has egwene done the nasty?

[Graendals favourite]

2) The author of this book. Do you REALLY think RJ would have written about rape in such a casual matter? REALLY??

All the time, this is one reason these aren't childrens' books but children can read them. It is like people saying there is not much violence in the books and you wonder if they understood a word even when they first read the prologue to tEotW, let alone later events. I don't know if I can think of much more violent that horrendously killing your entire family and friends and casually walking among the carnage. You could say it is a test whether it happens in real life too: do you unknowingly laugh at rapes, or ignore the destruction of a person like in Aram's case, when it is not highlighted to you in the way the tabloids would do? When you shift the facts a little, do you no longer notice something terrible if it is not presented as such, for example the person who witnessed it did not realise what was wrong. What if you acted without thinking through the obvious consequences, perhaps from someone else's point of view? It's not only entertainment, after all.

[Shard]

That's the whole point of subtly and a reason I think that some didn't like the later books. They didn't realize the subtle flows of the story.

 

To point out why *I* missed certain things like in the case of Jacim Carrdin, only his first name was said and I usually see his last name so I really thought it was someone else. I understand now what RJ was going for but I just expected to find the Fade flaying him alive. Drowning is still a bad way to go and he was a horrible man for letting his family be murdered that way. Funny part to it is that I think he actually felt bad as well, at least for some of them.

 

As for Morgase *sigh* I hate the White cloaks and I had a bad habit of just skipping or skimming their chapters if the main's aren't there. So subsequently I missed Pidron Niall getting assassinated first time through lol. I don't do that any more but still...

 

So then the question we can ask at this point was what purpose RJ had for Mat being subjagated and "raped" by Tylin. Was it to humble him? Was it really meant to be a funny or satirical peice of the story?

 

It is odd but I find my self more outraged by the actions of Elyane and Nynaeve in CoS then Tylin's.

[Serenla]

It isn't a serious situation.  Mat isn't in danger and only his pride is hurt, which is actually kind of funny.  That doesn't change the fact that he was raped.

I am starting to see why we are having a difference in opinion.  IMO, rape is the worst crime a person can commit other than molesting children.  It takes away a person's faith in themself, destroys their selfworth, and makes them feel unsafe and unclean in their own body.  I have never seen a rape presented in any other way, I guess it could happen but since I have never heard of an example of this, I have no reason to believe that this is one.

Viewing my opinion on rape, how can I see the idea of someone being raped as not serious?

 

Really.  It happens immediately before they have sex for the first time:

Why would she bring him . . . ? His face was suddenly as crimson as the bedpost. No. She could not mean to . . . It was not decent! It was not possible!

 

You cant do this to me, he mumbled at her, and if his voice was a touch breathy and shrill, he surely had cause.

 

Watch and learn, my kitten, Tylin said, and drew her marriage knife.

The only thing that Mat says out loud in this passage is "You can't do this to me."

This to me is not definative.  I have heard people say I bet you can't do this or that so many times that to me, telling someone they can't do something is like waving a red flag in front of a bull.  I have also heard you can't do (some improbable thing), after which whoever is being told that, promptly attempts said improbable thing.  Maybe this entire discussion boils down to the symantics of this sentence...  I can tell you this, if I didn't want someone to do something, the last thing I would do is tell them that they can't.

2) The author of this book. Do you REALLY think RJ would have written about rape in such a casual matter? REALLY??

All the time, this is one reason these aren't childrens' books but children can read them. It is like people saying there is not much violence in the books and you wonder if they understood a word even when they first read the prologue to tEotW, let alone later events. I don't know if I can think of much more violent that horrendously killing your entire family and friends and casually walking among the carnage. You could say it is a test whether it happens in real life too: do you unknowingly laugh at rapes, or ignore the destruction of a person like in Aram's case, when it is not highlighted to you in the way the tabloids would do? When you shift the facts a little, do you no longer notice something terrible if it is not presented as such, for example the person who witnessed it did not realise what was wrong. What if you acted without thinking through the obvious consequences, perhaps from someone else's point of view? It's not only entertainment, after all.

This is the beauty of RJ's writing, different situations have a feel to them.  Serious ones feel serious.  There is a sadness that surrounds Aram, there are warnings from characters like Elyas to make the reader aware of the possibility, Min's viewing of him, I think Egwene even dreams of him in dark, sad way.  And the Eye of the World prologue was so sad and disturbing that I almost missed out on this series.  There was a funny aspect to it (crazy guy inviting evil guy into his house, laughing at his age in the mirror), but written in such a way that you cringe as you read it.  The scene with Mat and Tylin read as funny, Mat's eyes are popping out of his head, he's breathy and squeaky, RJ wanted us to laugh and I cannot see him wanting people to laugh at a rape.

Obviously, RJ's style of writing is sophisticated enough that if you blink, you can miss details that can change the way you interpret events, but as far as I have noticed, in every other moral delima in the series the signs are there.  This one is handled the same thoughout.  Mat's annoyed that she hit on him and everyone laughs.  Where are the signs that this isn't really as funny at second glance?

 

[Elgee]

He'll pinch their bottoms and try to get any of them into bed, if they show the least hint of willingness. Never has there been any indication that he would "do what he's told" by anyone, if he didn't REALLY want to.

