All The Focus Is On Rand/Perrin/Mat..But..Don't There Have To Be OTHER Tav'eren?

[The Fisher King]

I was thinking about this alot...mainly inspired by a remark Thom makes to Tuon in KOD about the Nature of Ta'vereness - where he says that Tav'eren always seem to find what they need when they need it...and also by some of Moraine's early comments in the series about Tav'eren. Verin's too, I think - My memory is admittedly foggier than the air in the Rahad.

 

But, while Rand and his 2 pals are certainly remarkable in the LEVEL of their Tavereness...They are the three most powerful Taver'en since Hawkwing...they are not uncommon...nor is the phenomenon.

 

We are told that some may be ''Lesser'' Tave'ren and that some may be spun out by the Wheel to be Ta'veren for a brief time only...

 

So, in addition to The Big 3, I would guess that Birgitte, Elaida, Fain (remember, tav'eren can be evil too) and maybe even Tuon have maybe been Tav'eren.

 

 

But, you'll have to drive a long way to ever convinve me that in the entire first 11 books Rand and Mat and Perrin are the only three Ta'veren we have seen.

 

 

 

Fish

[Reyoru]

You're guess is as good as anyones ;)

[The Fisher King]

''Your wish is as good as anyone's.''

 

...Don't I WISH!!! LOL ;-)

 

Fish

[Reyoru]

Haha

[jwillis7]

can't Siuan see tav'eren so she would know if Elaida was, one or other Aes Sedai were.  And if there were i think Ishamael would have tracked them down to try and use them, since he can do that.

[The Fisher King]

I wish I could remember who it was that had that Gift (being able to 'See' Ta'veren), but it wasn't Siuan.

 

I thiiiiiiink it was Nicola

 

Fish

[crazyfool]

Siuan could too she says so in tGH

[Lobododragao]

yeah I think it was nicola that could see them as well. I remember when they popped into salidar she was telling an aes sedai she could see something around mat.

[jwillis7]

and logain

[jwillis7]

TGH chap 5 Suian says "... It is one of my Talents, seeing ta'veren"

 

 

but that does raise the question how would she know what that talent was unless she had seen others before.

[Muad Cheade]

Rand, Perrin, and Mat are the only current ta'avern. If there were any more, we would not only know but they would also be mentioned in the Prophecies of the Dragon.

 

However, if I could pick anyone else to be a "secret" ta'avern, I would say it would be Egwene. She's changed world events and people seem to follow her. Even Talmanes noticed that.

[buckeyebull64]

So if we rule out everyone Siuan has ever seen (but not when stilled) but not commented on, we are left with Fain and Ishy.  I think Ishy must be IF what he said was true, about him fighting the Dragon every age throughout time.

 

However, the case can still be made for Egwene, if the following applies:

 

1) Tav'eren-ness has a sudden onset.  The three boys  were normal farmkids for the first 20 years of their lives, but were they Tav'erens then, or not?  If Tav'eren-ness can be dorment, would Siuan be able to see it?

 

2) If the first condition is fulfilled and is the case with Eggs, then Eggs is obviously at her peak as a Tav'eren.  That means the stilling can sever those talents, and they don't come back with Healing.

 

3) Nicola is keeping one more secret from Eggs.  Not a stretch, but whats the motivation?

[Jemlin]

I'm pretty sure RJ mentioned in one the blog posts that Tav'eren can be temporary, in that, a person might not be Tav'eren their whole life....for example, think about a baby Rand...do you really think it would be productive for the pattern for a baby to influence people so strongly based on its needs? LOL I think NOT

 

That being said, I bet the talent for seeing Tav'eren ties in on them being ACTIVE, not inactive.  When Siuan saw Rand, it was on the Active path (as was when Logain saw him), as it was the beginning of his adventures and awakening.  If they see someone who isn't in the active, they probably don't see the glow.

 

So, I bet there can and should be lesser Tav'eren popping up and popping down here and there.  I always thought Egwene was, but I am petty sure somewhere RJ said that the other "major" characters weren't.  So, most likely not, but even as she said, being "Amyrlin" was enough.

