Equal yet not

[Terez]

Ah, I see how it goes now. It's one of those debates on an abstract principle.

[Mik]

Ok Mik, let me put it this way: do you have new evidence to support your hypothesis? I mean, a whole new book came out since our last go at it, featuring both Moridin and Shaidar Haran. Otherwise, I fear most of us simply don't interpret the clues the way that you do, and after debating the issue for some time now, I'm doubtful we'll change our minds based on the same ol' arguments

I think it's been two books now. Really new evidence? Nope, nothing really new. I recall some stuff that strengthens the case I made a bit (I'll add it later).

I guess what really changed is me. I used to come down like a ton of bricks, just because that's how I was. Barid Bel Medar, some RL stuff (and truth be told the 'Grandael-did-it') gave me a kick in the face, so to speak. I've come to realize that the Lex Talionis* that used to come natural to me and that I used to live by is a worthless method of convincing people. Regardless if you are wrong or right.

All that it accomplished is that when people like myself started trading an eye for an eye for an eye (with Maj & Mr Ares in this thread for instance), is that it leaves everyone blind for what truly matters.

 

I just felt that this thread deserved a second chance. There's a lot of (non popular -I know I know-) ideas in here and I feel that if I were to bring the content differently, I could really change your mind(s).

I don't think there's a need for new evidence. I think all it needs is a different approach (mostly from me).

 

For instance, I'm considering using Ockhams Razor myself to proove why the Watcher can't be Moridin. Not because I myself think that's the best way to go... or even that it's neccesary, but mostly because -given how the Razor is viewed here- it will work better for you guys.

 

I figured that when I can proove the "distance-problem" between the Watcher & Sammy/Granny (the sensing/ link dissolving & sound/ehanced channeler hearing) while using Ockham's popular Sharp little tool, I could really get somewhere.

 

Ah, I see how it goes now. It's one of those debates on an abstract principle.

Myself, I don't think it's an abstract principle when there's enough in the books to support the theory.

 

Because Occam's Razor is for theories, not literary criticism.

Hello old man. ;)

How about I use that razor to try and sway you to my side of things? I'm sorry I was a harsh asshole to you at times.

 

The simplest answer is that the Watcher is Moridin. The Watcher being Shaidar Haran is insanely overcomplicated, completely unsupported, and solves nothing that wasn't already solved by the Watcher being Moridin.

It's the simplest answer -true-, but it's a wrong answer because it ignores some facts. The best explanation is not always the simplest, even though I think it's very elegant and RJ like.

In the words of good ol' Sherlock: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

Just give me another shot at disproving that the Watcher can be Moridin, Mr Ares.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

(* the law of retaliation)

[Terez]

I was talking about the way you phrased your earlier response to me - that the debate began because Luckers said that Moridin=Watcher was 'a fact'. So I got the impression that you wouldn't have otherwise bothered trying to convince people of such a loony theory, if the words Luckers had used hadn't been so strong. I have seen a lot of arguments get derailed along the same lines, usually arguments over the exact meanings of 'proof' and 'evidence'. Tedious for everyone involved.

[yoniy0]

Nah, we love splitting hairs here.

 

Back to the topic at hand. I think we're making too big a deal of how difficult it is to remain absolutely still and quite in a forest. The real question isn't whether the Watcher was quite - it's whether he could escape Sammael's and Graendal's notice. Out in the wilderness, an experienced person could probably elude detection by city folk without much difficulty. And that's disregarding the fancloth. So, even if Moridin merely did his best to "stop dead in his tracks", it could work.

[OptimusPrime]

All Im saying is I wouldnt be surprised if it wasnt Moridin

[coolpool]

this thread just took up 3 and a half hours of my life... i could have read 7 chapters of WoT, or don't something productive.. :P

 

so... i do like your theory mik but think about it, a SH mordin mash up is just... wacky. Like i have read your evidence but it seems so very much like poety; you can have proof for allmost anything you think in poetry even if it is totally different from what the poet meant.. it has different interpretation. But.. proof and evidnece are totally diferent things. In law, people can't be conviced on proof alone but people can be convicted with evidence. What i think you have here mik is proof and no even solid/direct proof either, just circunstantal proof and coincedence like.. (just likr conneting the dots to create an imagine that just doesn't work or look like anything)

 

And like i'm not going to go into all this direct quoting business to disprove you like but the fact the this theroy is... fain crazy should be enough (like a ceriain Mr ares said like ages ago or something..)

