Does anyone else loathe the Aiel?

[Mr Ares]

Food seems to have very little to do with a person's height.

Actually, it is well known that nutrition plays a role in height. That's part of the reason why people are taller than they used to be.

[Braus]

Anyone who could give me their thoughts on how the Aiel economy is, and what money/things actually mean for an Aiel? That is, what i mean, do they like wetlanders try and build bigger and bigger palaces than their competors, or get more and more land, or lifestock etc etc. What kind of philosophy does they have when it comes to greed. Is it rather a greed to become the perfect Aiel? the perfect follower of Ji e toh and a person who is a good warrior/smith/farmer or w/e. Is reputation everything, or does it like usuall all come down to power and wealth?

 

Might be abit unecessary to write all that out, but anyway. My impression of the Aiel is that they are more a enity than the wetlanders. And they dont have the same mentality as wetlanders, or us. You cant call them communists ofc, but they seem in my opinion to be a community that actually work as a group instead of a individual. Thats why i dont think we have seen starving/poor/begging Aiel. Not sure how to continue here, but another example.

Say a country has a high rate of unemployed people who does nothing. If those people instead had gotten the chance to cooperate and work for a unselfish goal, doing different jobs that they can manage, im sure everyone would have it alot better, which im comparing to the Aiel. Everyone seems to be cooperating, doing their duties in the clans.

 

So erm(lol) thats why i think the communities in the waste works. Why people dont starve to death etc and how a people like the Aiel can stay strong and actually increase in numbers.

 

About the genetics, thats what happens when a disciplined "people" pretty much only marry inside their people and have existed long long before the breaking it seems as servants to the old AOL AS. Then later are forced to pretty much walk for years and years in thousands to the waste where the weak dies and the tough survives. Become some kind of Bodyguards, and then warrior clans. I say, if anything thats a pretty good ground to stand on if you want to have the genes to become a strong warrior.

 

wont mention the cavalry cavalry vs infantery... or nvm.

[Yorkie]

I have read the entire thread and find it quite a good read in the majority. I see the debate flowing heavily against the use of cavalry in the books, and this is true. Many times it has been pointed out that the effective use of cavalry comes when certain factors are met.

 

For instance, a good cavalry charge (Done by Heavy Cavalry) on flat, even ground into a body of men, no matter how they are armoured is a good and viable tactic… But only if that charge is then capitalised on by supporting infantry or else as stated the cavalry will soon be enveloped and be come easy targets for a more nimble foe… In this case Aiel… and the advantage done by the charge is wasted.

 

A charge by heavy cavalry was use to break a formation (not pike formations obviously), or roll up the flanks, but since the Aiel don’t fight in this manner then this becomes less viable as they are a flexible mass and not a solid wall.

 

There has also been a reference to when stirrups were in vented, when horses became more important to a make up of a military force. These are true and valid points, but fail to then make the distinction between the different branches cavalry operate in.

 

These are paint brush comments to make it concise,

The charge was the domain for heavy cavalry, they were too heavily encumbered and expensive to be used just to “mop up the field” This was the domain of light cavalry. They where use to break formations and as “shock troops” so the infantry can get stuck in and capitalise on the gaping wound done by them.

 

Light Cavalry was used to counter heavy; again this is a paint bush statement but fits, as they were quicker and able to use mobility where heavies could not in comparison. They were also used to mop up duty, routing “units” (Units used very loosely as a body of men) etc. 

 

i Medieval European Armies: by T. Wise and G. Embleton

 

 

Then you have lancers, but these, until the 19th(ish) century was on the whole classified as light cavalry.

 

Then you need to look, if you are comparing real world history which era fits most closely with the information given in the books (for the comparison on cavalry only.) We can eliminate any era after 13th century as, iirc; there is no mention of plate or even half plate. So we can safely conclude its prior and the dawn of Norman knights.

 

ii Heavy cavalry - Wearing, chain-skirts, pot hats and steel greaves as the core make up of a squadron). 

 

ii [The Complete Encyclopaedia of Arms and Armor: by Ed L. Tarrassuk and C. Blaire

 

So we can safely assume that the cavalry no matter what type is used are using Hand-and-half (Bastard Swords), Two-Hander or Longsword. Neither of these has curved edges for slashing movements to inflict wounds with the minimum of space, energy and momentum. The straight blades require a large arc, momentum, strength or a combination of the above to be effective on horseback. Therefore cavalry tactics require keep speed and space to a maximum and close quarter combat to a minimum. That’s what the supporting infantry is for after all.

 

So why the history lesson, well as some post state to provide proof, provide evidence on a given subject it needed to be put in black and white in order to refute some statements. There are others quotes and what nots so I will touch on them as also, later.