I don't think Mat ever pinched a bottom.  Also, he would never force a woman into sex.  Here is a quote which demonstrates that:

He had given jewelry to other women, Maidens and others; he liked giving things to pretty women, even if all he got in return was a smile. He never expected more. If a woman did not enjoy a kiss and a cuddle as much as he did, what was the point?

 

I never said that Mat forced women into sex. I said he knows when they want to be pursued, and when not.

 

Excellent point about RJ and his writing.  No where else in the WOT has RJ been flippant about a serious situation, that is proof enough to me that he wouldn't have done so about rape.

 

It isn't a serious situation.  Mat isn't in danger and only his pride is hurt, which is actually kind of funny.  That doesn't change the fact that he was raped.

 

It isn't a serious situation ... only his pride is hurt ... funny ... BUT HE WAS RAPED??

 

You clearly don't have a clue what rape is. It's serious. It hurts a hell of a lot more than your pride. It's NOT funny!

 

Serenla said it better than I could:

 

The scene with Mat and Tylin read as funny, Mat's eyes are popping out of his head, he's breathy and squeaky, RJ wanted us to laugh and I cannot see him wanting people to laugh at a rape.

 

Obviously, RJ's style of writing is sophisticated enough that if you blink, you can miss details that can change the way you interpret events, but as far as I have noticed, in every other moral delima in the series the signs are there.  This one is handled the same thoughout.  Mat's annoyed that she hit on him and everyone laughs.  Where are the signs that this isn't really as funny at second glance?

 

 

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

IMO, rape is the worst crime a person can commit other than molesting children.  It takes away a person's faith in themself, destroys their selfworth, and makes them feel unsafe and unclean in their own body.  I have never seen a rape presented in any other way, I guess it could happen but since I have never heard of an example of this, I have no reason to believe that this is one.

Viewing my opinion on rape, how can I see the idea of someone being raped as not serious?

That definition has a big flaw: it permits date-rape drugs (if they don't remember they won't feel unsafe, unclean, or worthless).  Read The Canterbury Tales if you want a story that treats rape lightly.

 

I never said that Mat forced women into sex. I said he knows when they want to be pursued, and when not.

Oh.  I thought you implied that he wouldn't stop if he REALLY wanted to have sex.

 

It isn't a serious situation ... only his pride is hurt ... funny ... BUT HE WAS RAPED??

 

You clearly don't have a clue what rape is. It's serious. It hurts a hell of a lot more than your pride. It's NOT funny!

Mat was raped under funny circumstances.  Rape doesn't have to hurt.  Some people might even enjoy it.  Have you ever heard of a "rape fantasy", or roleplay?  What about people who are drugged and don't remember being raped, and therefore do not feel hurt?

 

RJ wanted us to laugh and I cannot see him wanting people to laugh at a rape.

This is a story which pits male chauvinism against truly empowered females.  I can totally understand RJ writing a scene in which a woman rapes the "playboy" character, and treating it like a joke.

[Graendals favourite]

This is the beauty of RJ's writing, different situations have a feel to them.  Serious ones feel serious.  There is a sadness that surrounds Aram, there are warnings from characters like Elyas to make the reader aware of the possibility, Min's viewing of him, I think Egwene even dreams of him in dark, sad way.  And the Eye of the World prologue was so sad and disturbing that I almost missed out on this series.  There was a funny aspect to it (crazy guy inviting evil guy into his house, laughing at his age in the mirror), but written in such a way that you cringe as you read it.  The scene with Mat and Tylin read as funny, Mat's eyes are popping out of his head, he's breathy and squeaky, RJ wanted us to laugh and I cannot see him wanting people to laugh at a rape.

Obviously, RJ's style of writing is sophisticated enough that if you blink, you can miss details that can change the way you interpret events, but as far as I have noticed, in every other moral delima in the series the signs are there.  This one is handled the same thoughout.  Mat's annoyed that she hit on him and everyone laughs.  Where are the signs that this isn't really as funny at second glance?

Well, I disagree, I think it is much more complex than that, just like real life. There is not always some one sentiment that should follow through, but things have many sides often depending on the perspective. Certainly there is no automatic cue for the audience to laugh or cry like in a tv show. Perhaps there is also the author's opinion on the matter, but I think in no way does that obviously shine through. The signs aren't always screamed at you because that's life, which is something in my opinion RJ would have thought just as important to have than that it is possible to figure out the straight of matters. Sometimes it isn't possible, but for a work that discusses good and evil, right and wrong, honour and obligation, at least there probably are nontrivial cases to ponder. Mostly you look through the pov character's eyes after all, if he or she wouldn't notice something or some aspect or consider it noteworthy, chances are you will have to figure it out on your own.

[Elgee]

IMO, rape is the worst crime a person can commit other than molesting children.  It takes away a person's faith in themself, destroys their selfworth, and makes them feel unsafe and unclean in their own body.  I have never seen a rape presented in any other way, I guess it could happen but since I have never heard of an example of this, I have no reason to believe that this is one.

Viewing my opinion on rape, how can I see the idea of someone being raped as not serious?

