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Will Rand still die if Alanna is killed?


yellie1107
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but that's a slightly different thing. for Lan there was one bond that got moved and was still active as if nothing happened.

 

for Rand there are several but if one breaks there is still a broken bond there that will not be moved.

if it happens it will no doubt have an impact on him, the question is if the other ones are enough to soften the blow

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If a warder bond is not passed when the bond-holder dies, the warder would give up living and/or try to avenge the bond-holder's death.

The number of people bonded to, that to me does not make any difference.  The first bond-holder to die would still cause that.

 

Though there might be a difference when the bonding is done against the warder's permission.

 

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The Aes Sedai dying who holds the Warders bond doesnt make the Warder die.

They just run off doing crazy stuff that gets them killed.

 

If the Warder has something worth living for they wont just go get themselves killed.

I think Rand has a few things worth living for, plus he already plans on going and doing something that is going to get him killed.

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Rand states that his bond with Alanna became weaker following the bonding by the girls, so maybe not.

Indeed - which leads me to wonder whether bonding someone against his will leads to a somehow "weaker" bond; whether it's simple mind over matter; or whether it's because Rand can channel.

 

You'll remember that Alanna said to Cadsuane that she tried compelling Rand to do something and had no effect, but she put that down Rand being the Dragon Reborn and/or a channeler.

 

However, later on, Rand makes a comment that Alanna's "bundle of sensation" is much less prominent in his head than the other three ladies'. This got me thinking - what if the fact that Alanna bonded Rand against his will meant that Rand's reactionary contempt and dislike of her made the bond into less than what it should have been. After all, if you bond someone who wants to be bonded to you, it stands to reason that the whole relationship will "work" better.

 

As for whether Rand will die if the bond breaks, I am not so sure. The Warders were said to die because they had no purpose in life, much like women and men who were cut off from the Source. However, Rand not only has three other women bonded to him (and more strongly so than by Alanna), but his connection to the Source is still there (this mysterious illness notwithstanding). So, it seems unlikely that he will follow the same sequence of events that a normal Warder would.

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compulsion via the bond worked asgainst aes sedai as we saw with logain but maybe thats a difference between male and female channellers

i remember lanfear saying that compulsion is less effective vs strong willed peopple and strength of will go hand in hand with strength in the one power and rand is as strong as a man can be in the one power

so that maybe his defense was strength of will

 

wouldnt the forsaken have used compulsion on rand or lews if they could to turn him to the dark one?

but moiraine saw a furture with rand under lanfears control

i theorize the only way lanfear could of turned him as moiraine saw would be with graendals help to control the merging between rand and lews

 

elayne said that the bond with the between them and rand isnt a standard warder bond  so we cant what effect a death will have on rand or vice versa

 

imo the bond wouldnt be what would drive him to his death if they died b/c of him

he would do that just fine all by himself

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I think that there are slight diffreneces in the way Aes Sedai/Asha'man do the bonding. 

 

Elayne says she watched while two Aes Sedai bonded their Warders and that she tried to learn the weave from them in secret (one Aes Sedai even had her Warder give an oath to obey).  When Elayne bonds Birgitte, Elayne isn't able to force Birgitte into anything.  Maybe Elayne doesn't know how to do it, or maybe she formed the weaves differently than the other Aes Sedai did.

 

Alanna isn't able to force Rand to do anything.  I don't think channeling has anything to do with it, since other bonded channelers have no problem compelling. It might be that he is Ta'veren and that protects him.  I think it would be interesting to see if Alanna bonded any of the other Ta'veren if the same would happen.

 

When Logain bonds his Aes Sedai, he is able to have complete control over them and he appears to do it with ease.  Myrelle really has to work at forcing Lan to come to her when he first arrives at the Salidar camp.

 

My conclusion is that every weave/person is different, and the bond cannot be the same for every two that are connected. 

 

~Mashiara

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I think that there are slight diffreneces in the way Aes Sedai/Asha'man do the bonding. 

 

Elayne says she watched while two Aes Sedai bonded their Warders and that she tried to learn the weave from them in secret (one Aes Sedai even had her Warder give an oath to obey).  When Elayne bonds Birgitte, Elayne isn't able to force Birgitte into anything.  Maybe Elayne doesn't know how to do it, or maybe she formed the weaves differently than the other Aes Sedai did.