 

The only infantry that can withstand a cavalry charge has either pikes/long spears/halberds or has depth in ranks to absorb the charge and bode it down

 

This statement is true if your fighting an orthodox European style battle. There are some similarities to European cultures, but nowhere, iirc, in the books do two forces line up in formation and fight it out, and then break for tea when the sun goes down. The Wetlanders approach to warfare is as close to orthodox as you can get, but the Aiel they don’t deploy in an orthodox fashion, they don’t fight in an orthodox way.

 

So a charge can be mounted successfully, but will soon be enveloped by the Aiel as there are loose and agile. They can get “inside” the cavalryman with ease and rip him out of the saddle. They will suffer casualties this is a given, but they have numbers, agility and discipline on their side once the cavalry is in close quarters.

 

Even if the Wetlanders got over their distain for infantry and used them in a supporting role “as should be” the Aiel will then envelop the infantry and you have a defeated Wetlander army.

 

The above example is when the Wetlanders “choose” their terrain. Obviously cavalry will get slaughtered in woodlands, uneven terrain and charging up hill.

 

 

I know cavalry can be countered, but the Aiel manifestly don't HAVE anything to counter it. Give a counter to cavalry that the Aiel actually have.

 

Counters that Aiel innately have to cavalry are themselves, fighting in a loose cohesive manner. So these alone mitigate the majority of a cavalry force. Then you have the terrain, no sane man will fight in a situation if he can pick his own ground. And with the scouts the Aiel deploy, you can be sure they can pick there own.

 

But for arguments sake, let’s say they can’t.

 

Then the above example come into play, can it be called a counter in an orthodox way… Possibly not as like you said they don’t have pikes… But they don’t fight in an orthodox way so that in itself becomes a moot point.

 

Dam, look at the time, will post more later …..

 

 

 

[draconian]

As I said before, harsh environments do not produce physically perfect specimens. People don't grow to huge sizes where there is extremely little food or water. If anything they become more compact, hardier, and tougher, they don't turn into Greek Gods. So the evolution argument doesnt work, 3000 years of living in a wasteland doesnt produce a race of 6'6'', stacked superhumans. Populations begin to get that way when they live among plenty, when good nutrition and an adequate calorie intake are guaranteed, not something that has to be scrapped over every day. Look at us now, people are beginning to grow very tall because food is not an issue so the body can grow as much as it likes.

AoL aiel shown in TDR were very tall and large

[Durinax]

The main way to use calvalry against Aiel would be with the infantry charge with flanking maneuvers by the Calvalry to hit just before infantry closed into each other for max effectiveness

[Muad Cheade]

The main way to use calvalry against Aiel would be with the infantry charge with flanking maneuvers by the Calvalry to hit just before infantry closed into each other for max effectiveness

 

That's similar to Mat's first battle with the "Band." The Aiel aren't an all-powerful force. They can/have been defeated before.

 

As for their height, I attribute it to the "inbreeding" of the clans. Their ancestors were the same size they were so over a period of 3,000 years, the strong, large athletic people (the Aiel) were having children with similar people, so obviously they'd remain like they were in the AoL.

[Durinax]

That's similar to Mat's first battle with the "Band." The Aiel aren't an all-powerful force. They can/have been defeated before.

 

Yes but Mat was the first real wetlander to defeat him, other than small battles. But I should remind you that Mat did not fight a decent sized Aiel force without allied Aiel coming in to help out.

After all the only reason the Aiel war ended was because Laman died, rand was born, and there was no point for them to keep on going. Tam and Lan (Tam for sure, Lan I think) said that they could have burned their way to the ocean, and that they suffered no major losses

[wite wo1f]

This was a very interesting thread but the one thing that I wanted to reply to was the horses.

 

You have mentioned that the horsemen wore plate armor as an advantage, however this would in realty be a major disadvantage. Look at the battle of Agincourt, the French knights wore plate armor and while this protected them from the British arrows this also bogged them down. If they were knocked off thier horse, or their horse was killed they would have a very difficult time getting up.

 

Of course this is not really a direct comparison due to other factors such as the mud that also caused problems for the knights, but the point is that plate armor is heavy. If you fall down in battle at all you are not likely to get up again, but with plate armor this would be made worse. I just read the 5th book, (the name escapes me at the moment) and it specifically mentioned the Aiel went after the horses when fighting against the nobles who disobeyed Mat's orders to stay inside the pike. This would essentially take the calvalry out of the battle even if they were not killed.