 

That definition has a big flaw: it permits date-rape drugs (if they don't remember they won't feel unsafe, unclean, or worthless).  Read The Canterbury Tales if you want a story that treats rape lightly.

 

Mat wasn't drugged, knocked unconscious, or otherwise unaware of what was happening. How do you think most people who have been raped after being drugged are aware that SOMETHING wrong happened? I don't understand what you're trying to get at here with that, or by dragging Canterbury Tales into it to try and support your view. You cannot equate RJ as a man and author, with Chaucer, on this subject.

 

I never said that Mat forced women into sex. I said he knows when they want to be pursued, and when not.

 

Oh.  I thought you implied that he wouldn't stop if he REALLY wanted to have sex.

 

It isn't a serious situation ... only his pride is hurt ... funny ... BUT HE WAS RAPED??

 

You clearly don't have a clue what rape is. It's serious. It hurts a hell of a lot more than your pride. It's NOT funny!

 

Mat was raped under funny circumstances.  Rape doesn't have to hurt.  Some people might even enjoy it.  Have you ever heard of a "rape fantasy", or roleplay?  What about people who are drugged and don't remember being raped, and therefore do not feel hurt?

 

With "Rape fantasy" or roleplay, both parties are willing. That's why it's not actually rape. It's play acting ...

 

I wasn't referring to physical hurt, but emotional and mental. As stated several times now, both male and female victims can experience orgasm during rape, but that is a purely biological reaction. Mentally and emotionally, they do NOT enjoy it. For drugs, see above.

 

RJ wanted us to laugh and I cannot see him wanting people to laugh at a rape.

 

This is a story which pits male chauvinism against truly empowered females.  I can totally understand RJ writing a scene in which a woman rapes the "playboy" character, and treating it like a joke.

 

I can't. Nothing I've ever read about the man gives even the faintest hint that he would treat the subject matter in this way. Just look at the way he described what Eamon Valda did to Morgaese. It's clear that he did not physically force her, but basically blackmailed her into having sex with him. Yet RJ makes it CLEAR in her POVs that she feels violated in the extreme, to the point of wanting to take her own life. Her reaction is not purely due to her own "consent", but because of the act itself (as illustrated by her flinching from being touched by men, covering herself from head to toe, etc).

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

If it makes you feel better, though I would generally steer away from explaining things like this, shall we say with a circumstantial occurance, I think there is RJ's opinion on the matter expressed quite strongly enough. Remember that even from the Ebou Dari perspective, Tylin did break the rules by refusing to let Mat go when he brought it up. Well, it was also in play of robber versus a noblewoman that Tylin was bound under her bed when Mat left, and by Tylin's own standards, the gholam had a perfect right to suck the blood out of her, and notice she did not even resist, "her hands being tied", I imagine the blood flowed out of her quite freely... So I don't think RJ would have thought of rape lightly, himself. Yet fantasy is not a light genre, the issues can be quite difficult, even painful, when examined more closely, and there is a point to them too.

[Casco]

I want to kow if a man realy can be raped in some of the peoples opinions in this tread. When i read them (according to them) a rape needs 2 elements. 1. penetration of some sort 2. brutal voilence.

Apperently  wanting to have sex isnt important, the situation who force you to obey against your will isnt, knowing that if you use force to stop it would hurt your friends, and the ability to "save the weather" will be gone AND work against all you belive in according women (in Mats case). There are alot more things in simular order that Tylin did..

 

So, if a rape must include brutal voilence and a penetration a woman cant rape a man. If a woman brutaly voilance a man, he wouldnt be able to "get it up". A woman cant penetrate a man (at least without any tools). So....if you still think a man CAN be raped without brutal force or a penetration, how will it be possible?

 

If we think the other way, a woman can claim a rape very easy. A man dont need to use brutal voilence, only the treath and he will ofc penetrate. In anyway we look at it, the woman have the upper hand in a rape discussion, and a man cant simply be raped.

 

Me on the other hand want to think that ANYTHING that force anyone to sex against their will is a rape, but that maby only me..

[Elgee]

My opinion: If someone is forced to have sex against their will in any way, be it by brutal force, cohersion, blackmail, whatever, then it is rape, whether there is penetration or not.

 

I'm disputing the fact that Mat was unwilling, based on who the author of these books are, and how he depicted the scenes and Mat's POVs.

[Mr Ares]

I want to know if a man really can be raped in some of the peoples opinions in this tread. When i read them (according to them) a rape needs 2 elements. 1. penetration of some sort 2. brutal voilence.

I don't think anyone is saying that, and I think you do them a disservice by saying they are. Most, if not all, people arguing agree that a man can be raped. What is at issue is whether or not Mat was, not whether or not he could be. What it comes down to is that some people see Mat not as being forced to have sex against his will, but as being uncomfortable (but not unwilling) at the woman being the instigator - her chasing him, not him chasing her. It comes down to interpretation. What some people see when they read these scenes is Mat saying and thinking that he doesn't want sex with Tylin. What others perceive is Mat having nothing against the idea of sex with Tylin per se, but thinking that he should be the one in control. Which would mean that it was still consensual.

