Sheriam and her "only 5 people know..." Comment

[cloglord]

I'm working on my re-read, and something struck me about the whole dead greyman incident at the beginning of the TDR.  After Sheriam tells Nyn and Egwene to keep quiet then the two girls go and blab to Elayne.  When Sheriam catches them in this, she remarks that only five people know that a greyman died in the tower, to which Nyn replies "you mean five people and the person who killed him right?"  Sheriam doesn't answer the question.  So now for my question.

 

Did Sheriam simply forget to include the killer in her calculation or did Sheriam kill the greyman and give an accurate count of people who knew about it?

[Thorum]

She can say what she believes. This means that she believes one of those five is the murderer, or that the murderer doesn't fall under "people" (trolloc - another grey man - ...).

 

I don't know who those five people are, but that would be my take on it.

[Neemo]

or she hadnt told siuan yet  :P

[cloglord]

No she includes the Amrylin in that five.

 

Suian, Sheriam, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne.

[Neemo]

did she? remember what you hear is not always what is said

[Kivam]

I'm working on my re-read, and something struck me about the whole dead greyman incident at the beginning of the TDR.  After Sheriam tells Nyn and Egwene to keep quiet then the two girls go and blab to Elayne.  When Sheriam catches them in this, she remarks that only five people know that a greyman died in the tower, to which Nyn replies "you mean five people and the person who killed him right?"  Sheriam doesn't answer the question.  So now for my question.

 

Did Sheriam simply forget to include the killer in her calculation or did Sheriam kill the greyman and give an accurate count of people who knew about it?

 

Sheriam's black, so she probably lied

[Bob T Dwarf]

Really?

 

Where is that proven?

 

She's definitely in something bad.  Nearly up to her neck.  Suffering mightily for it.

 

But, where is it proven that she's actually Black?

[cloglord]

Well we know that there is something up with her as far back as that, becasue she ends up with another dead greyman in her bed, but we don't know that she is black.

 

My question is did she kill the first greyman?  Is her "5 people know about this," an admission or an omission?

[Kadere]

The first greyman in the hall way that she hides with the girls was killed by Slayer.

[Bob T Dwarf]

My question is did she kill the first greyman?  Is her "5 people know about this," an admission or an omission?

 

Good question and a good catch.  I don't have an answer.

[Thorum]

I'm working on my re-read, and something struck me about the whole dead greyman incident at the beginning of the TDR.  After Sheriam tells Nyn and Egwene to keep quiet then the two girls go and blab to Elayne.  When Sheriam catches them in this, she remarks that only five people know that a greyman died in the tower, to which Nyn replies "you mean five people and the person who killed him right?"  Sheriam doesn't answer the question.  So now for my question.

 

Did Sheriam simply forget to include the killer in her calculation or did Sheriam kill the greyman and give an accurate count of people who knew about it?

 

Sheriam's black, so she probably lied

 

Then why is she being tortured still in the Little Tower by Halima?

[mnwhiterose]

Because Halima is bored and torture is always a good escape from the boredom.

 

I don't know, I'm just guessing.  I feel snarky today.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Then why is she being tortured still in the Little Tower by Halima?

 

Assuming it is Halima ( and that hasn't been proven ), probably because he/she isn't certain that Egwene isn't holding anything back about her dreams.  Or, isn't simply lying about them.

 

If you think the Amyrlin is being less than totally forthcoming, torture the person supposedly closest to her and most likely to know the truth in order to verify that you're getting it all.

[Kivam]

I'm working on my re-read, and something struck me about the whole dead greyman incident at the beginning of the TDR.  After Sheriam tells Nyn and Egwene to keep quiet then the two girls go and blab to Elayne.  When Sheriam catches them in this, she remarks that only five people know that a greyman died in the tower, to which Nyn replies "you mean five people and the person who killed him right?"  Sheriam doesn't answer the question.  So now for my question.

 

Did Sheriam simply forget to include the killer in her calculation or did Sheriam kill the greyman and give an accurate count of people who knew about it?

 

Sheriam's black, so she probably lied

 

Then why is she being tortured still in the Little Tower by Halima?

She's not being tortured, she's being punished for failure.

[Aemon raHal]

The first greyman in the hall way that she hides with the girls was killed by Slayer.

 

Can somebody remind my why ?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[AmbeRebmA]

In Winter's Heart we learn from Luc's POV that he killed a Gray Man in the Tower and didn't enjoy it (ch.22). He is almost certainly referring to the Gray Man that shot at Egwene and Elayne back in The Dragon Reborn. They wrapped him in air, but by the time they reached him there was a knife in his chest.

[cloglord]

But there were two dead greymen one with the knife and one later that showed up in Sheriam's Bed I can't remember did Slayer's POV indicate if he killed them both?

 

Here's another Sheriam oddity that I encountered last night....

