Equal yet not

[Majsju]

And how does that conflict with what I'm saying above? Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal, indeed. Enhanced with the mind of Ishamael. What's left of it anyway, after centuries of True Power use.

 

Like I said; think 'Slayer'.

 

So Moridin/SH enters T'A'R in the flesh, switches to the wanted body, and walks back into the real world?

And when the body is Moridin, is that body enhanced with the mind of SH, including the shadowy form of the DO?

 

Wow...

 

Are you suggesting he said; In it's opinion, the gateways had left a residue...?

Nope, sorry. It was clearly referring to his vision, his eye-sight. He may not have visible eyes, or eyes for that matter. But Shaidar clearly refering to his sight and thus thinks of itself as 'having eyes' in this case.

 

No, I am suggesting that "in its eyes" refers to whatever means myrdraal have for seeing things. We know that they have vision, but not with ordinary eyes. But it would sound quite awkward if RJ had written "In its myrdraal-organ to provide vision"...

 

Right. I'm not saying it's a MoM, Maj. See above.

 

Right, T'A'R and all that jazz. Heh.

 

Don't be a meany! Just because Shaidar Haran doesn't tell us in his one Point of View, about 10 lines long (wow!) doesn't mean he doesn't experience it. You can't say he doesn't.

 

Actually, I can, since it is backed up by all information we have, not only the POVs.

 

Meanwhile, there is absolutely not a shred of evidence for your opinions.

 

Why do you guys feel so attacked?

 

Debunking unsupported theories is what we do here ;D

[Mik]

And how does that conflict with what I'm saying above? Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal, indeed. Enhanced with the mind of Ishamael. What's left of it anyway, after centuries of True Power use.

 

Like I said; think 'Slayer'.

So Moridin/SH enters T'A'R in the flesh, switches to the wanted body, and walks back into the real world?

And when the body is Moridin, is that body enhanced with the mind of SH, including the shadowy form of the DO?

 

Wow...

What I was saying was, that we've seen RJ writing about Shai'tan linking two different threads together before; Slayer. We've seen explained partially how that works. What's so wierd about RJ using the concept again, but this time for one of the main characters? You can mock that all you want (even though I think it's very lame), but somehow there was a 'Version 0.5'  before Ishamael died. And somewhere after Ishamael dies there's a new and improved version. That's not proof by itself, but it could -and should- make one think.

 

Are you suggesting he said; In it's opinion, the gateways had left a residue...?

Nope, sorry. It was clearly referring to his vision, his eye-sight. He may not have visible eyes, or eyes for that matter. But Shaidar clearly refering to his sight and thus thinks of itself as 'having eyes' in this case.

No, I am suggesting that "in its eyes" refers to whatever means myrdraal have for seeing things. We know that they have vision, but not with ordinary eyes. But it would sound quite awkward if RJ had written "In its myrdraal-organ to provide vision"...

Good! Atleast you dropped the suggestion it referred to 'opinion'! (after you've read the context)

 

You yourself now also say, it's Shaidar Haran referring to whatever it uses to 'see'. My whole point wás that Shaidar Haran refers to it's visionary capabilities as 'eyes'. I don't care and it does not matter if he sees with his nose or chin, the point was that Shaidar thought of it as 'eyes', ordinary or not. We're getting there.  ;)

 

Don't be a meany! Just because Shaidar Haran doesn't tell us in his one Point of View, about 10 lines long (wow!) doesn't mean he doesn't experience it. You can't say he doesn't.

Actually, I can, since it is backed up by all information we have, not only the POVs.

 

Meanwhile, there is absolutely not a shred of evidence for your opinions.

Well, all I see you doing is keep on saying how ridiculous it is, but how about explaining how -if it was Moridin in Chapter 20- the Watcher saw the link between Samael & Graendal dissolve?  I mean, if there's no shred of evidence and you've got all the info, you won't have much trouble there, I guess. I quoted some relevant bits a few posts up too, so to call my findings unfounded is unfair.