[Serenla]

I want to know if a man really can be raped in some of the peoples opinions in this tread. When i read them (according to them) a rape needs 2 elements. 1. penetration of some sort 2. brutal voilence.

I don't think anyone is saying that, and I think you do them a disservice by saying they are. Most, if not all, people arguing agree that a man can be raped. What is at issue is whether or not Mat was, not whether or not he could be. What it comes down to is that some people see Mat not as being forced to have sex against his will, but as being uncomfortable (but not unwilling) at the woman being the instigator - her chasing him, not him chasing her. It comes down to interpretation. What some people see when they read these scenes is Mat saying and thinking that he doesn't want sex with Tylin. What others perceive is Mat having nothing against the idea of sex with Tylin per se, but thinking that he should be the one in control. Which would mean that it was still consensual.

 

Exactly, I have repeatedly said that a man can be raped, but in this particular situation, Mat was not raped. 

 

Well, I disagree, I think it is much more complex than that, just like real life. There is not always some one sentiment that should follow through, but things have many sides often depending on the perspective. Certainly there is no automatic cue for the audience to laugh or cry like in a tv show. Perhaps there is also the author's opinion on the matter, but I think in no way does that obviously shine through. The signs aren't always screamed at you because that's life, which is something in my opinion RJ would have thought just as important to have than that it is possible to figure out the straight of matters. Sometimes it isn't possible, but for a work that discusses good and evil, right and wrong, honour and obligation, at least there probably are nontrivial cases to ponder. Mostly you look through the pov character's eyes after all, if he or she wouldn't notice something or some aspect or consider it noteworthy, chances are you will have to figure it out on your own.

I never said that there were obvious cues to tell the reader how to feel, I said that throughout this series, there have been clues, that can be missed, that give the reader a feeling to the actual mood of a scene.  The signs are even there when the owner of the POV doesn't recognize them.  The Cleansing is an example of when multiple POV's were used.  From some POV's, you see the good in the thing, in others it gives you the sense that there are consequences.  The woman that saw the glowing hand on Tremalking, there is something stark there.  A woman alone watching the beginning of the fufillment of a prophecy seems strange.  If it was a happy prophecy, wouldn't she want to share that moment?  This is subtle but after we see what happened to the people on the Sea Folk islands, we know what some of these consequences are.

 

If it makes you feel better, though I would generally steer away from explaining things like this, shall we say with a circumstantial occurance, I think there is RJ's opinion on the matter expressed quite strongly enough. Remember that even from the Ebou Dari perspective, Tylin did break the rules by refusing to let Mat go when he brought it up. Well, it was also in play of robber versus a noblewoman that Tylin was bound under her bed when Mat left, and by Tylin's own standards, the gholam had a perfect right to suck the blood out of her, and notice she did not even resist, "her hands being tied", I imagine the blood flowed out of her quite freely... So I don't think RJ would have thought of rape lightly, himself. Yet fantasy is not a light genre, the issues can be quite difficult, even painful, when examined more closely, and there is a point to them too.

I don't think that that was a karmic death to repay her supposed rape of Mat, I think that was a consequence of Mat sharing the woman's bed.  He knew that the ghloam was out there and after him and that Tylin didn't believe.  It's another of those, if I had chosen differently, could I have changed what happened?  The answer of course being, when you are tied to the Pattern there are very few choices.

 

IMO, rape is the worst crime a person can commit other than molesting children.  It takes away a person's faith in themself, destroys their selfworth, and makes them feel unsafe and unclean in their own body.  I have never seen a rape presented in any other way, I guess it could happen but since I have never heard of an example of this, I have no reason to believe that this is one.

Viewing my opinion on rape, how can I see the idea of someone being raped as not serious?

 

That definition has a big flaw: it permits date-rape drugs (if they don't remember they won't feel unsafe, unclean, or worthless).  Read The Canterbury Tales if you want a story that treats rape lightly.

 

Mat wasn't drugged, knocked unconscious, or otherwise unaware of what was happening. How do you think most people who have been raped after being drugged are aware that SOMETHING wrong happened? I don't understand what you're trying to get at here with that, or by dragging Canterbury Tales into it to try and support your view. You cannot equate RJ as a man and author, with Chaucer, on this subject.

That wasn't a definition of rape.  It was a cause and effect thing.  Someone is raped being the cause of said feelings and emotions.  And people who wake up, after being drugged and raped, would feel the same types of things. 

 

On the subject of Canterbury Tales, wasn't that a satire or stupid-funny type book? From what I remember of it, it was intended to shock a reader by the exagerations and obliviousness.  You know like American Pie or some other stupid-funny garbage out there?  That is hardly the type of example I was looking for.  It's like saying I never heard of cannibilism as being amusing and being told to read Jonathan Swift.

 

I never said that Mat forced women into sex. I said he knows when they want to be pursued, and when not.

 

Oh.  I thought you implied that he wouldn't stop if he REALLY wanted to have sex.

 

It isn't a serious situation ... only his pride is hurt ... funny ... BUT HE WAS RAPED??

 

You clearly don't have a clue what rape is. It's serious. It hurts a hell of a lot more than your pride. It's NOT funny!

