Man vs Trolloc

[Shaidar]

One of the most unrealistic things about the series, and one of the most overlooked, is the sheer ease with which blademasters and even skilled human swordsmen dispose of Trollocs.

 

On reflection, I think this is nonsense. No matter how good you are with a sword, you will die 1vs1 against a Trolloc unless you have the Dark One's own luck. Consider that:

 

1) They are tall (head and shoulders even above Rand, one of the tallest non-Aeil humans around) and extremely powerful, being a fusion of humans and beasts like bears and bulls. From their descriptions, they should be strong enough to cripple a human body even with an unarmed physical blow. They can also run as fast as a horse, which combined with their weight should be enough to smite down a man even if he gets extremely lucky and impales it with a spear.

 

2) Not only that, but they are also armed and armored. Yes, they might be crude, but their arm reach is well more than a human's and the strength is stunning, and presumably their stamina allows their armor to compensate in bulk what it lacks for in quality of manufacture. Imagine fighting an armored, big-club-wielding and dexterous bear. And if you get as much as knicked by Trolloc weapons, you might still not make it if it happens to be sufficiently tainted.

 

3) I suspect for the Trolloc it will be a bit like the game <a href="http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/">how many 5 years old could you take in a fight?</a>. No matter how nimble and fearless they are, one good swing of your shield would floor them.

 

In conclusion. RJ once said a Borderland rule of thumb is that it takes 3 skilled soldiers to pull down a single Trolloc in melee. Perhaps, though I'd imagine it's more like 10:1. Still, it's clear that even the best of the best will be hard put to deal with Trollocs in single combat, let alone casually massacre regiments of them like Rand or Lan do. For myself, I suspect the only way I could ever take on a Trolloc is if I'm put 100m or more away with an assault rifle, and that's (questionably) assuming I manage to keep my cool.

[Balefire to da face!]

One of the most unrealistic things about the series, and one of the most overlooked, is the sheer ease with which blademasters and even skilled human swordsmen dispose of Trollocs.

 

On reflection, I think this is nonsense. No matter how good you are with a sword, you will die 1vs1 against a Trolloc unless you have the Dark One's own luck. Consider that:

 

I disagree. 1 on 1 without weapons, I would give you that any human should have a hard, if not impossible time of taking out a trolloc. I think Rand unarmed has been nearly killed by trollocs more then once. With a sword though, that completely swings things the other way. Skill is what matters. Period. All the strength and nastiness in the world is nothing compared to one skillful swing of the sword.

 

1) They are tall (head and shoulders even above Rand, one of the tallest non-Aeil humans around) and extremely powerful, being a fusion of humans and beasts like bears and bulls. From their descriptions, they should be strong enough to cripple a human body even with an unarmed physical blow. They can also run as fast as a horse, which combined with their weight should be enough to smite down a man even if he gets extremely lucky and impales it with a spear.

 

I've always gotten the impression that trollocs go about 10 feet tall, maybe a little less. Which is big, but there have been humans almost as big. Also, something as big as that is going to be slow, unless gravity is weaker in the third age then it is in the first ;) Making it even less of a match to a person skilled with a sword. And lastly, trollocs do not have the strength of bears or bulls. No matter how big trollocs are built, they are not half a ton animals.

 

In large scale battles I see trollocs having more of an advantage. It probably is pretty damn hard to break a trolloc charge. They can use thier size truely to thier advantage when the humans are packed in not just by the trollocs, but by thier comrades.

 

In small scale skirmishes though, I see trollocs being fairly easy kills for anyone with Rand/Mat/Perrin/Lan etc skill. If they have room to move, the trollocs slowness would put them at a big disadvantage.

 

2) Not only that, but they are also armed and armored. Yes, they might be crude, but their arm reach is well more than a human's and the strength is stunning, and presumably their stamina allows their armor to compensate in bulk what it lacks for in quality of manufacture. Imagine fighting an armored, big-club-wielding and dexterous bear. And if you get as much as knicked by Trolloc weapons, you might still not make it if it happens to be sufficiently tainted.