 

How come Graendal & Sammael didn't hear the Watcher if it was Moridin, heightened senses like hearing and vision in a forrest where they stumbled around, while the Watcher had no trouble following them soundlessly?

I believe I provided a quote to match Fade-behaviour there too? Unfounded? You may disagree, but please attack the reasons for the idea. Not the idea. Or the person.

 

What made the Watchers skin prickle? Was it human tingling Goosebumps... or the "Fade-Itch"? (see quote in the other unfounded post ....again)

The Watcher must have been pretty far off... right?

 

The prologue in TPoD is called "Deceptive Appearances" and in every part of that prologue it's a factor; deceptive appearances.

You think that last bit in that prologue with Moridins one of two POV's doesn't fall in that catergory?

Would the deceptive appearance in that POV be that he's more then just Moridin?

 

Ever wondered why the Nae'Bliss is just half a step below Shai'tan? Not one step.. or 3 steps.. No sir. 0,5 a step. Exactly half.

There's always been only one Nae'Bliss. From the very start. The Forsaken fight for a hollow promise.

Ishamael has always been linked to Myrddraal. After he died, Shai'tan just made a better link.

 

Why do you guys feel so attacked?

Debunking unsupported theories is what we do here ;D

Be my guest;

Debunk my idea that if the Watcher is just a person like you suggest, can not step outside the Pattern?

A myrdraal on the other hand -being partially outside time & reality- just might. Debunk that?

 

 

[lordofsoup]

how do we know that one of the effects of the True Power is not that u become a Myddraal?

 

I have a theory that he takes over the Neablis' body and uses it to make his own avatar in the world that way it can be both Moridin and Shaitan. 

 

@if the watcher could step outside the pattern it could not be SH because the DO would revive Bel'al and Rahvin and other balefired Forsaken and the others that were killed in the War of the Power if he could and he says that to one of the Forsaken or something like that that even he can not step outside the pattern

[lordofsoup]

feel free to make fun i will suk it up

[Majsju]

What I was saying was, that we've seen RJ writing about Shai'tan linking two different threads together before; Slayer. We've seen explained partially how that works. What's so wierd about RJ using the concept again, but this time for one of the main characters? You can mock that all you want (even though I think it's very lame), but somehow there was a 'Version 0.5'  before Ishamael died. And somewhere after Ishamael dies there's a new and improved version. That's not proof by itself, but it could -and should- make one think.

 

Lets see, Slayer is created by merging two humans into one, two souls, two minds sharing one body.

SH and Moridin, a myrdraal "housing" a shadowy form of the DO, and a human. A myrdraal expressing annoyance of having a link to SG, a human who have never expressed any such restriction, despite having been seen out and about quite a lot in the real world. Same human who shares a mental link with Rand, the mental link that makes LTT talk about "the three of us". Not "the three of us and the extra creepy myrdraal".

 

Apples and oranges. It is like saying that since RJ introduced the concept of wolfbrothers, there must by bunnybrothers and birdbrothers and dolphinbrothers as well.

 

Good! Atleast you dropped the suggestion it referred to 'opinion'! (after you've read the context)

 

You yourself now also say, it's Shaidar Haran referring to whatever it uses to 'see'. My whole point wás that Shaidar Haran refers to it's visionary capabilities as 'eyes'. I don't care and it does not matter if he sees with his nose or chin, the point was that Shaidar thought of it as 'eyes', ordinary or not. We're getting there.

 

We are not getting anywhere. Myrdraal does not have eyes, period. They are called eyeless, not hiddeneyes...

Thus, it is a figure of speech.

 

Well, all I see you doing is keep on saying how ridiculous it is, but how about explaining how -if it was Moridin in Chapter 20- the Watcher saw the link between Samael & Graendal dissolve?  I mean, if there's no shred of evidence and you've got all the info, you won't have much trouble there, I guess. I quoted some relevant bits a few posts up too, so to call my findings unfounded is unfair.

 

So you have knowledge of everything that can be done with not only the OP, but the TP as well? Even though we know for a fact that somethings can be done with TP that can not be done with OP And you also somehow know that myrdraal has the ability to see when a link is dissolved?