 

but like i said cool theory like and it would be hularious if it was true but sadly, it just seems too extreme.. theroyland might like this idea

 

(yes, i can't spell to save my life )

[Elan Tedronai]

Robert jordan always played hide and seek with his characters.

 

You know why Ishamael could not defeat lews therin at paaran disen? You know why sammael got that scar from LTT? you know why aginor, ishy met their ends at the hands of rand in the beginning?

 

 

Because Jordan cannot kill of his major characters. The bad guys always lose in the wheel of time. I hate it but i have come to accept it.

 

You should accept it too

[Elan Tedronai]

I always thought that when Shaitan broke free he would destroy the Wheel (not the world) and the fact that the Wheel is broken would mean that nothing could stand against him-if the Wheel broke, it could no longer spin out its heroes and Dragons and create Ta'veren. If the Dark One defeated Rand and broke free, he would rid the world of the Creators only influence, and thus be able to remake the world however he wanted. I very much doubt he would go to all this trouble for there to be nothing-he cant create his own world, but he can steal one, at least thats how I saw it

 

 

 

hooray for a the best answer in these forums. All these shaitan wants to end the world forever posts makes no sense and i am glad to see other people starting to see it too.

 

If you are shaitan it makes complete sense to break the wheel and remake the world as you see fit. Not simply destroy it.

[MasterAblar]

Robert jordan always played hide and seek with his characters.

 

You know why Ishamael could not defeat lews therin at paaran disen? You know why sammael got that scar from LTT? you know why aginor, ishy met their ends at the hands of rand in the beginning?

 

 

Because Jordan cannot kill of his major characters. The bad guys always lose in the wheel of time. I hate it but i have come to accept it.

 

You should accept it too

 

Well, while Rand defeating the forsaken early on is rather odd, it's not that suprising that LTT would kick Ishamael's and Sammael's butts. He was like the biggest, baddest, thoughest and basically best fightef EVER. Among other things.

 

Still I see your point and I agree, he was obviously very attached to his characters.

[Loophole]

I always thought that when Shaitan broke free he would destroy the Wheel (not the world) and the fact that the Wheel is broken would mean that nothing could stand against him-if the Wheel broke, it could no longer spin out its heroes and Dragons and create Ta'veren. If the Dark One defeated Rand and broke free, he would rid the world of the Creators only influence, and thus be able to remake the world however he wanted. I very much doubt he would go to all this trouble for there to be nothing-he cant create his own world, but he can steal one, at least thats how I saw it

 

 

 

hooray for a the best answer in these forums. All these shaitan wants to end the world forever posts makes no sense and i am glad to see other people starting to see it too.

 

If you are shaitan it makes complete sense to break the wheel and remake the world as you see fit. Not simply destroy it.

 

Except that the DO is a scorpion crossing a river on a frog, and it is his nature to sting...

 

Might make complete sense to you, being human, to the DO it might make more sense to destroy everything, then let the creator do his thing and have some more fun.

[Elan Tedronai]

so basically

 

creator creates a world and shaitan wants to destroy it. world destroyed and shaitan sits there waiting for a new world from the creator so he can destroy it again and again and again.....

 

 

 

I think i will take the other theory coz that makes more sense to me.

[chuckievi]

Or he is sick of being in a prison and would rather burn it all to the ground, himself included, as opposed to be imprisoned forever.

[Hopefire]

so basically

 

creator creates a world and shaitan wants to destroy it. world destroyed and shaitan sits there waiting for a new world from the creator so he can destroy it again and again and again.....

 

I think i will take the other theory coz that makes more sense to me.

 

The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, destroyer of reason and logic, breaker of balance, the unmaker of order. As his greatest servant says "omeday, he will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop. [...] When he is victorious, all things will end."

 

It doesn't have to make sense. It is what it is. The Dark One is not an evil version of the Creator: the Dark One might as well be named the Destroyer. He doesn't wish to create a new and different version of the world. He wants the absolute destruction of the world - when Rand almost destroyed the world, it was as a result of two years of spiritual attacks from the Dark One designed to bring Rand to that point.