 

Alanna isn't able to force Rand to do anything.  I don't think channeling has anything to do with it, since other bonded channelers have no problem compelling. It might be that he is Ta'veren and that protects him.  I think it would be interesting to see if Alanna bonded any of the other Ta'veren if the same would happen.

 

When Logain bonds his Aes Sedai, he is able to have complete control over them and he appears to do it with ease.  Myrelle really has to work at forcing Lan to come to her when he first arrives at the Salidar camp.

 

My conclusion is that every weave/person is different, and the bond cannot be the same for every two that are connected. 

 

~Mashiara

You are right, there are differences in the bonding process, but there are loads of variables to take into account:

 

1) Bonding with saidin has to be different from bonding with saidar, or at least accomplished differently, because of the intrinsic differences between the opposing halves. So, we must consider that when Alanna bonded Rand, it was with the female-half of the source - and when Alanna talks about it, she seems surprised that she couldn't compel Rand, from which one can conclude that this is a normal effect of the bond.

 

2) When the Asha'man bonded the Aes Sedai, I seem to recall Logain thinking about he "added" a little extra to it to make the women obedient - Myrelle said she had to really work on Lan to get him to arrive at Salidar, but Lan wa still "compelled" to obey his Aes Sedai.

 

3) I don't see how being ta'veren would affect how the bonding weave affected Rand - that doesn't really logically follow, with all due respect. It doesn't make sense for the OP to behave differently just because Rand is different - otherwise everything would be different for everybody. As far as I'm aware, the OP does the same thing for everyone who performs the same weave - the only difference is one of magnitude based on the channeler's strength. Thus, the weave would and should have had the same effect on Rand for Alanna as it did for everyone else.

 

The only remaining variables, then, are this:

 

a) Rand can channel - we don't know of any more warders bonded before Rand who could channel. But now that we do - i.e. Flynn, Narishma and Hopwil (before he died), it would appear that they functioned as normal warders should (they seemed to obey their Aes Sedai implicitly, even when Jahar wanted to jump down the Salidarian Aes Sedai's throats).

 

b) The bond was imposed on Rand. As far as I am aware, no other male channeler has thus far been forced into a bond, and we've had no clue from any of the other male channelers bonded by saidar that they won't obey a direct command from their Aes Sedai.

 

So, when you put all those things together, the outcome is this: either,

 

i) Rand's bond with Alanna is "lessened" because she forced it on him, or;

 

ii) Rand's ability to channel somehow lessened her ability to compel him to do as she said.

 

The weaknesses of my argument include the fact that I don't know of any definite proof that Aes Sedai can compel their Warders, but there seems to be a precedent set by Alanna's words, Moiraine's interaction with Lan and Myrelle's forcing of Lan to come to her. Also, we don't know enough about how bonding with saidar affects male channelers.

 

But based on the evidence I've outlined, does it not seem plausible that Rand's perception of the bond - it has been compared with rape by other female Aes Sedai, and Rand definitely wasn't pleased about it - has everything to do with its effect on him? It also explains why Myrelle had difficulty with Lan (who, as far as we know, can't channel) - he didn't perceive it as being done with his permission, so it had less of an effect with him.

 

But anyway, I've gone on waaaaay too long about this lol. I hope it all made sense.

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I always wondered if a warder has been bonded by more then one Aes Sedai, will he die if say one of the Aes Sedai that bonded him die. Will the others be able to save him?

 

I have always believed that it was only Lan that would run deep into the Blight to embrace death, to sheathe the sword. He had nothing to live for since his nation was dead. He had been looking for death a long time before Moiraine caught him and bonded him. If the Aes Sedai was killed the warder would do what he could to avenge her death but it wouldn't be the "Race to Embrace Death" that it'd be for Lan.

 

So, I don't think a warder would die if the Aes Sedai died, was killed. He would probablyget himself killed avenging here but then, being what they are, the avenging might just be successful. ;)

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He had been looking for death a long time before Moiraine caught him and bonded him.

Actually she found him, and the bonding was not immediate.  If I remember correctly, he asked her to bond him.

