Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[Rocky_Outcrop]

As for why the sword amplifies the taint, I have no proof, but I kind of think it was created after the Strike at SG, between Female AS, and still mostly sane males. The first glimpse of it we get is right before the construction of the Eye. I would assume the taint-flaw is a side-effect of the lacking a buffer. Without a buffer, more and more taint could flow through. As for why the sword lacked a buffer, probably designed that way by the AS, to be a box. They had no idea Saidin could be or would ever be cleansed. With the prophetic return of the Dragon facing the future, they created it with the madness in mind. In a sense, the Aes Sedai could do like Elaida planned, keep the dragon under lock and key until the last battle, let him hold Calandor, linked to sisters, who would meld the flows. Essentially, the DR would be doing nothing but holding the source, and he could still face TG.

 

Hmm I know about the box thing (from Bela's mouth in the book itself no less!) and I agree it is a possible idea. I had thought it was made after men started going nuts and it woud therefore be more likely that the intention is the mad hatter who used it would burn themselves out, a bigger bang at first but less so in the end, but that's not the case as it was made in the breaking. [And also as it is stated many times before that it is a flaw, an accident, unintentional. Not part of the original design.

 

What I meant earlier on in the thread when I said Rand would know his limits because of the CK I meant that as long as he doesn't go as close to the CK in terms of Voltage he should be ok, yeah there is no buffer but I was suggesting that he would at least be a little aware of how close he is to burning out. Obviously he could get carried away, but with no taint magnification (which I presume led to him using Callendor quite recklessly in the past IIRC) he should be ok on that front.

 

I read somewhere here two other things that I wanted to bring into the context of callendor - 1 the AS using the link with a male against a male chosen and not winning - 2 - the last big burn out.

 

1 - what a stupid idea it would be, and also one that an AS would think is a good idea, to have the Dragon use callandor and the women be in control of the link - why would you do that?! You might as well use Taim. Silly notion and would be a total disaster - see seanchan attack on the tower - those AS are more interested in what colour shoes they have on than actually thinking, ever.

2 - Some people have been known to go for one big blast (like that old doll against the shadowspawn in menetherin) - Callandor would be just great for this - no buffer means it is the perfect device for this exact situation - one last big burn out blast. Rand may do this, with alivia in a link with him at the Last Battle.

 

As for Tuon learning AS are humans I hope so, all other nations get torn asunder but the Seanchan have had very llittle in the way of change.

[cuchulain klepto]

Here is what I think will happen:-

 

Galgan will learn from the captured sul'dam that sul'dam can be taught to channel, and so will convince himself that the interests of the Empire require For(tuon)a to be deposed. Hence she will be leashed with an a'dam and imprisoned in the Towers of Midnight, and Galgan will seize the Crystal Throne. This action will provoke a revolt of the sul'dam, who will consider their position threatened. Mat and Rand will rescue For(tuon)a and restore her to the Throne- Mat using cannon against the Seanchan forces loyal to Galgan- but Rand will demand, as the price of his aid, that she swear to obey him (possibly on a spare Oath Road). Hence most of the damane will be unleashed. In the course of these events, For(tuon)a will rescue Egwene from Mesaana- who has been impersonating Silviana, and will now imprison and impersonate Egwene- thus fulfilling Egwene's dream (the sword tied to the back of the Seanchan woman in the dream representing For(tuon)a's potential ability to channel).

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Kudos, I like what you say Klepto

[Diederichos]

Women who are burnt out sense nothing at all. I'm pretty sure that was made clear in the book, there is nothing there to be sensed at all.

[WolfDragonFox]

Everyone on here must watch this video that Dragonmount posted on their Twitter account.  As a film professional I can tell you this is great quality but there are some strangeties in the way they did the questioning...but that isn't really a big issue that will turn you off of it, just a professional observation that distracted me personally.  Anyway I only subscribe to DM's twitter account because every now and again you actually get something good or useful, most other times its useless non WoT related spouts.  Anyway here is the link to the video.