 

Mat was raped under funny circumstances.  Rape doesn't have to hurt.  Some people might even enjoy it.  Have you ever heard of a "rape fantasy", or roleplay?  What about people who are drugged and don't remember being raped, and therefore do not feel hurt?

 

With "Rape fantasy" or roleplay, both parties are willing. That's why it's not actually rape. It's play acting ...

 

I wasn't referring to physical hurt, but emotional and mental. As stated several times now, both male and female victims can experience orgasm during rape, but that is a purely biological reaction. Mentally and emotionally, they do NOT enjoy it. For drugs, see above.

Saying "raped under funny circumstances"  is like saying "brutally murdered very politely."  I'll leave the rest to Elgee, she gave a perfect response.

 

RJ wanted us to laugh and I cannot see him wanting people to laugh at a rape.

 

This is a story which pits male chauvinism against truly empowered females.  I can totally understand RJ writing a scene in which a woman rapes the "playboy" character, and treating it like a joke.

 

I can't. Nothing I've ever read about the man gives even the faintest hint that he would treat the subject matter in this way. Just look at the way he described what Eamon Valda did to Morgaese. It's clear that he did not physically force her, but basically blackmailed her into having sex with him. Yet RJ makes it CLEAR in her POVs that she feels violated in the extreme, to the point of wanting to take her own life. Her reaction is not purely due to her own "consent", but because of the act itself (as illustrated by her flinching from being touched by men, covering herself from head to toe, etc).

 

 

I agree with Elgee again.  No examples fom the books give us any reason to believe that RJ would have handled a crime such as rape as being funny.  The reason why this scene is funny, is because of the role-reversal,(a woman being the sexual initiator), not because Mat was the victim of a crime and laughed at.

[benr]

Using POVs to determine Mat's, or anyone elses, character really makes us the Thought Police.  If we could read the thoughts of almost anyone, we'd all be criminals.  Mat's actions are what should be used to judge him on, and although he is forward with women, he is a gentleman in his actions in the true sense of the word.  He would NEVER have acted towards Tylin as she did towards him.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Saying "raped under funny circumstances"  is like saying "brutally murdered very politely."

No, because there is no match in the first statement for the word 'brutally'.  It is possible to laugh at murder: cartoons, movies, videogames, and literature all sometimes present murder in a funny way.  Even if you don't see it as often, rape can also be treated this way.

[Thor]

On this sunday morning, I tried to get out of my bed.  But I fell off.  My pride is hurt.  I think the floor raped me, and my bed was the accomplice.

[Graendals favourite]

I really don't understand the argument for saying Mat's objections were because it was the woman who was the initiator that made him object. One might object to Mat's reasons, and they can be bad reasons, but if he doesn't want sex with Tylin he doesn't want sex with Tylin and that is that. Is see no way over that for Tylin to have sex with him, unless she convinces him to change his mind, and she doesn't, so she uses her authority and Mat's duties that keep him in Ebou Dar to rape him. There just is no question that for whatever reasons, Mat did not want to have the sex, and he expressed this clearly enough. A person has all the right he wants to choose who he beds with. It's exactly like a woman who might have sex with a man, only he is very drunk so she says no, and he forces his way anyway while threatening to have her put out to the streets without a livelihood if she tries to escape.

 

never said that there were obvious cues to tell the reader how to feel, I said that throughout this series, there have been clues, that can be missed, that give the reader a feeling to the actual mood of a scene.  The signs are even there when the owner of the POV doesn't recognize them.  The Cleansing is an example of when multiple POV's were used.  From some POV's, you see the good in the thing, in others it gives you the sense that there are consequences.  The woman that saw the glowing hand on Tremalking, there is something stark there.   A woman alone watching the beginning of the fufillment of a prophecy seems strange.  If it was a happy prophecy, wouldn't she want to share that moment?  This is subtle but after we see what happened to the people on the Sea Folk islands, we know what some of these consequences are.

 

I don't think that that was a karmic death to repay her supposed rape of Mat, I think that was a consequence of Mat sharing the woman's bed.  He knew that the ghloam was out there and after him and that Tylin didn't believe.  It's another of those, if I had chosen differently, could I have changed what happened?  The answer of course being, when you are tied to the Pattern there are very few choices.

Well we read things quite differently, don't we?  ;) It's great of the work how that's possible. On the mood thing, I haven't really paid such things much mind, not my thing, but well there's a whole host of things to give Tylin a sinister feel, in particular things that connect her and the gholam. In the Winter's Heart, in that Dracula-like chapter, Mat for instance thinks of both stalking her in a very similar manner, thinking if either might come in through his window.

 

In a similar vein, I very much think Tylin was killed as she deserved, and it was no coincidence. But its great to hear the books can be read moodily, too, that is an idea for a re-read.

 

 

(Thor, I just raped you in my thoughts  ;))

[Serenla]

Using POVs to determine Mat's, or anyone elses, character really makes us the Thought Police.  If we could read the thoughts of almost anyone, we'd all be criminals.  Mat's actions are what should be used to judge him on, and although he is forward with women, he is a gentleman in his actions in the true sense of the word.  He would NEVER have acted towards Tylin as she did towards him.