[Durinax]

the could get up, it would be a task in itself but only a complete idiot would wear armour he could not get up in

 

the Aiel could have targetted the horses because its easier to hit something on level with you than to hit something above you, plus they would have been less armoured

[EramofAmandous]

Also don't forget the shear number of warriors that the Aiel have.

[solarz]

On 7/1/2009 at 8:32 PM, Miltiades said:

I'm on book 6 in my second read through of the series and I realized that I absolutely hate the Aiel.

 

I mean, how the hell can a bunch of nomads with crappy equipment, no armour, no cavalry and no cities defeat the wetland nations?

 

What would be the Aiel's answer to archers? Since they only carry small hide bucklers and wear pajamas into battle. I don't care how skilled a warrior you are, I don't care how young you were when you learned to fight and I don't care how arid and inhospitable your homeland is, if you get shot at under those circumstances you are going to die.

 

Not fielding cavalry is another massive disadvantage, that is an entire arm of your military that you just don't have. You only have to look at our history to see that no matter how good your infantry is, you'll get your ass handed to you if your enemy fields cavalry and you don't. How would the Aiel deal with armoured knights? They seem to use their spears to fight individually and not in any sort of formation (another terrible idea) so they'd be mowed down by a charge from, let's say, some Shienaran heavy cavalry.

 

 

I find it fairly infuriating how Jordan bangs on constantly about how tough the Aiel are. Them and the Asha'man really. But I can accept that the Asha'man are as powerful as he says they are because their power comes from channeling and Jordan decides all the the powers and limits of channeling, so the Asha'man are as badass as he wants them to be.

 

I think in my first read through I was on book 3 or 4 before I realized the Aiel were meant to be humans. Until then I thought they were a separate species like the Ogier.

 

 

 

Does anybody else feel this way? Or am I just a racist?

 

First of all, the Aiel do not have "crappy equipment". They have great equipment. Their bows, arrows, spears, and knives are all well made. Their cadinsor are highly optimized for camouflage and mobility.

 

The Aiel have several answers to archers. First, they could shoot back. Aside from the Two Rivers, everyone in the Wetlands use either short bows or crossbows. The Aiel would have no range disadvantage against short bows, and can outfire crossbows. Second, they could flank the archers. Believe it or not, getting a large number of people to coordinate their actions is really hard. That's why soldiers train all the time just to march in formation. If a battalion of archers are firing in one direction, it's really, really difficult to get them to fire in a different direction.

 

Finally, the Aiel could simply ambush them. Aiel are masters of scouting and camouflage. Most wetland armies do not deploy effective scouts and skirmishers. The Aiel can catch them while they were marching, and decimate them before they could even get into formation.

 

Incidentally, that's how the Aiel would deal with cavalry as well. The siege of Cairhien is a good example of how Aiel fight. Mat spends most of his time trying to find and hide from the Shaido. When he engages them, he either out-scouted them and takes them by surprise, or he has enough time to form up his pikes and hold the Shaido off long enough that they are forced to disengage. When some of his nobles, cavalry, disobeys him and charges into the Shaido, the Shaido simply melted before the charge before reforming ranks behind the horsemen, then proceeding to overwhelm them.

 

The Shienarans have had success against Aiel with their heavy cavalry, but Shienaran heavy cavalry are the finest heavy cavalry among Wetlanders. Most other wetlander armies simply do not have the discipline and training necessary to pull off Shienaran charges.

 

Even the Shienarans respect the Aiel. Shienaran heavy cavalry may be tanks, but the Aiel are Marines. Aiel have unmatched strategic mobility. Tactically, they are certainly not as fast as cavalry, but strategically they can move at a speed that leaves even the best wetlander armies in the dust. Combined with their scouting skills, this means the Aiel almost always get to choose their battleground. They may not be able to stand up against a good heavy cavalry charge on flat terrain, but the heavy cavalry would never be able to catch the Aiel.

[Sabio]

Also most the nations don't have large professional armies and their tactics aren't all that good.  Look at Mats reaction in book 5 where the attitude he faces is basicly calvary is how to win, and the foot guys are looked down upon. Nations such as Tear where the nobles basicly draft their peasants when needed. So the quality of most the armies isn't all that good.

[solarz]

8 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Also most the nations don't have large professional armies and their tactics aren't all that good.  Look at Mats reaction in book 5 where the attitude he faces is basicly calvary is how to win, and the foot guys are looked down upon. Nations such as Tear where the nobles basicly draft their peasants when needed. So the quality of most the armies isn't all that good.

 

Exactly.

 

Remember when Rand was musing about the Seanchan learning from their mistakes? Cadsuane piped in to say that the Great Captains did that too.

 

Think about that for a moment. The height of military competence in the Wetlands was basically people who learned from their mistakes.