move armies, the AS can get supplies with gateways, but Rand can't move supplies with gateways?

 

How he handled Ituralde also bothered me. He made promises, but if he couldn't keep them. But if he couldn't, at the least he should've gone and been honest with the guy, and allowed him to use the Asha'man to do what he needed to in Arad Doman. Not the best of situations, but its a minimum of decency.