 

How come Graendal & Sammael didn't hear the Watcher if it was Moridin, heightened senses like hearing and vision in a forrest where they stumbled around, while the Watcher had no trouble following them soundlessly?

I believe I provided a quote to match Fade-behaviour there too? Unfounded? You may disagree, but please attack the reasons for the idea. Not the idea. Or the person.

 

So you know for a fact that TP can not be used to cover noise? Even after Moridin flat out states that he has learned expertise in areas Sammael scorned, in direct relation to standing very still in order to avoid detection?

And speaking of that particular part, why would someone with a myrdraals abilities rely on fancloth to remain hidden in a forest, when myrdral are pretty much invisible in shadows? Why go through the trouble of making a full bodysuit out of fancloth, if all that is needed is to stand in a shadow to achieve the same result?

 

What made the Watchers skin prickle? Was it human tingling Goosebumps... or the "Fade-Itch"? (see quote in the other unfounded post ....again)

The Watcher must have been pretty far off... right?

 

Hmmm, I think I have read something about how a male channeler reacts when a woman channels...Oh right, the skin prickles. Gosh.

 

The prologue in TPoD is called "Deceptive Appearances" and in every part of that prologue it's a factor; deceptive appearances.

You think that last bit in that prologue with Moridins one of two POV's doesn't fall in that catergory?

Would the deceptive appearance in that POV be that he's more then just Moridin?

 

Ah yes, the whole point of that prologue was to link Moridin with SH, how could I miss something so obvious...

 

Ever wondered why the Nae'Bliss is just half a step below Shai'tan? Not one step.. or 3 steps.. No sir. 0,5 a step. Exactly half.

There's always been only one Nae'Bliss. From the very start. The Forsaken fight for a hollow promise.

Ishamael has always been linked to Myrddraal. After he died, Shai'tan just made a better link.

 

Exactly 0.5...You mean like Nynaeve could alone channel half of what ten trained Aes Sedai with a sa'angreal did?

 

And just how has Ishamael always been "linked" to myrdraal in a way no other forsaken has?

 

Debunk my idea that if the Watcher is just a person like you suggest, can not step outside the Pattern?

A myrdraal on the other hand -being partially outside time & reality- just might. Debunk that?

 

Uhm...Travelling with TP perhaps, like the text explicitly says he does. We know for a fact that Travelling with TP is different from Travelling with OP, this is established in the prologue of TEOTW.

 

And incidently, we have vacuoles. They exist outside the Pattern, yet they can be entered. In other words, it has been established that it is possible to step outside the Pattern.

 

how do we know that one of the effects of the True Power is not that u become a Myddraal?

 

The physical effect of using too much TP is the Saa. Late stages of that is the burning pits where the eyes and mouth used to be. Myrdraal have no eyes, not burned-out holes, and I am quite sure I have not seen any myrdraal breathing fire so far in the books.

 

@if the watcher could step outside the pattern it could not be SH because the DO would revive Bel'al and Rahvin and other balefired Forsaken and the others that were killed in the War of the Power if he could and he says that to one of the Forsaken or something like that that even he can not step outside the pattern

 

The DOs comment is outside Time, not outside the Pattern.

[Mik]

What I was saying was, that we've seen RJ writing about Shai'tan linking two different threads together before; Slayer. We've seen explained partially how that works. What's so wierd about RJ using the concept again, but this time for one of the main characters? You can mock that all you want (even though I think it's very lame), but somehow there was a 'Version 0.5'  before Ishamael died. And somewhere after Ishamael dies there's a new and improved version. That's not proof by itself, but it could -and should- make one think.

Lets see, Slayer is created by merging two humans into one, two souls, two minds sharing one body.

About Slayer; two souls (maybe, could be one ~ uncertain), two bodies (fact; we've seen both), just one mind shared by two personalities (fact; only one of them does the thinking at any given time, but they share memories of eachother)

 

SH and Moridin, a myrdraal "housing" a shadowy form of the DO, and a human..