 

Maybe the DO should sue Thankan'dar for shoddy product then, because whatever they are wearing I don't think I've read a single time in the hundreds of thousands of words of the WoT "Rand's swing struck home, but repounded off the trolloc's sturdy armor".

 

3) I suspect for the Trolloc it will be a bit like the game <a href="http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/">how many 5 years old could you take in a fight?</a>. No matter how nimble and fearless they are, one good swing of your shield would floor them.

 

In a large scale battle, it might be like fighting skilled 5 year olds with little knives(not an entirely pleasant thought to anyone with kids and knows how vicious they can be! ;) )....but in small scale skirmishes it's nothing like that. More like a skilled bullfighter playing with a slow, lumbering beast.

 

In conclusion. RJ once said a Borderland rule of thumb is that it takes 3 skilled soldiers to pull down a single Trolloc in melee. Perhaps, though I'd imagine it's more like 10:1. Still, it's clear that even the best of the best will be hard put to deal with Trollocs in single combat, let alone casually massacre regiments of them like Rand or Lan do. For myself, I suspect the only way I could ever take on a Trolloc is if I'm put 100m or more away with an assault rifle, and that's (questionably) assuming I manage to keep my cool.

 

Aim for the head, not even bears or bulls have too much fight in them after a good headshot ;)

[Muad Cheade]

1). Blademasters are among the most lethal non-channelers in the WoT world

2). Yes, Trollocs are very strong but they are also very, very, very stupid.

3). I think the first time people fight Trollocs they don't fare that well because...Well, Trollocs look like nightmares come to life (Tam was a blademaster but a Trolloc nearly killed him in tEotW). However, as you repeatedly fight against them, you realize that you are able to out think them.

4). Skill, intelligence and planning will win out against brute, unintelligent strength everytime.

[OptimusPrime]

Tam was a blademaster

]

 

Doubt it

[Elgee]

Tam was a blademaster

]

 

Doubt it

 

Why then do you think he comes back from being a high ranking officer in the Illianer army, bearing a heron marked blade?

[OptimusPrime]

Ooh, I dont know. Let me wrack my brain here for a few hours.

 

Same way Rand got it.

 

Why do you think a supposed blademaster was almost killed by a trolloc?

[Elgee]

Of course! *Smacks forehead*

 

Tam's father must have gone off soldiering and earned himself the blade. Then Tam took it with him when HE in turn went off soldiering.

[Al Thor93]

1). Blademasters are among the most lethal non-channelers in the WoT world

2). Yes, Trollocs are very strong but they are also very, very, very stupid.

3). I think the first time people fight Trollocs they don't fare that well because...Well, Trollocs look like nightmares come to life (Tam was a blademaster but a Trolloc nearly killed him in tEotW). However, as you repeatedly fight against them, you realize that you are able to out think them.

4). Skill, intelligence and planning will win out against brute, unintelligent strength everytime.

 

Good point and to everyone saying that Tam isn't a blademaster,

    1.) there is the possiblity that he didn't want Rand to know until he was ready. And maybe in doing that he was caught by surprise.

    2.) When he is in the fever he talks about the war and Rand realizes later that Tam isn't his father obviously and that there is more to him than meets the eye.

    3.) Also, If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Lan or Moraine mention something about him being a blademaster.

 

If my opinion seems a little off, I would like to know why and the proof of where I went wrong.

[BrainFireBob]

Mainly because it's specifically mentioned. By Perrin. When reflecting on Aram pushing Tam. Tam was- and may be again- a blademaster.

 

Then again, who said it was one Trolloc that nearly got Tam? He could have taken on quite a number and just been overwhelmed.