I personally feel that for the sake of a book discussion, it is important to use all available information the author provides, especially POV's, to determine what is actually happening. 

Being able to read minds wouldn't make us criminals, although to do so against someone else's wishes would be rather rude.  It would actually be a rather useful tool in determing someone's guilt or innocence. 

And as far as Mat's actions go, Mat leers at women all the time and they notice it.  (In this instance, his POV actually helps his case because he thinks he's being discrete...  )He also does things like put coins down the front of serving girls dresses.  This is hardly gentlemanly behavior. 

No Mat's method of chasing is offering presents and money to girls, usually ones that need money.  Although with Tuon, he was rather pesky, he came into her wagon thing without her permission, bought her presents, would only allow her out of the dumb thing if he was with her.  She was a prisoner.  No he didn't rape her, but he was chasing her as actively as Tylin pursued him.

 

Saying "raped under funny circumstances"  is like saying "brutally murdered very politely."

No, because there is no match in the first statement for the word 'brutally'.  It is possible to laugh at murder: cartoons, movies, videogames, and literature all sometimes present murder in a funny way.  Even if you don't see it as often, rape can also be treated this way.

Then just forget the brutally part.  "Murdered very politely" serves the same point.  As for laughing at murder, those situations are more of that stupid-funny crap.  In these instances, people are laughing as a result of the shock they feel at the inacurate depiction of such an act, not because the act itself is funny.

 

On this sunday morning, I tried to get out of my bed.  But I fell off.  My pride is hurt.  I think the floor raped me, and my bed was the accomplice.

Are you trying to make smoke come out of my ears?

Now I hafta spend another week arguing about that!!!!

;)

 

I really don't understand the argument for saying Mat's objections were because it was the woman who was the initiator that made him object. One might object to Mat's reasons, and they can be bad reasons, but if he doesn't want sex with Tylin he doesn't want sex with Tylin and that is that. Is see no way over that for Tylin to have sex with him, unless she convinces him to change his mind, and she doesn't, so she uses her authority and Mat's duties that keep him in Ebou Dar to rape him. There just is no question that for whatever reasons, Mat did not want to have the sex, and he expressed this clearly enough. A person has all the right he wants to choose who he beds with. It's exactly like a woman who might have sex with a man, only he is very drunk so she says no, and he forces his way anyway while threatening to have her put out to the streets without a livelihood if she tries to escape.

 

Since the actual physical act occured off screen, there are two different directions in which one can determine what happened:

1.  What Mat communicates to Tylin before the physical act occurred.  (My take is that he gave excuses as to why he couldn't, that he had to know wouldn't have stopped her.  Never actually saying that he was disinclined.)

2.  How Mat reacted to the physical act having occurred. (Afterward, it is clear that Mat is uncomfortable.  So, why is he uncomfortable?  It's not because he felt violated, he even tells Tylin that he was supposed to do the chasing.  Rape victims don't do any chasing, they run or fight or refuse.  So if Mat was raped, why does he think that he should have chased her?  Can you see how I would think that Mat was okay with the actual sex?)

 

never said that there were obvious cues to tell the reader how to feel, I said that throughout this series, there have been clues, that can be missed, that give the reader a feeling to the actual mood of a scene.  The signs are even there when the owner of the POV doesn't recognize them.  The Cleansing is an example of when multiple POV's were used.  From some POV's, you see the good in the thing, in others it gives you the sense that there are consequences.  The woman that saw the glowing hand on Tremalking, there is something stark there.   A woman alone watching the beginning of the fufillment of a prophecy seems strange.  If it was a happy prophecy, wouldn't she want to share that moment?  This is subtle but after we see what happened to the people on the Sea Folk islands, we know what some of these consequences are.

 

I don't think that that was a karmic death to repay her supposed rape of Mat, I think that was a consequence of Mat sharing the woman's bed.  He knew that the ghloam was out there and after him and that Tylin didn't believe.  It's another of those, if I had chosen differently, could I have changed what happened?  The answer of course being, when you are tied to the Pattern there are very few choices.

Well we read things quite differently, don't we?  ;) It's great of the work how that's possible. On the mood thing, I haven't really paid such things much mind, not my thing, but well there's a whole host of things to give Tylin a sinister feel, in particular things that connect her and the gholam. In the Winter's Heart, in that Dracula-like chapter, Mat for instance thinks of both stalking her in a very similar manner, thinking if either might come in through his window.

 

In a similar vein, I very much think Tylin was killed as she deserved, and it was no coincidence. But its great to hear the books can be read moodily, too, that is an idea for a re-read.

On my first 15 reads, I was lucky to remember a third of what happened.  I think my style of reading has changed a lot. 

I didn't read Tylin as sinister, just inconvient and annoying.  As for being compared to the gholam, Mat is locked down by the Pattern at this point, he feels trapped, hunted and very annoyed, anyone thats pestering him is as bad as the Dark One to him.

 

(Thor, I just raped you in my thoughts  ;))

Oh geez, now we have a confession... At least I don't feel obligated to argue this one!  ;D

[CUBAREY]

Mat did not want to have the sex, and he expressed this clearly enough. A person has all the right he wants to choose who he beds with. It's exactly like a woman who might have sex with a man, only he is very drunk so she says no, and he forces his way anyway while threatening to have her put out to the streets without a livelihood if she tries to escape.