Yes. And since you didn't seem to mind Slayers existence too much, why is that so wierd?

Besides, RJ smartly related the 'shadowy form' to 'this creature' while answering about Shaidar Haran. Why not 'into this Myrddraal'.. or simply 'into Shaidar Haran', or 'into it'?

 

Jordan: "I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not: Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It’s as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature…it is the Dark One in shadowy form."

 

A myrdraal expressing annoyance of having a link to SG, a human who have never expressed any such restriction, despite having been seen out and about quite a lot in the real world.

Wowowow. Slow down, Cowboy. Ishamael nor Moridin never expressed it, true. We've seen Shaidar Haran out and about quite a lot in the real world too, and yet it said it has a link to Shayol Ghul. So, given that, the fact that Ishamael or Moridin were out and about quite a lot in the real world doesn't disprove anything.

 

But, we do see Ishamael close to Shayol Ghul more often then not. Same goes for Moridin.

If there's any place he would call home, it'd be Shayol Ghul.

 

To top it off, we have RJ himself. It should make you think. Ishamael always liked to stay close to Shayol Ghul. Even during the War of Power, Ishamael never held direct field command somewhere. He was out and about at times, but take a guess where you could find him most?

Robert Jordan Answers:

They [The Forsaken] carved out power bases of their own choosing based on various criteria, one of which I will reveal. (Others are definitely RAFO!) For the most part, Ishamael excepted, they set out to create worldly power for themselves using the methods they favored in the Age of Legends

 

Same human who shares a mental link with Rand, the mental link that makes LTT talk about "the three of us". Not "the three of us and the extra creepy myrdraal".

And why would LTT know? LTT experiences what Rand does. Rand linked with Moridin, so it's logical Rand & LTT think of Moridin as the third one. Again, I don't see how this disproves the possibility.

 

Apples and oranges. It is like saying that since RJ introduced the concept of wolfbrothers, there must by bunnybrothers and birdbrothers and dolphinbrothers as well.

You just couldn't help yourself again eh? Boy, are you going to eat your socks when I'm right.

 

Good! Atleast you dropped the suggestion it referred to 'opinion'! (after you've read the context)

 

You yourself now also say, it's Shaidar Haran referring to whatever it uses to 'see'. My whole point wás that Shaidar Haran refers to it's visionary capabilities as 'eyes'. I don't care and it does not matter if he sees with his nose or chin, the point was that Shaidar thought of it as 'eyes', ordinary or not. We're getting there.

We are not getting anywhere. Myrdraal does not have eyes, period. They are called eyeless, not hiddeneyes...

Thus, it is a figure of speech.

? No, it's not figure of speech. It's a thought by someone/something, directly related to 'seeing/ observing'. It's not like he's telling others "In my eyes, this is false".

 

Well, all I see you doing is keep on saying how ridiculous it is, but how about explaining how -if it was Moridin in Chapter 20- the Watcher saw the link between Samael & Graendal dissolve?  I mean, if there's no shred of evidence and you've got all the info, you won't have much trouble there, I guess. I quoted some relevant bits a few posts up too, so to call my findings unfounded is unfair.

So you have knowledge of everything that can be done with not only the OP, but the TP as well? Even though we know for a fact that somethings can be done with TP that can not be done with OP And you also somehow know that myrdraal has the ability to see when a link is dissolved?

Wowowow. Again, not so agressive cowboy!

 

First off, that's not an answer. That's refusing to answer, where I am trying my best to answer yours.

Second, I put forward that it's much more likely that a Myrddraal could make that observation, because we have direct proof that Shaidar Haran can see (you know, the "in it's eyes") weaves, residue & flows.

 

Third, we have a lot -and I mean an awful lot- of human channeling described in precise detail in the books. I quoted every single relevant comparable situation. Not one of those, shows us humans can see the link.. or see it dissolve. In fact, they prove that humans cannot.

 

You're just shoving proof aside like it's nothing, but instead just start spitting more questions.