 

 

Yes, and they had some sort of pre-school fighting going on when they first met. Did she toss him into a pond of some sort? Must re-read New Spring I guess. ;)

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He had been looking for death a long time before Moiraine caught him and bonded him.

Actually she found him, and the bonding was not immediate.  If I remember correctly, he asked her to bond him.

Yes, and they had some sort of pre-school fighting going on when they first met. Did she toss him into a pond of some sort? Must re-read New Spring I guess. ;)

Had not read New Spring, but one of their discussions in the main series tells. (Great Hunt Chapter 22)  She channeled water over him, he threw her into a pond; I take the channeling came first of the two.

 

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wrong. she snuck up on him in the woods while he was meditating, tried to grab his sword, and he tossed her. then that night she used the power to create a huge stream of water down onto him.

 

at the end of the book, after an attack by the black ajah on basically everyone around, moraine follows a depressed lan out of canluum in kandor (i think, city might be off), and finds him burning his ponytail which was cut off when he lost his virginity. the woman then keeps it until he gets married, which he doesnt, and can use it to control him. anyways, moraine goes into a speech about how her search for the dragon and his battle against the blight are both the same war against the dark one, and she asks him if he will be her warder and he accepts.

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3) I don't see how being ta'veren would affect how the bonding weave affected Rand - that doesn't really logically follow, with all due respect. It doesn't make sense for the OP to behave differently just because Rand is different - otherwise everything would be different for everybody. As far as I'm aware, the OP does the same thing for everyone who performs the same weave - the only difference is one of magnitude based on the channeler's strength. Thus, the weave would and should have had the same effect on Rand for Alanna as it did for everyone else.

 

 

The thing is, the One Power doesn't always have to make sense, and if the bond can compel channellers, then Rand's ta'veren status is the only other variable that could explain his resistance to it.

 

Hrm. Perhaps relative strength in the power determines it; that would explain how the Asha'man can use the bond to compel female Aes Sedai, but female Aes Sedai can't compel in reverse, since Rand is so much stronger than any female Aes Sedai. 

 

When were Flynn, Narishma, and Hopwil compelled using their bond? If they really were compelled, by (presumably weaker) Aes Sedai, then ta'veren may be it. If it was during the Shadar Logoth bit, though, their Aes Sedai may've been leading circles/using Angreals at the time, which might've had an impact.

 

Otherwise the only variable I can think of that *could* explain it would be either ta'veren status or Rand's exceptional thickheadedness -- it's possible that ta'veren all are inherently able to resist Compulsion, for example, as some form of Talent (just like seeing Ta'veren). (Are Mat or Perrin ever Compulsed? Is Rand?) That sort of makes sense from the viewpoint of the Wheel itself, if we think of the Wheel / Pattern as an intelligent entity -- the Wheel isn't going to allow it's Chosen to be jerked around by any two-bit channeller who can throw out a bonding weave (which is all Alanna is).

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3) I don't see how being ta'veren would affect how the bonding weave affected Rand - that doesn't really logically follow, with all due respect. It doesn't make sense for the OP to behave differently just because Rand is different - otherwise everything would be different for everybody. As far as I'm aware, the OP does the same thing for everyone who performs the same weave - the only difference is one of magnitude based on the channeler's strength. Thus, the weave would and should have had the same effect on Rand for Alanna as it did for everyone else.

 

 

The thing is, the One Power doesn't always have to make sense, and if the bond can compel channellers, then Rand's ta'veren status is the only other variable that could explain his resistance to it.

 

Hrm. Perhaps relative strength in the power determines it; that would explain how the Asha'man can use the bond to compel female Aes Sedai, but female Aes Sedai can't compel in reverse, since Rand is so much stronger than any female Aes Sedai. 

 

When were Flynn, Narishma, and Hopwil compelled using their bond? If they really were compelled, by (presumably weaker) Aes Sedai, then ta'veren may be it. If it was during the Shadar Logoth bit, though, their Aes Sedai may've been leading circles/using Angreals at the time, which might've had an impact.