 

Trollocs aren't skilled, is the issue. They're big, quick, strong, lazy, and cowardly.  A Trolloc is the nieghborhood bully writ large- powerful, but if he has to exert himself to hurt you, or if you have a chance to hurt him back, he'd rather be anywhere else. It's essentially a guy bigger, stronger, and dumber than you swinging a club with a sharp edge, and you're a fully trained fighter. But you have to hit him a lot more than he hits you to win.

 

They are powerful and massive, though, and take a lot of hitting to put down, it seems. Hence needing three skilled soldiers.

[OptimusPrime]

Of course! *Smacks forehead*

 

Tam's father must have gone off soldiering and earned himself the blade. Then Tam took it with him when HE in turn went off soldiering.

 

Not every single person who owns a heron marked blade is a blademaster. Rand in EotW is a perfect example. Nothing to believe he was given the sword by real blademasters or judged by real blademasters. He could have found it quite easily, or have been given it as a gift just like Rand was.

[BrainFireBob]

Except it is flat-out stated in the story that he was a blademaster, which makes your entire argument fall apart.

[OptimusPrime]

Fair enough. Can we get a quote? Dont remember anything saying he was a genuine blademaster but its a while since I read the early books.

[Wingendosering]

Tam being a ninja argument aside, Trollocs are cowardly.  One of them dies, the others become reluctant to fight.  And yes skill matters.

 

Don't forget that in the earlier books alot of the trollocs were equipped with polearms with nooses on the ends (can't remember the name of the weapons off-hand).  It's pretty hard to kill a guy with a sword when you have a stick and some rope.  Besides, Trollocs also have bull heads and whatnot...some animals' eyes look to the sides, they can't quite look forward properly.  You'd be hard pressed to beat a blademaster that you can't see, I think.

[Elgee]

It's pretty hard to kill a guy with a sword when you have a stick and some rope.

 

Best. Saying. Ever.

 

;D

[Swigaro]

Tam was the second in command of one of Randland's elite fighting forces, and had in his posession a blade that not only had a heron mark, but was power wrought.  That is not something you just stumble across.  I find it nearly impossible to believe that he didn't earn that sword in one of the ways we hear about in KoD.  The reason he had trouble with Narg was because he hadn't touched the sword since he returned to the Two Rivers.  Rand had never seen the blade.  Tam wasn't working the forms every night.  Even Lan would have trouble with a Trolloc if he stopped training for 18 years or so.

[Thorn]

At the time of the Winternight attack Tam was fairly old, and hadn't touched in his sword in roughly 18 years (Rand had never seen it before that night); he still managed to fight off an attack by multiple Trollocs, but he probably isn't a reliable yardstick for "average blademaster skill" at that point. 20 years ago I was awesome at Atari, but these days not so much.

 

I believe the Big White Book talks some about Trollocs and why they're ineffective in combat; the basic argument is that they're "the perfect soldier, as designed by someone who had never been in combat." They're big, tough, strong, and ferocious, but undisciplined and unintelligent, so beatable with superior tactics. It also talks some about military tactics used during the Trolloc Wars -- basically, pike formations to hold the trollocs in place, then massive amounts of longbow/crossbow fire.

 

You don't actually fight Trollocs 1v1 if at all possible; you use their stupidity to create a tactical situation where their advantages don't do them any good.

 

As to WoT bladework, I'm not sure we really know much about WoT blade technique, despite all the description, but the impression is that it's something similar to kendo and/or the t'ai chi chuan blade forms. Kendo is mostly about strength, but proper body mechanics *can* make a big difference even against much stronger opponents, so it's not completely unrealistic.

[Builder]

In conclusion. RJ once said a Borderland rule of thumb is that it takes 3 skilled soldiers to pull down a single Trolloc in melee. Perhaps, though I'd imagine it's more like 10:1. Still, it's clear that even the best of the best will be hard put to deal with Trollocs in single combat, let alone casually massacre regiments of them like Rand or Lan do. For myself, I suspect the only way I could ever take on a Trolloc is if I'm put 100m or more away with an assault rifle, and that's (questionably) assuming I manage to keep my cool.

