Is moridin a fool or is shaitan clueless?

[sheikh chilli]

we saw the guy come from no where in shador lagoth in ACOS. He actually helps rand and because of him sammael is dead.

 

now why would ishamael reborn help rand al thor against one his own? especially when in winter's heart he gives the order to capture or kill rand al thor's attempt to cleanse saidin.

 

It seems to me that this whole business of trying to convert someone to the dark side is absolutely hog wash when it comes to rand. Ishy failed twice and died in book 3. what the hell is he and shaitan playing at?

 

Book 7 would have been the perfect timing for moridin to off his rand al thor. instead his forsaken troops are dropping like flies and getting captured. It just screams total forsaken incompetence to me. or may be the DO is not so great after all judging by his retarded orders

[Builder]

I love the composition and the wording in the post above.

 

Seriously, I would say that the DO and Moridin have their own agendas which might not align with the rest of the Forsaken agendas. I believe others can fill more on that. Tbh I've kinda dropped the series, but I will read the 12 book all the way.

[Kadere]

Ok, this is really not very difficult to understand. TEotW through TDR Ishy is trying to turn Rand. Then Ishy is killed at the end of TDR. The other Forsaken are taking over varies lands and gaining power and setting forth on their own plots for world domination, and if they can kill Rand in the process that's all well in good.

 

But LoC things change. The DO puts a "no kill" order out on Rand. The mission becomes to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Whether you believe that the "Lord of Chaos" isn't anyone specific, or specifically refers to Rand or the DO himself, it doesn't matter really. The point is to allow things to continue as they are, but create as much chaos and confusion as possible so that Rand loses his grip. So then you've got Mesaana trying to kidnap Rand, and you've got Semirhage placing Aran'gar in with the Salidar Aes Sedai and leading the Seanchan to attack, you've got Graendal tearing Arad Doman apart, and Sammael sending the Shaido Aiel all over the world to rape and pillage as they see fit.

 

But because Sammael breaks the rule by being openly hostile toward Rand (though he does create much chaos), Moridin and presumably the DO decide that Sammael has to go. So FOLLOWING THE NO KILL ORDER Moridin helps Rand kill Sammael in Shadar Logoth.

 

By the end of tPoD, Osan'gar goes nuts and he and his Asha'man followers attack Rand openly, which must coincide with the "no kill" order being revoked, because in WH we see that now Moridin is saying that the new rule is kill Rand at all costs to keep him from using the Cheoden Kal.

 

Later in KoD the order becomes "kill Mat and Perrin, leave Rand for the Nae'blis."

 

So regardless of how easy it could have been to kill Rand at Shadar Logoth in ACoS that was not what the DO wanted, and so Moridin didn't do it. The rule may have changed shortly after, but at the time they were letting him live and creating chaos so that the people of the world wouldn't unite behind him. And they pulled that off beautifully.

[OptimusPrime]

I love the composition and the wording in the post above.

 

Seriously, I would say that the DO and Moridin have their own agendas which might not align with the rest of the Forsaken agendas. I believe others can fill more on that. Tbh I've kinda dropped the series, but I will read the 12 book all the way.

 

Come back to the Light my friend! Im not doing a full reread before TGS but Iv started again from LoC. Love the scale events rise up to when Rand announces the amnesty.

 

Regarding Moridins actions concerning Sammael. I believe Sammael was close to disobeying the leave Rand unharmed order-in fact when the Watcher is watching Sammael says that perhaps someone (cant remember who) has misinterpretted the don harm Rand order. This, I believe, is actually Sammael getting it wrong himself. I think Sammael was close enough to disobeying crucial orders that Moridin decided he had to go, and he was watching Rand about to kill Sammael which is what Moridin wanted. Sammael brought Rands attention to himself, causing Rand to look for him; so Moridin decides to help Rand kill Sammael so Sammael cant get any closer to messing stuff up. It was a good job Moridin was there as well, to help Rand out of that hole.