 

http://mythmakersfilm.com/sanderson/SANDERSON_FINAL.mov 

 

It is information for the most part that you probably have read somewhere before but it is nice to see in a short TGS signing documentary.

[JakeBarnes]

I don't know what will happen IN the book, but 10 months out I'm so excited I'll probably piss myself every day for a week after the release.  Especially with so many diferent possibilities.

[Sentinel78]

Hmmmm... BS has gained a little weight since the picture that's he posts to his website!

 

Nutrisystem baby! (otherwise known as well-portioned dog-food).

[lordofsoup]

Here is what I think will happen:-

 

Galgan will learn from the captured sul'dam that sul'dam can be taught to channel, and so will convince himself that the interests of the Empire require For(tuon)a to be deposed. Hence she will be leashed with an a'dam and imprisoned in the Towers of Midnight, and Galgan will seize the Crystal Throne. This action will provoke a revolt of the sul'dam, who will consider their position threatened. Mat and Rand will rescue For(tuon)a and restore her to the Throne- Mat using cannon against the Seanchan forces loyal to Galgan- but Rand will demand, as the price of his aid, that she swear to obey him (possibly on a spare Oath Road). Hence most of the damane will be unleashed. In the course of these events, For(tuon)a will rescue Egwene from Mesaana- who has been impersonating Silviana, and will now imprison and impersonate Egwene- thus fulfilling Egwene's dream (the sword tied to the back of the Seanchan woman in the dream representing For(tuon)a's potential ability to channel).

great post.  i love the silviana thing, never thought of that.  i think tuon would see some sense, if an adam got stuck her.  mat may not take it too well, but on the other hand, he might laugh in her face for a while before helping her

[Sharaman]

Here is what I think will happen:-

 

Galgan will learn from the captured sul'dam that sul'dam can be taught to channel, and so will convince himself that the interests of the Empire require For(tuon)a to be deposed. Hence she will be leashed with an a'dam and imprisoned in the Towers of Midnight, and Galgan will seize the Crystal Throne. This action will provoke a revolt of the sul'dam, who will consider their position threatened. Mat and Rand will rescue For(tuon)a and restore her to the Throne- Mat using cannon against the Seanchan forces loyal to Galgan- but Rand will demand, as the price of his aid, that she swear to obey him (possibly on a spare Oath Road). Hence most of the damane will be unleashed. In the course of these events, For(tuon)a will rescue Egwene from Mesaana- who has been impersonating Silviana, and will now imprison and impersonate Egwene- thus fulfilling Egwene's dream (the sword tied to the back of the Seanchan woman in the dream representing For(tuon)a's potential ability to channel).

Beautiful! Lovely way to tie up all the ends. 

[Sentinel78]

Silviana yelling at the Hall that Elaida should be deposed and suffering imprisonment and maltreatment as punishment for this outburst doesn't really jive with her being Mesaana.

[cuchulain klepto]

Silviana yelling at the Hall that Elaida should be deposed and suffering imprisonment and maltreatment as punishment for this outburst doesn't really jive with her being Mesaana.

 

That's exactly what she wants everyone to think- such is her diabolical cunning.

[Crael123]

Silviana yelling at the Hall that Elaida should be deposed and suffering imprisonment and maltreatment as punishment for this outburst doesn't really jive with her being Mesaana.

 

i kind of agree with sentinel. but aside from the silviana part i enjoyed klepto's post

 

 

siviana is so cool

[Morsmordre]

Supposing Aviendha is Ilyena reborn. I read the first chapter of the EotW and I saw LTT mention that Ilyena had a wonderful voice and could actually sing. I don't remember if anywhere is said that Ilyena could channel but what if she was one of the Twatan? Maybe the song LTT wanted her to sing was their Song? If Aviendha truly is Ilyena and is about to see herself singing the Song, maybe that's the way she's going to find it. Whatever, just a theory.