 

HE expressed his indignation about being chased and everyone knowing he was being chased. The real sorrow he exhibits at learning that Tylen was murdered is an indication of his true feelings. At best a victim of rape would exhibit torn feelings upon hearing that his/her rapest was killed. Even the most forgiving person would harbor some feeling that the rapest got what he/she deserved. In the case of Mat all he thinks about is that Tylen was killed because of him. That is not the mindset of a rape victim but of a lover.

[Graendals favourite]

Since the actual physical act occured off screen, there are two different directions in which one can determine what happened:

1.  What Mat communicates to Tylin before the physical act occurred.  (My take is that he gave excuses as to why he couldn't, that he had to know wouldn't have stopped her.  Never actually saying that he was disinclined.)

2.  How Mat reacted to the physical act having occurred. (Afterward, it is clear that Mat is uncomfortable.  So, why is he uncomfortable?  It's not because he felt violated, he even tells Tylin that he was supposed to do the chasing.  Rape victims don't do any chasing, they run or fight or refuse.  So if Mat was raped, why does he think that he should have chased her?  Can you see how I would think that Mat was okay with the actual sex?)

Number 2 is irrelevant. What a person thinks about the sex afterwards is totally irrelevant. Some people sobering up in the morning may disagree, but really they needed to not want the sex before it happened. Also, actually, what happened during the sex is largely irrelevant. It is a rape if it is initiated against the will of one party, but if the offended party resigns his or herself to the fact during the act and at least tries to make the best of it, it does not make it any less rape. Being rational does not change the offense, it is only a positive thing if you can take life as it comes, and even better if you manage to avoid traumas from the rape. Rationally after all, a rape need not result in a trauma, for we are none of us truly in charge of our bodies anyway since we cannot control what happens in life.

 

On number 1, forcing Mat to the bed with the knife-- and no there is no reason for him to risk his life to avoid the sex, unlike dying even rape can be lived through-- would be enough, but he said he didn't have time for her, and in the bedroom where she forced him he said she could not do that to him. Then she proceeded to cut off his clothes with the knife.

 

 

On the other, I did find Tylin also an interesting character, but her sinister side certainly comes through. She would have done better had Mat left when he meant to with the Aes Sedai, but later she succumbed to outright abuse even in Ebou Dari terms.

[Graendals favourite]

HE expressed his indignation about being chased and everyone knowing he was being chased. The real sorrow he exhibits at learning that Tylen was murdered is an indication of his true feelings. At best a victim of rape would exhibit torn feelings upon hearing that his/her rapest was killed. Even the most forgiving person would harbor some feeling that the rapest got what he/she deserved. In the case of Mat all he thinks about is that Tylen was killed because of him. That is not the mindset of a rape victim but of a lover.

And that would still not change the fact that the first time was initiated against Mat's will, and later Tylin simply abused him. I would remind you that damane also truly learn to appreciate their proper places in regard to suldam, they truly do many of them, yet a person can get used to much.

[Serenla]

Number 2 is irrelevant. What a person thinks about the sex afterwards is totally irrelevant.

This is a point to which, I cannot agree.  What a person says they think may be lies, what they actually think is well, what they think.  This is a book, we see what Mat is actually thinking.  And he actually thinks that he should have done the chasing.  Not he wished she hadn't of done that, or that he feels violated.  If a person had been raped, what would they think?

 

On number 1, forcing Mat to the bed with the knife-- and no there is no reason for him to risk his life to avoid the sex, unlike dying even rape can be lived through-- would be enough, but he said he didn't have time for her, and in the bedroom where she forced him he said she could not do that to him. Then she proceeded to cut off his clothes with the knife.

If we didn't know anything about Mat and his capabilities, we would have to have a discussion involving generalities.  We all know Mat, have been watching him do things, react to situations, and know how he feels about things.  We have seen him, time and again say whatever he thought regardless of to whom he was speaking.  We know he has quick hands and we know that without a knife directly at his throat, he could disarm Tylin with ease.  And "I don't have time" is hardly a refusal.  Did he really, given his view of nobles, his experience with nobles, think that a queen is overly concerned about whether he is busy?  Mat is a master of making up excuses, given all the time that he has had since the moment he met her, he couldn't think of one thing to tell Tylin that would get her off is back?  To ignore these facts, to ignore who and what Mat is, is from my point of view, not the discussion.  The only point I want to make is that Mat was not raped by Tylin on this page of this book.  We have seen Mat time and again, try to fight the Pattern, how am I expected to believe that he'd fight his own destiny, but rather passively allow himself to be raped?

 

On the other, I did find Tylin also an interesting character, but her sinister side certainly comes through. She would have done better had Mat left when he meant to with the Aes Sedai, but later she succumbed to outright abuse even in Ebou Dari terms.

She got worse for two reasons, the Seanchan envaded and put her in a bad mood, and Mat thought he'd be funny and dice with her for forfeits.  After Mat had a turn being in charge, she took his dice and redoubled her efforts of trying to embarass him back.  I didn't think that was sinister, I thought it was Mat being Mat and making a situation more uncomfortable for himself.