 

How come Graendal & Sammael didn't hear the Watcher if it was Moridin, heightened senses like hearing and vision in a forrest where they stumbled around, while the Watcher had no trouble following them soundlessly?

I believe I provided a quote to match Fade-behaviour there too? Unfounded? You may disagree, but please attack the reasons for the idea. Not the idea. Or the person.

So you know for a fact that TP can not be used to cover noise? Even after Moridin flat out states that he has learned expertise in areas Sammael scorned, in direct relation to standing very still in order to avoid detection?

Standing still is not using TP to cover noise. He 'ghosted through the trees'. How is that using Power to avoid making noise. How would that prevent the noise a snapping twig makes? It's not described at all. Who's making stuff up here, Maj? You.

 

Would you not agreee that what the Fade & his steed did in the Westwood in TEotW, could very well apply here?

 

And speaking of that particular part, why would someone with a myrdraals abilities rely on fancloth to remain hidden in a forest, when myrdral are pretty much invisible in shadows? Why go through the trouble of making a full bodysuit out of fancloth, if all that is needed is to stand in a shadow to achieve the same result?

Maybe you should re-read the appropriate section again.

Because perhaps there was little to no shadow?

It's almost noon & the trees barely hold leaves;

Contemptuously Sevanna studied her dusty companions, seated in a circle with her in the small clearing. The nearly leafless branches overhead provided a bit of cool shade,.../ /...

[sevanna] looked up through the branches that nearly met above the clearing. The sun still had a way to climb to its peak. “If he has not come by midday, we will go.” It was too much to expect they would not grumble.

The Watcher came prepared. Myrddraal aren't invissible.

 

What made the Watchers skin prickle? Was it human tingling Goosebumps... or the "Fade-Itch"? (see quote in the other unfounded post ....again)

The Watcher must have been pretty far off... right?

Hmmm, I think I have read something about how a male channeler reacts when a woman channels...Oh right, the skin prickles. Gosh.

What is your problem? I said that too. How long are your feet? They're both possible, so they don't disprove or prove anything.

 

The prologue in TPoD is called "Deceptive Appearances" and in every part of that prologue it's a factor; deceptive appearances.

You think that last bit in that prologue with Moridins one of two POV's doesn't fall in that catergory?

Would the deceptive appearance in that POV be that he's more then just Moridin?

 

Ah yes, the whole point of that prologue was to link Moridin with SH, how could I miss something so obvious...

Forget it Maj.

If THIS is the way people debate around here, I understand how you all keep saying the same...

Can we keep the discussion friendly?

 

Never mind. You're right, Maj sir.

 

Ever wondered why the Nae'Bliss is just half a step below Shai'tan? Not one step.. or 3 steps.. No sir. 0,5 a step. Exactly half.

There's always been only one Nae'Bliss. From the very start. The Forsaken fight for a hollow promise.

Ishamael has always been linked to Myrddraal. After he died, Shai'tan just made a better link.

Exactly 0.5...You mean like Nynaeve could alone channel half of what ten trained Aes Sedai with a sa'angreal did?

 

And just how has Ishamael always been "linked" to myrdraal in a way no other forsaken has?

Never mind. You're right, Maj sir.

 

Debunk my idea that if the Watcher is just a person like you suggest, can not step outside the Pattern?

A myrdraal on the other hand -being partially outside time & reality- just might. Debunk that?

 

Uhm...Travelling with TP perhaps, like the text explicitly says he does. We know for a fact that Travelling with TP is different from Travelling with OP, this is established in the prologue of TEOTW.

 

And incidently, we have vacuoles. They exist outside the Pattern, yet they can be entered. In other words, it has been established that it is possible to step outside the Pattern.

Never mind. You're right, Maj sir.

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

What if Shaidar Haran IS the PoV of the Dark Ones shadowy form in Moridin? Oh wait, thats just speculation so I'll just get shot so forget it

[Luckers]

Mik, I'm sorry, there is no way to reply to your comments other than to point out what already has--that the very language difference employed between Shaidar Haren POV's and Moridin's completely diffeentiate them, and establish it as fact. RJ does not lie in POV's--he occaisionally has the characters lie to themselves, but he does not alter their personalities or perceptions in order to directly mislead us--at best he will ommit things.