[WolfDragonFox]

Robert Jordan said souls can't split so this is not a plausible scenario.

[thewalrus777]

Aviendha being Ilyena is a possibility. Because there would be no soul spliting involved. Aviendha probably wouldn't have any of her memories. Birgitte had said that when she was reborn each time, she had no idea who she was, only that she was usually a simple farm girl who happened to pick up a bow. All I can say is that if LTT can be reborn, then others can and will be reborn again. The Horn of Valere proves that your soul does not die when your physical presence is killed. Your soul only ceases to be through death by balefire. If the DO can recycle souls, so can the Creator. And as Ishamael(the most respected philosopher of the AoL)said in the Prologue of EoTW, the battle of good and evil has been eternal, ifinite in it's struggles against one another. IT IS A CYCLE. Even if Rand were to seal the Bore completely like it was before Lanfear bored into it, would still be part of the cycle. It would eventually be bored into again. Yada, yada, yada. Everything comes around again. So you really can't dismiss Ilyena being reborn. Aviendha is as likely as a candidate as any. She is a descended Aiel. And just by having LTT talk of Ilyena singing and having a wonderful voice, one might make the assumption she was Dai'shan Aiel. I wouldn't think it uncommon for Aes Sedai in the AoL to marry. And they probably didn't make any qualms about who they married. It is a theory that really could be considered.

 

I also believe that what Rand does at Tarmon Gai'don, it will be to completely seal the bore...AGAIN. You can't kill the DO. It would havily upset the Pattern, possibly tearing it apart and destroying EVERYTHING. Alsoanother piece of evidence about this whole battle being a cycle. Evry soul being spun out into the pattern time and time again.

[WolfDragonFox]

Okay the problem with your response is that we aren't only talking about Aviendha as being Ilyena reborn.  The talk is of all three of Rands girls being pieces of her soul in 3 bodies.  And by the way once again more uninformed posting by you since it is confirmed that the soul does not die by balefire only that the DO can't get to it when it is.  Now if we consider Aviendha by herself, then yes she or any of the girls "could" be her and none of them could also.  No one is disputing that she could be reborn as once again RJ and BS both stated that all souls are reborn not just some and they are not always spun to the same ethnicity or culture so that again is not an issue and they are all unique in that they always have the same path choices but end up either as the good, bad, or indifferent version of themselves.  There is no evidence that Aviendha can sing but sure she could find the song in the columns in Rhuidean. 

[thewalrus777]

What i was to understand is that when you are killed with balefire, you simply ceased to be. Soul and all. Never to be reborn again. Thus why the DO can't reincarnate his Forsaken. The simply cease to exist. That's why it's so dangerous. When someone dies, their thread does not. That thread is merely put aside until its rewoven into the Pattern. Like they've stated before about balefire, when you start using it in mass quantities, it literally tears the pattern apart. It's like starting to unravel a sweater, it only gets worse and will eventually get destroyed. Because your not just making someone cease to exist, but destroying a thread that has existed essential forever. And yes i know there is no soul splitting, thus why i dismissed it immediately. The reason i'm really clued in to the Ilyena is reborn theory is because of Gaidal Cain's and Birgitte's relationship. I would assume they ta'veren being tied to the HoV. It seems only truly important figures in history are tied to it. It would only lead me to assume that Rand/LTT is the strongest ta,veren ever, therefore tying Ilyena's soul to his. I believe these 2 souls will always be connected, no matter what time frame or age. I believe IMO that Aviendha or Elayne would be very suitable possibilities for her rebirth.