 

When Egwene comes out of the accepted Terangreal the second time she is going on and on about how they were going to turn Rand using the 13 BA + 13 Fades = bad news formula.  Sheriam seems hesitant about explaining, but does go on to explain how it is possible but ONLY for channelers.  So here's the thing, why doesn't Sheriam seemed disturbed at the notion that Rand could be a channeler, especially considering that Elaida has made such a stink about the fortelling that she had about Rand way back in Camelyn that precipitated the Amrylin Entourage trip to Fal Dara?

[JenLenaMom]

Did Egwene tell her it was about Rand? I thought she just asked in general what happens with the 13+13 senario, but it has been a VERY long time since I did a re-read.

[cloglord]

Yes, she mentions Rand by name as I recall and Sheriam gives a worried look towards Elaida before explaining.

[tnsabregirl]

I just looked this up for y'all. The relevant content is on pages 254-255, Chapter 22, of The Dragon Reborn.

"He said they could turn him to the Shadow," Egwene mumbled. "He said the Myrddraal and the Dreadlords could force him."

 

Sheriam missed a step, and looked around quickly. Elaida was almost back to the table. The Aes Sedai surrounding the ter'angreal stared at it, seeming lost to anything else.

 

In the remainder of the passage, she never mentions Rand's name specifically. When she first steps out the arch, she does whisper, "I couldn't, Rand," just before Elaida dumps water over her head, but Sheriam did not come retrieve her until after that. If she did whisper, there doesn't seem to be an indication that anyone heard who she was referring to.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that in to the discussion.

[Neemo]

No she includes the Amrylin in that five.

 

Suian, Sheriam, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne.

 

she did never say she was going to tell the Amrylin, nor did she ever say who the 5 were who knew of the gray man..i just re read those parts in chapters 15 and 17, she says It will be up to the amrylin, but with everything that has happened, I beleive that she will want to keep this as quiet as possible, you shall speak to none but me, or the amrylin, should she ask first" and then she says in chapter 17 that "if you will not obey an order from me then maybe you will obey an order from the amrylin, come down to watch them heal Mat", she never says that she told Suian, or that she even meant to tell her.

[Elwinn Taron]

But we know she DID tell Suian, because it is Suian who tells Nynaeve about the second gray man--the one in Sheriam's bed.

[Aemon raHal]

In Winter's Heart we learn from Luc's POV that he killed a Gray Man in the Tower and didn't enjoy it (ch.22). He is almost certainly referring to the Gray Man that shot at Egwene and Elayne back in The Dragon Reborn. They wrapped him in air, but by the time they reached him there was a knife in his chest.

 

Thanks,

 

But why did Slayer kill the Gray Man?

And who sent it?

 

Was Slayer ordered by a Forsaken to kill the Gray Man sent by another Forsaken?

Or did the same Forsaken send both?

 

 

 

 

[PlainJane]

In the edition that I have the quote from Sheriam regarding the Gray Man is "Since from Elayne's lack of surprise, you have obviously told her of it - after I told you not to speak of the matter! - then there are exactly seven people in the Tower who know a man was killed today in the novices' quarters, and two of them are men who know no more than that."

 

We can assume the other 5 she is referring to are Nyn, Egwene, Elayne, herself, and someone else. Everyone assumes the someone else is Siuan but notice how Sheriam never actually says the Amyrlin ordered them not to speak of it. Sheriam says "If an order from the Mistress of Novices carries no weight with you ... perhaps you will obey one from the Amyrlin Seat. You are to speak of this to no one except the Mother or me." Nice wording to make them THINK the Amyrlin had ordered it when in fact she had not. Also note in the preceeding quote Sheriam says "seven people IN THE TOWER" that doesn't mean she doesn't know of other people who know about it. Others who are now outside of the Tower or who were outside when it happened, perhaps the Darkfriend who gave her the order to make sure he wasn't caught or something like that hmmmmm.

 

Now my question is this ... Sheriam is clearly going to some length not to lie. Perhaps she knows Nyn and Egwene are looking for Black Ajah and does not want to get trapped in a lie and give herself away. But just a few chapters (hours in the story) later she tells a lie.

 

Sheriam says to Egwene during her Accepted test "It is not so easily done. It is not a thing done, so far as I know ... since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords - Darkfriends who could channel - weaving the flows through thirteen Myrdraal. You see? Not easiy done. There are no Dreadlords today." Given her station, her closeness to Siuan, and her earlier comments to Nyn and Egwene about not mentioning the Gray Man to anyone I can't believe that Sheriam doesn't know about the Black Ajah. If she knows about the Black Ajah and what happened in the Tower with Liandrin and her "friends", then she has to know she's lying when she says "There are no Dreadlords today". It could be that she is one of the few who doesn't know (or else refuses to believe) that the Black Ajah exists, but that seems highly doubtful given everything else we know. Add that to what we see happening in later books with Sheriam and I'm leaning towards her being Black Ajah herself.

 

However, if I'm misreading or forgetting something please correct me.

 

My only other conclusing is that since the Black Ajah don't refer to themselves as Dreadlords, perhaps Sheriam believes it's not a lie to say no Dreadlords exist even when she knows the Black Ajah does.

[Braus]

As far as i remember gray men kill themselves, suicides, if they fail(or succeed). To remove all traces?