[Tyrell]

Yeah, with the CK and a girl to use them with him Rand could threaten the DO, as Lanfear proposed the two of them could. So Rand has to go. Although it does appear that gaining control of the Dragon is a very important victory condition for the Dark One.

[mb]

Moridin is Ishamael reborn?  reborn is the wrong term; Ishamael resurrected is more accurate.

 

Sammael dead because of Moridin's help?  That is debatable; Sammael was killed by Mashadar, Mashadar I take could not be ordered by anyone.  And Mashadar might have found Sammael without Moridin's help.

 

The title question, the answer to that could be both or neither; not necessarily one or the other.

 

The order does not seem 'do not kill Rand'; but could be paraphrased as either 'Spread chaos' or 'Let chaos spread' or both.

Sammael transporting the Shaido to different places, that could be interpreted as spreading chaos.

 

The reason Moridin gave the advice might have been due to the Dark One not needing Sammael any more.

 

[Thor]

sammuel wasn't killed by mashadar, he was killed by rand.

 

if rand didn't balefire the balecony, sammuel wouldn't have been trapped before he died and could have got away from mashadar easily.

[Mr Ares]

sammuel wasn't killed by mashadar, he was killed by rand.

Q: "It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?"

 

A: "Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!"

 

-CNN chat transcript, 12 December 2000

Thor, I'm so glad we have you here to correct RJ's little misunderstandings.

 

Sammael dead because of Moridin's help? That is debatable

No it isn't.

 

The order does not seem 'do not kill Rand'

There is a do not kill Rand order in place.

[sheikh chilli]

do not kill rand order is the most retarded order ever seen. forgetting the fact that ishy failed twice to convince rand al thor and paid for it with his life.

 

so does shaitan think it will turn out to be different this time?

 

it strikes me as totally ridiculous. especially when moridin gave the order to take or kill rand when he uses the choden kal in WH.

 

shaitan and moridin are so stupid and this idiocy of kill no don't kill rand BS orders will prove to be their undoing

[Thor]

sammuel wasn't killed by mashadar, he was killed by rand.

Q: "It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?"

 

A: "Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!"

 

-CNN chat transcript, 12 December 2000

Thor, I'm so glad we have you here to correct RJ's little misunderstandings.

 

Sammael dead because of Moridin's help? That is debatable

No it isn't.

 

The order does not seem 'do not kill Rand'

There is a do not kill Rand order in place.

 

rj is talking about mashadar getting the killing blow.  but without rand's balefire, mashadar woudlnt' have even got close to sammuel.  rand killed sammuel, end of story.  that's the whole point of balefire, cause and result.

 

if lan had not gone to nynaeve's aid, would you say it's the river that killed nynaeve? no, it's moghedien who killed her.

[OptimusPrime]

sammuel wasn't killed by mashadar, he was killed by rand.

Q: "It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?"

 

A: "Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!"

 

-CNN chat transcript, 12 December 2000

Thor, I'm so glad we have you here to correct RJ's little misunderstandings.

 

Sammael dead because of Moridin's help? That is debatable

No it isn't.

 

The order does not seem 'do not kill Rand'

There is a do not kill Rand order in place.

 

rj is talking about mashadar getting the killing blow.  but without rand's balefire, mashadar woudlnt' have even got close to sammuel.  rand killed sammuel, end of story.  that's the whole point of balefire, cause and result.

 

if lan had not gone to nynaeve's aid, would you say it's the river that killed nynaeve? no, it's moghedien who killed her.

 

You dont say the river because its not alive. Mashadar is alive and got the killing blow; Mashadar killed him.

[Graendals favourite]

As a further point, I actually think, in regards to Moridin, Sammael sealed his fate when he let Moridin know Graendal believed Sammael had been promised Nae'blishood aCoS Patterns Within Patterns:

 

The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae'blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomorrow's. The watcher had seen truth change a hundred times between a single sunrise and sunset. More than once he had changed it himself. He considered going back and killing the seven women in the clearing. They would die easily; he doubted they knew how to form a true circle. The black flecks filled his eyes, a horizontal blizzard. No, he would let that run its course. For now.