[WolfDragonFox]

Okay I get you and understand where you are coming from with the Ilyena thing, as many others are of similar opinions.  What I want you to understand is that Robert Jordan and also Brandon Sanderson have both stated that Balefire does not destroy the soul.  The specifics are unknown but from what I gather about the circumstances in which the DO does and doesn't resurrect souls, only a regular death gives him access to the thread (by regular I mean anything else besides Balefire and Mashadar(and propably Machin Shin)).  Since Balefire burns the thread only the Creator and the pattern can reweave it. Basically what i'm saying here is the DO needs the actual thread of the pattern in death to reincarnate a soul.  Since the thread is gone but not the soul the pattern is damaged but repairs itself eventually with its various repair modes like spinning out ta'varen or reweaving heroes that will grow up and prevent thread tearing.  Once again this is my own version of an explanation on how I see that this works, the main point you should take from this is that the RJ and BS said this.  Basically the souls of all the forsaken and others that have been balefied will eventually come around again and be rewoven into the pattern and those souls reborn will make choices to good evil or indifferent.  Also he says a soul carries all traits including channeling ability so they will not be reborn a different sex but can be any ethnicity and will have all inborn abilities that the soul carries.

[thewalrus777]

Ok, I get what your saying now. The thread(according to RJ and BS)is seperate of the soul. The thread only being physically able to be reached by the DO. And balefire only destroying the thread and not the soul. Now it kinda makes a lot more sense to me. I was just always under the assumption that Balefire destroyed everything, thread and soul. Once again you've cleared up something actually quite important for me. I just really hope my assumption of Ilyena being reborn in some fashion comes to fruition. I don't think RJ or BS would be that cruel to us and have her reborn, but as someone else. That theory(and that's all it is, because there is no real evidence, just circumstantial philosophy)would be awesome if it came to pass. Especially if Avi goes to Rhuidean and while she takes her journey back in time, she learns the song that the "lost ones" are looking for. So many possibilities, and so little to time.

 

One thing for sure though is that Mat and Perrin's storylines will be finished by the end of ToM. We all know what Rand still has to do. Only Perrin, Mat, and Elayne's story arcs are really unfinished. Of course their are still some loose ends with Egwene and Nynaeve, but those can just be easily taken care of with a few chapters. And besides if a AMoL is nothing but TG, then ToM is when everything gets thrown on the table. Every story arc fulfilled.

[WolfDragonFox]

Yeah I actually do hope that theory of Ilyena being reborn is true, funny thing though is I also thought the best possibility was Avi or Elayne but I can't help since Rand (though forced) almost killed Min and not one of the other two that maybe she is Ilyena..who knows. 

 

As for the Mat and Perrin arcs being finished, Their arc isn't done till the very end after the last battle.  Now granted, a lot of the things we have been waiting on for a long time should be wrapped up but unless the any still relevant characters are killed off or left out of the final two books, none of the main arcs will be over.  TG is still part of the journey.  Not trying to argue semantics just saying...

 

No prob on the clarification though.  And BS did say that in ToM we will see prophesies being fulfilled at "breakneck speed."  I don't think it means he'll rush them to get them in but that it means lots of the prophesies left out there will be coming to fulfillment back to back to back.  Can't wait for that.

[Sharaman]

You may have a crazy situation where the last book covers just one day or something like that.

There'll be too much happening at that stage.

 

[Anoxanmore]

The last book better not be less than 900 pages, I shall be a sad panda the day that happens.

 

I actually though Illyena was Min, due to the no channeling and etc.

[Crael123]

The last book better not be less than 900 pages, I shall be a sad panda the day that happens.

 

I actually though Illyena was Min, due to the no channeling and etc.

 

I agree. that, or she was never reborn

[WolfDragonFox]

Sweet two members plus me makes three on the Min is Ilyena or bust train...lol I'm sure there are more passengers though.  And I agree with the page count...personally I hate that anything that potentially could be in the books from Jordan's notes will be excluded.  I know people want this series wrapped up but personally I want as many books and pages as it takes to put Everything in there to wrap up all character arcs and plotlines.  But that's just me.  I hope since these are our final two novels I want them to be as large as the binding makes possible so yes 900+ pages for the remaining two and wish TGS was longer too.  But thats out now and no go backs....lol

[linkgoron]

I will be extremely disappointed if either Min or Elayne or Avi will turn out to be Ilyena reborn.