 

Otherwise the only variable I can think of that *could* explain it would be either ta'veren status or Rand's exceptional thickheadedness -- it's possible that ta'veren all are inherently able to resist Compulsion, for example, as some form of Talent (just like seeing Ta'veren). (Are Mat or Perrin ever Compulsed? Is Rand?) That sort of makes sense from the viewpoint of the Wheel itself, if we think of the Wheel / Pattern as an intelligent entity -- the Wheel isn't going to allow it's Chosen to be jerked around by any two-bit channeller who can throw out a bonding weave (which is all Alanna is).

Well, when I say "compelled", I am not talking about the OP Compulsion in the league of what Graendal or even Liandrin uses. Particularly with regards to the bond woven by saidar (which is why I made a point of mentioning the inherent differences in the two halves of the OP). I mean that there must be some component to the bond which makes Warders more biddable, otherwise we're all just reading too much into what RJ said.

 

As far as the other Asha'man are concerned, I am talking about instances where their Aes Sedai have said something, and they've obeyed instantly. Now, of course, you could assume that it's just keen Warders doing what their Aes Sedai want, but I reckon it's got something to do with the bond. I am thinking in particular of the moment Narishma addresses the Salidarian Aes Sedai to tell them about Rand's decision re: the bonding of Asha'man. He's getting more angry and rude as the seconds go by until Merise cautions him, and he quietens down like a puppy.

 

Lastly, your idea that it may just be the Will of the Pattern is a good one. That, too, might account for it, but my mind resists the idea of rules changing for one person, and that notion also contradicts RJ's world, where it seems everything acts the same way for everyone, regardless of whether they are ta'veren or not. Sure, if Rand dodges a spear, it might be because he ducked at the right time, but that didn't stop Semirhage's fireball from ripping his left hand off, did it? :)

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Demon_AS is correct. When Logain and the other Ashaman bonded the Tower Sisters they added that little "extra" to make sure that the AS obeyed them. So there is a difference in the way a bonding occurs. Also, Alanna's bond to Rand hasn't weekend. It's just not as prominant in his head because he has 5 other people in there as well. Avi, Elayne, Min, Moridin and LTT.

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Ok people. Once again--men who are holding saidin are immune to compulsion. That includes the compulsive effect of the bond. We learn this from Sammael in LoC Threads of woven shadow. It is either because saidin itself is so inherently chaotic that it disrupts influence on those who are filled with it, or because of the inherently combative state of men's minds when they are holding saidin. Or both.

 

Rand was holding saidin when Alanna attempted to compel him. She had not done so since. Were he not holding saidin he would have been as compellable as anyone. The same does not hold true for women--in addition to bonded Aes Sedai we see Elayne and Nynaeve compelled by Moghedian whilst holding saidar. This holds true with the above--saidar is naturally tranquil, and women submit to it. Saidin is chaotic, and men fight it.

 

As far as the other Asha'man are concerned, I am talking about instances where their Aes Sedai have said something, and they've obeyed instantly. Now, of course, you could assume that it's just keen Warders doing what their Aes Sedai want, but I reckon it's got something to do with the bond. I am thinking in particular of the moment Narishma addresses the Salidarian Aes Sedai to tell them about Rand's decision re: the bonding of Asha'man. He's getting more angry and rude as the seconds go by until Merise cautions him, and he quietens down like a puppy.

 

No, that is just loyalty. The compulsive elements of the Aes Sedai bond require a weave of Spirit. It would have been witnessed had other Aes Sedai seen it--and it's generally frowned upon anyway.

 

Also, Alanna's bond to Rand hasn't weekend. It's just not as prominant in his head because he has 5 other people in there as well. Avi, Elayne, Min, Moridin and LTT.

 

Actually it may well have. Whatever Elayne did during the Quat Bonding it affected Rand's bond with Alanna--she was knocked out by it. Following that Rand could not sense her as much as he used to be able to. It does indeed seem that it weakend the bond.

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Actually it may well have. Whatever Elayne did during the Quat Bonding it affected Rand's bond with Alanna--she was knocked out by it. Following that Rand could not sense her as much as he used to be able to. It does indeed seem that it weakend the bond.

 

True, but her being knocked out could just be a side effect of more than one person bonding the same man/woman. We'll never know but my assumption is that since Rand loves his women and tolerates Alanna that her bond would naturally feel less. Rand is still able to sense her just as well as before based on the scenes in Far Madding between Rand and Min and then Rand and Alanna.

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