 

This coincides with Graendal's thoughts in tPoD New Alliances:

As it issued its commands-- a visit to this Moridin was first, is seemed; she would need to be on her guard against Moghedien, and perhaps Cyndane also, taking revenge for her brief use of Compulsion; she doubted the girl was any more forgiving than the Spider-- she decided to keep to herself the letter she had sent to Rodel Ituralde. Nothing she was told indicated that her actions would be displeasing to the Great Lord, and she still had to consider her own position. Moridin, whoever he was, might be Nae'blis today, but there was always tomorrow.

 

Moridin still had to establish himself after his rebirth. He was given Moghedien and Lanfear as servants, but the rest were another matter. I doubt the Dark One would trust all power to Moridin. Moridin himself is extremely untrustworthy. She made an alliance there with Graendal, and this seems evident if you think you know what to look for in the future teaparties, Graendal seems to have the news before it comes, as Demandred once notes. Graendal on the other hand seems to want an alliance with Demandred. Moridin has also the aspect that to others, he must at one point or the other succumb to the True Power since he only uses that.

 

Anyway, to the point of the thread, I think Sammael announced himself as a threat to Moridin's own position, and Moridin would prefer Rand to win over him.

[sheikh chilli]

no wonder the forsaken are getting taken down and their numbers are dwindling. it seems whatever robert jordan has said the forces of light are still holding up pretty well.

 

shaitan's order of not killing rand will proce to be his undoing.

[draconian]

if this battle has happened a 1000s times as ishamael and hawkwing have said

then it stands to reason that victory isnt about simply taking over the world and killing the dragon

maybe the DO cant get out of his prison unless the dragon unlocks the gate who knows

i would bet the DO knows whats hes doing hes fought this battle a 1000 times and has his own goal

[OptimusPrime]

if this battle has happened a 1000s times as ishamael and hawkwing have said

then it stands to reason that victory isnt about simply taking over the world and killing the dragon

maybe the DO cant get out of his prison unless the dragon unlocks the gate who knows

i would bet the DO knows whats hes doing hes fought this battle a 1000 times and has his own goal

 

Maybe the Dragon is the only one who can be manipulated into Breaking the Seals. Nobody else would dare

[Balefire to da face!]

I do agree that it can seem to be a suspicious author's tool to allow Rand to baby step his way to competence in the first few books instead of just being squashed like a bug.

 

On the other hand, what would the DO get if he killed Rand then? We know he controls the dead, and Ishy, I beleive, says that they would prefer to have a live Dragon to a dead one, but what use would the sheepherder in the first couple books be alive or dead.

 

Perhaps the DO is just allowing Rand to be forged into what he wants. This would make sense with the order from LoC....let Rand be forged into the Dragon Reborn, but make sure not to allow him to unite the world. Spread chaos.

 

This is also consistent with the idea that once Rand did something truly out of control(cleanse Saiden) the DO saw that it was finally time to reign him in, dead or alive.

[mb]

Maybe the Dragon is the only one who can be manipulated into Breaking the Seals. Nobody else would dare

I guess you mean only light sided one.  Some other light-sided person might also be manipulated; maybe through the argument of Tarmon Gaidon needing to be soon.

 

[OptimusPrime]

On the other hand, what would the DO get if he killed Rand then? We know he controls the dead, and Ishy, I beleive, says that they would prefer to have a live Dragon to a dead one, but what use would the sheepherder in the first couple books be alive or dead.

 

My personal belief on this is that at first the Shadows goal is to get Rand on their side. This would mean if, for example, he was raised as Nae'blis and made immortal, then when the Wheel turns and the Dragon is supposed to be reborn, he cant be, because Rand is still alive and with the Shadow. So, when the Light next needs the Dragon, the Shadow would already have the previous Rand, the previous Dragon, to use against the world he should be saving. But, later in the series, my belief is that it is no longer about just getting Rand on side. I think the Dark One realizes Rand will be difficult to get hold of and so have put their main effort into pulling down the Lights assets from the inside. Making it so when the Light feel theyre ready to defend their world, all their defenses will crumble with the first gust of wind.