 

No, I think even in the stone age 3 men could take out one of those big-ass animals that lived during that period of time.

[raz0r]

It's clearly stated at least once in the books that Tam earned the sword, not just stumbled across it in his travels outside Two Rivers.

 

From TGH - chapter 8:

 

Moiraine: "Tam al'Thor left the Two Rivers as a boy, Mother. He joined the army of Illian, and served in the

Whitecloak War and the last two wars with Tear. In time he rose to be a blademaster and the Second Captain of

the Companions."

 

[Seven of Nine]

It's pretty hard to kill a guy with a sword when you have a stick and some rope.

Unless you're Mat with his quarterstaff . . .

[Alternate34]

I echo most of the posts here that a blademaster would be able to take out a small group of trollocs with a combination of skill and using their stupidity against them.  A group of trollocs wouldn't work together.  Proper positioning would allow a blademaster to work them against one another.

 

Tam faces multiple trollocs at the beginning of TEOTW if I remember correctly and it is in a place he is very familiar with so he could use the terrain against them.

 

A few things about trollocs seems a little off though.  They probably aren't slow since they are muscular though they may be uncoordinated because of their size.  Many large animals are really fast.  Also, while swordfighting can reduce the advantage of strength, it still has a large effect on fighting.  Parrying can lose effectiveness if the sword wielder is weak.  Actually cutting something is harder when weaker, though this difficulty would be reduced with a power wrought blade.  Strength is also required for proper balance as you need a strong core.  Balance is key when practicing the forms as shown in TGH when Lan has Rand practice that one damn form I can't remember the name of that preceeds Sheathing the Sword.

[Mr. Dragon]

We know that when ever Tam enters the Bel time competion for archery or quaterstaff he always wins, this indiactes that he has had significant training. We also know that Tam bought the sword instead of winning it from a blademaster. These two things lead me to believe that Tam was at least reasonable proficient using a blade when he left the army but probably wasn't a fully certified blademaster.

[fikkie77]

It's clearly stated at least once in the books that Tam earned the sword, not just stumbled across it in his travels outside Two Rivers.

 

From TGH - chapter 8:

 

Moiraine: "Tam al'Thor left the Two Rivers as a boy, Mother. He joined the army of Illian, and served in the

Whitecloak War and the last two wars with Tear. In time he rose to be a blademaster and the Second Captain of

the Companions."

 

Thank you... I wanted to quote that one, because it proves that Tam is a blademaster.

[OptimusPrime]

Point conceded. Thanks for the quote. I remembered he served in Illian but that was all. Nice one

[Balefire to da face!]

A few things about trollocs seems a little off though.  They probably aren't slow since they are muscular though they may be uncoordinated because of their size.  Many large animals are really fast.

 

Trollocs are fully erect bipeds. Care to take a guess how many 10 foot fully erect bipeds have ever existed?

 

Generally speaking we humans are pretty crappy natural fighters. And a big reason for this is because being fully erect on two legs is a horrible base. You start adding size to that, and it's going to be slow. Really slow.

 

Come to think of it, it's funny because Thorn said......

 

I believe the Big White Book talks some about Trollocs and why they're ineffective in combat; the basic argument is that they're "the perfect soldier, as designed by someone who had never been in combat."

 

And Aginor must have been a molecular biologist or geneticist because it's pretty much evolutionary biology 101 that you are not going to get a great fighter out of blowing up a human :D Throw a tail on that thing for counterbalance and give it limited bipedal movement so it can use a sword or can drop down to pounce from a four legged base. Then you have a dangerous fighter ;)

[Mr. Dragon]

Thank you... I wanted to quote that one, because it proves that Tam is a blademaster.

 

Was a blademaster, 18 years of not doing any sword fighting/training will have dulled his skill, his muscle structure will have changed aswell. but thx for the quote, I had forgottten it.