 

[Phariah]

i really don't see why there should be more taveren? really why?

nothing stated has said there needs to be. so what make taveren the next wolfbrother type of ability? it would cheapen it's importance and impact.

 

in this era it is the dragon reborn he is gonna fix the problems of the weave and Mat and Perrin are supposed to aid him. and it was an unheard of event as it is that they were all from the same village. the DO is breaking loose and 3 taveren are needed to control the situation so the pattern spun them out.

 

 

[Beren]

Confirming Jemlin's post. The quote is on the 13depository blog with a bunch of the RJ Q&As and he gave the exact reasoning you did.

 

There could be more Ta'veren if the Wheel needs them to fix something. we haven't seen any yet, but that doesn't mean there will not be any more.

[ROB_88]

There could be more Ta'veren if the Wheel needs them to fix something. we haven't seen any yet, but that doesn't mean there will not be any more.

 

there will be more Ta'veren at some point, probably some after TG to restabilise stuff.

but i higlhy doubt we'll see any of them.

[Elgee]

Which still begs the question: HOW does Siuan know she has the Talent of seeing Tav'eren if she's never seen any before Rand?

[buckeyebull64]

How?  Siuan's been around awhile, knows a lot of stuff.  She may have seen a lesser one sometime before.  Even if not, she knows from her girlhood friend that Rand, Mat, and Perrin all are, and she can see the same glow around them all.

[jwillis7]

no but when she said it, she had not seen mat or perrin, and who would know what a random glow around someone meant.

[Jemlin]

Which still begs the question: HOW does Siuan know she has the Talent of seeing Tav'eren if she's never seen any before Rand?

 

This is one of the reasons why I believe that there have been and are still minor Tav'eren who pop up once in a while to correct the pattern.  Why would a self-correcting mechanism barely activate its fixing apparatus? 

 

I think the problem is, we are assuming all Tav'eren have to be on the same level of strength as the three boys, or even Artur Hawking.  There can be minor Tav'eren who wink in and out. Remember, he said that someone isn't Tav'eren their whole lives.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I always assumed Siuan knew he was tav'eren because it is probably a talent taught to either novices or accepted during their training. Well, i dont mean to say taught, but they are educated about it, enough that they would recognize if they had it.

[Majsju]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here, so lets clear out some things.

 

The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one.  You aren’t born ta’veren.  Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?    It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely.  Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism.  When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created.  I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.  Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.  And, no, ta’veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina.  It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

 

Now, if we look at Siuan with this in mind, she spent 20ish years as Aes Sedai before she met Rand. Twenty years when the Wheel would have been quite interested in making sure things were set up to make it as easy as possible for Rand to do the things he must do. Seems to me there would have been a very high likeliness that there would have been some ta'veren made during this time.

 

And while it somewhat predates this, I have always been convinced someone close to Laman was ta'veren. Looking at what he did, for no apparent reason he did the one thing that would piss off the Aiel enough to cross the mountains and start a war. And then Laman conveniently survives long enough to reach Tar Valon, just as a certain Aiel woman goes into labour, so she must give birth on the slopes of Dragonmount.

[jwillis7]

 

 

And while it somewhat predates this, I have always been convinced someone close to Laman was ta'veren. Looking at what he did, for no apparent reason he did the one thing that would piss off the Aiel enough to cross the mountains and start a war. And then Laman conveniently survives long enough to reach Tar Valon, just as a certain Aiel woman goes into labour, so she must give birth on the slopes of Dragonmount.

 

but that to me sounds more like the patter was bending him to its will, the pattern needed rand born on dragon mount so events fell into place so that it happened

[mb]

But, while Rand and his 2 pals are certainly remarkable in the LEVEL of their Tavereness...They are the three most powerful Taver'en since Hawkwing...they are not uncommon...nor is the phenomenon.

Actually, we are not told of Perrin's & Mat's taveren levels; only that their taverenness is weaker than Rand's.  And none of their taveren levels are compared with Hawkwing's taveren level.

 

[meercatman]

Remember that Loial can also see Ta'averen, that's something to chew over...

I THINK  :-\ that he has seen Fain, when fain gave Rand the other wound in his side, so I think that that could mean he is not Ta'averon. Im probably wrong though  ???