 

Imagine what it would be like now in the series, if despite all the prophecies, the Shadow had turned Lews Therin last time. Imagine that even though prophecies said Lews Therin would be reborn, he hadnt died. That even now, when his rebirth was necessary, he is still alive and serving the Shadow. The man whos rebirth would save the world was fighting against the world. You get the idea, come the Last Battle the Dark One would stand there waiting for the Light to do something, with their own Champion at his right shoulder. That is what image I get from the manipulations towards Rand early on. The Shadow want him, because his presence gives the Light the shred of hope they have, and even that is more than the Shadow feel comfortable with.

 

Maybe the Dragon is the only one who can be manipulated into Breaking the Seals. Nobody else would dare

I guess you mean only light sided one.  Some other light-sided person might also be manipulated; maybe through the argument of Tarmon Gaidon needing to be soon.

 

 

If anyone else broke them Rand would kill them in the heartbeat he had spare before the Last Battle began. Nobody would be stupid enough to willingly break the seals when it isnt their job to do so, not when it is believed so fervently that it will start the end of the world as they know it.

[OsaroLJ]

"The Fisher King" monologue is your friend.

 

Whoever captures the Fisher has the best chance of winning. If the Fisher manages to die, the game repeats itself.

 

I believe (not based on facts) that the Fisher has died everytime...thus the cyclical time-line the book is written in.

 

The more I think about this, the more this story line reminds me of the biblical story of Job. It's all one big game.

[Mr Ares]

sammuel wasn't killed by mashadar, he was killed by rand.

Q: "It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?"

 

A: "Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!"

 

-CNN chat transcript, 12 December 2000

Thor, I'm so glad we have you here to correct RJ's little misunderstandings.

rj is talking about mashadar getting the killing blow. but without rand's balefire, mashadar woudlnt' have even got close to sammuel. rand killed sammuel, end of story.  that's the whole point of balefire, cause and result.

See, now you're having to backtrack. You said Rand did it, RJ said Mashadar, so now you're saying Mashadar got the killing blow, but it was because of Rand. Even though you quite blatantly said that Mashadar didn't do it, and RJ said it did. The two are at odds.

 

if rand didn't balefire the balecony

What balcony?

[sheikh chilli]

that's just ridiculous. ishy already tried to convert rand twice and he still failed. what makes the DO think it might work a third time?

 

the dragon reborn is the greatest threat to the DO and the DO is still fooling around with him. this whole process of conversion is so retarded. by the time DO realises rand cant be converted it will be too late for him. what a fool. perhaps the forces of light have nothing to worry about.

[OptimusPrime]

that's just ridiculous. ishy already tried to convert rand twice and he still failed. what makes the DO think it might work a third time?

 

the dragon reborn is the greatest threat to the DO and the DO is still fooling around with him. this whole process of conversion is so retarded. by the time DO realises rand cant be converted it will be too late for him. what a fool. perhaps the forces of light have nothing to worry about.

 

Is there anything you like about these books sheikh?

[OsaroLJ]

I am starting to believe that converting Rand is the only way the dark one wins. I think if the DO kills Rand, the Wheel still needs a dragon so it will just weave him right back lol (hence to live you must die, i guess). The Wheel is dead set against losing. Rand MUST be turned or it's over for the the DO in this turning of the Wheel

[OsaroLJ]

that's just ridiculous. ishy already tried to convert rand twice and he still failed. what makes the DO think it might work a third time?

 

the dragon reborn is the greatest threat to the DO and the DO is still fooling around with him. this whole process of conversion is so retarded. by the time DO realises rand cant be converted it will be too late for him. what a fool. perhaps the forces of light have nothing to worry about.

 

What makes you think killing Rand means the DO wins? You think the Wheel is just gonna stand by and watch? And don't you think the DO knows this?

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well, unless TG conviently waits for Rand to grow up again, and also allow the Light to find him, again, I'd say that if Rand is killed its lookin good for the Shadow.