 

HE expressed his indignation about being chased and everyone knowing he was being chased. The real sorrow he exhibits at learning that Tylen was murdered is an indication of his true feelings. At best a victim of rape would exhibit torn feelings upon hearing that his/her rapest was killed. Even the most forgiving person would harbor some feeling that the rapest got what he/she deserved. In the case of Mat all he thinks about is that Tylen was killed because of him. That is not the mindset of a rape victim but of a lover.

And that would still not change the fact that the first time was initiated against Mat's will, and later Tylin simply abused him. I would remind you that damane also truly learn to appreciate their proper places in regard to suldam, they truly do many of them, yet a person can get used to much.

I agree with CUBAREY.  Mat was not completely isolated, controlled and abused.  He had Thom and Juilin and Vanin and Olver and two serving men and some redarms.  He leaves the Palace to makeout with Aludra and talk to Luca.  There is no reason to believe that Mat is suffering from some damaged psychy that would make him like his rapist.  Also the damane don't like their captors, they grow to love them and kiss their hands like a dog, once you break someone, they are broken, I doubt there are degrees to it.

[Shard]

Saying "raped under funny circumstances"  is like saying "brutally murdered very politely."

No, because there is no match in the first statement for the word 'brutally'.  It is possible to laugh at murder: cartoons, movies, videogames, and literature all sometimes present murder in a funny way.  Even if you don't see it as often, rape can also be treated this way.

 

I really don't want to meet the people who laugh at murder....

[seasnake]

Okay, this conversation has gone on for a while but it does not seem to be getting anywhere.  The question is simple:  What is Rape? 

 

The answer:  forcing an unwilling person into unwanted intercourse of some kind, deviant or other. 

 

The problem:  Who decides if a person is willing or unwilling?  Or if intercourse is wanted vs. unwanted?  Or what is "force?"

 

It's hard to look at objective fact patterns as an equivalent to rape.  There are several people who enjoy the thought of being bound and having some kind of master or mistress who calls all the shots, who forces them to do things based on some kind of compulsion, and yet do not call this rape.

 

Meanwhile there are several people who are "date raped" with a person they in many ways care about and want to be with but ultimately feel pressured into sex sooner than they would have chosen.  For example, if a boyfriend asks his girlfriend to perform some kind of sex act or he has no more interest in a relationship with her, did he "force" her to do the act?  Was it some kind of emotional blackmail, or simply expressing a desire to have her do something and refusing to be in a relationship with someone who wouldn't?

 

Or suppose a boyfriend grabs his girlfriend, throws her down and begins stripping her down in the best tradition of romance fiction, yet this is what she wants him to do is "take charge" and show he desperately needs her in a physical way.  This would have the outward appearance of force someone into sex but it was actually initiating the intimacy in a way agreeable to both. 

 

So I don't think there is some objective criteria we can look at that determines a rape.  So in my opinion things like Tylin using a knife or laying it aside does not save/damn the act that followed.  Or even the use of restraints, or other such things.  To me those do not prove a rape.  They may be indicative, but they do not ultimately prove the offense.

 

It really comes down to the victim and the alleged rapist to determine a rape, because no two people are alike.  In this case we have a brief view at the alleged rapist but a huge insight into the mind of the victim.  In my opinion, Mat's reactions, attitudes and overall effects do not fit the profile of a rape victim.  His thoughts about Tylin's affections seem to be equivalent to a child being forced to eat broccoli and scheming to get out of it as opposed to a man who lives in terror of being preyed upon.  He does seem to enjoy the activities themselves but objects to parts of them.  He likes having relations with her but feels "goofy" about the whole thing. 

 

Because I believe that victim reaction to the offense and attitude to the offender is the best way to determine rape, I cannot find this to be rape. 

 

To people who look to Stockholm syndrome to explain his attitudes as not fitting a victim profile, generally SS hallmarks include the victims thinking THEY started it/deserve it/wanted what the predator did to them.  Mat never engages those thoughts, rather he constantly complains about the things Tylin does.  Yet his complaints are always about superficial stuff about what she makes him wear as opposed to violations of his body.  Again, I do not see him as a victim profile here suffering from SS.

[benr]

Using POVs to determine Mat's, or anyone elses, character really makes us the Thought Police.  If we could read the thoughts of almost anyone, we'd all be criminals.  Mat's actions are what should be used to judge him on, and although he is forward with women, he is a gentleman in his actions in the true sense of the word.  He would NEVER have acted towards Tylin as she did towards him.

I personally feel that for the sake of a book discussion, it is important to use all available information the author provides, especially POV's, to determine what is actually happening. 

Being able to read minds wouldn't make us criminals, although to do so against someone else's wishes would be rather rude.  It would actually be a rather useful tool in determing someone's guilt or innocence. 

 

 

I didn't put that well.  What I mean is that all of us have criminal thoughts; if we could read minds, we could all be convicted.  People who have criminal thoughts have the ability to control them; therefore, they aren't criminals.  Mat likes the ladies, but would never put one in a compromised position like he ended up in.  do I think he was permanently traumatized?  No, but I could be wrong.

[Elgee]

Very well said, seasnake!