 

As a character in a different series says, "Some men just want to watch the world burn."

[Elan Tedronai]

First of all you should never believe everything what isy says. According to the author himself.

 

Lets say though this time he's telling the truth. if that's the case then it just shows an inherent flaw within the series. Particularly with the creator and ishy himself if he's telling the truth. Because no matter what ishy says, i refuse to believe that a human wishes for complete destruction of the world and ending his chance of ever living. Self preservation is a human trait and ishy is and always will be human.

 

then again there's alot of plot issues within the series.

[OptimusPrime]

There are two things that make me not 100% sure that Moridin is the Watcher.

 

The first, the Watcher is aware of saidar. Then again, I cant remember what exactly Moridin saw when Aviendha unwove that gateway.

 

The second, Moridin seems awfully calm about Sammael claiming his title. And we have seen Moridin throw massive paddies before.

 

Ive been of the mind where I think the Dark One can possess people or in the very least be with them somehow. I think IF the Watcher isnt Moridin, that it was the Dark One while possessing/accompanying Moridin in his body. Not Shaidar, not a linked Fade, not a shadowy chunk. Just an awareness that sees through Moridins eyes.

[yoniy0]

the Watcher is aware of saidar.

Ahm, are you sure you're not confusing him with SH (no, I don't mean the way Mik meant it, I mean that PoV of his where he complaints about his ties to SG)?

 

Moridin seems awfully calm about Sammael claiming his title. And we have seen Moridin throw massive paddies before.

Perhaps, but Moridin seems to be confident in his position. And why shouldn't he be? He's the only one who truly understands what the DO wants from his FS, and they appear to converse on a regular basis.

[Hopefire]

Lets say though this time he's telling the truth. if that's the case then it just shows an inherent flaw within the series. Particularly with the creator and ishy himself if he's telling the truth. Because no matter what ishy says, i refuse to believe that a human wishes for complete destruction of the world and ending his chance of ever living. Self preservation is a human trait and ishy is and always will be human.

 

Is it so odd that a person would want to end it all? It's hardly a new idea, take a look at Hamlet: "O, that this too too solid flesh would melt, thaw, and resolve itself into a dew," "How weary, stale, flat, and unprofitable, seem to me all the uses of this world," "To be, or not to be, — that is the question;" suicide, the desire to end it all, isn't so radical an idea. It was an old theme in fiction long before Shakespeare.

 

And getting to the point of why I started quoting Hamlet: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[capuga]

Because no matter what ishy says, i refuse to believe that a human wishes for complete destruction of the world and ending his chance of ever living. Self preservation is a human trait and ishy is and always will be human.

 

People commit suicide all the time. Perhaps some of them believe in an afterlife and that they will achieve that afterlife, but the majority of them just want it all to end. Ishy justs extends that feeling to the whole world and thinks that he's actually doing the world a favor by putting them out of their misery.

[OptimusPrime]

the Watcher is aware of saidar.

Ahm, are you sure you're not confusing him with SH (no, I don't mean the way Mik meant it, I mean that PoV of his where he complaints about his ties to SG)?

 

Im pretty sure in Winters Heart, the Watcher notes that Sammael and Graendal were linked. It says Sammael let the link disolve I believe... I just thought it was strange that if the Watcher was Moridin how can he tell if Sammaels in a link or not?

 

I just find it odd that a True Power user could tell if someone was linked. Unless of course Moridin could sense the tingling a man gets when saidar is channeled nearby... I think I need to read the Watcher section again.

 

This what Im getting at is definitely seperate from Shaidar though.

 

As for Moridins confidence in his own title thing, yeah... I suppose it wouldnt matter that much to him what the others think. Maybe Sammaels boast has something to do with Moridin helping Rand in LoC.

[yoniy0]

Ah, that. Well, I'm pretty sure we discussed this issue in this thread; I certainly recall discussing it with Luckers and someone else. We know that a woman would be aware of another Linking with a man. Why not the other way around? In any other context, I'll consider this part of his PoV proof that it does, in fact, work both ways.