 

The clear contradictions in the way Shaidar Haren and Moridin think of themselves and the way they percieve the world disprove this. He did not ommit things in order to not reveal the connections, he included things which directly counter-mand it.

 

Luckers focused on the stuff that proved the Watcher was Ishamael-recycled and thus Moridin. Luckers focused on the fact that the Watcher uses 'he' & 'his' and the mention of eyes as his main reasons.

 

Umm, no i didn't. I never made a single comment about the Watcher being Ishamael-recycled. I stated the differences between the use of "he" with "it", the differences between the Watcher using the True Power, with saa, and Shaidar Haren using the powers of Mydraal, without saa (or eyes). My point was, singularily, about the differences in the way the two characters think about themselves and describe the world. It didn't touch upon who these characters might be, just that they are not each other.

 

 

 

 

[Mik]

Mik, I'm sorry, there is no way to reply to your comments other than to point out what already has--

Sorry, but there is another way;

I brought up a few arguments that makes you wonder if the Watcher is a human.

I asked Maj to respond, but he starts treating me like I harmed him personally or something.

You could reply to those arguments.

 

that the very language difference employed between Shaidar Haren POV's and Moridin's completely diffeentiate them, and establish it as fact.

What language difference? If you mean the 'he' and  'it', I already gave a plausible reason for it. Shaidar Haran even explains it himself, wich is ironic;

 

Shaidar Haran turned its attention back to the woman twitching in its fist. Her face was beginning to go purple, and her feet kicked feebly. “You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body. You are adapting already. Soon it will be as if you had never had any other. Or you may refuse. Then another will take your place, and you will be given to . . . my brothers, blocked as you are.” Those  thin lips twitched again. “They miss their sport in the Borderlands.”

 

Shaidar Haran tells us that the mind has to get used to the new situation after transmigration, but eventually, the mind will bend to the body. The same goes for Ishamaels mind in a Myrddraal body.

The hint that this goes for Shaidar Haran as much as for the 'Gars even comes straight after that remark!

Shaidar almost makes a boo-boo by saying "and you will be given to the Myrddraal". Hence the pause right before "my brothers". RJ has used pauses like these lots of times when characters are about to reveal too much.

 

RJ does not lie in POV's--he occaisionally has the characters lie to themselves, but he does not alter their personalities or perceptions in order to directly mislead us--at best he will ommit things.

What makes you think that is not the case here?

Where did RJ have to lie in Shaidar Harans small PoV?

 

Nothing needs altering about Shaidar Harans personality to fit a Slayer-like connection to Moridin. Does Luc need to behave exactly like Isam? Nope, in fact, we know Isam liked hunting wolves more.

 

Misleading is what RJ does best; He's the Red Herring King. He's the one who invented Aes Sedai. RJ just ommited to state flat out that Shaidar Haran & Moridin are one, but the clues are there.

When I first read TGH & Ingtar confessed he was a Darkfriend, I was shocked. On my first re-read, there were more then enough hints and clues that he was. This is the same thing. All that lacks is the 'in-your-face' statement, but I'm sure that will come in AMoL.

 

The clear contradictions in the way Shaidar Haren and Moridin think of themselves and the way they percieve the world disprove this.

Part of that is answered already. Let's look at the only PoV of Shaidar Haran we know for a fact is his:

 

The Myrddraal moved from the deeper shadows, becoming visible. In its eyes, the gateways had left a residue—three patches of glowing mist. It could not tell one flow from another, but it could distinguish saidin from saidar by the smell. Saidin smelled like the sharp edge of a knife, the point of a thorn.

 

Saidar smelled soft, but like something that would grow harder the harder it was pressed. No other Myrddraal could smell that difference. Shaidar Haran was like no other Myrddraal. Picking up a discarded spear, Shaidar Haran used it to upend the bag Sammael had discarded, and then to stir the bits of stone that fell out. Much was happening outside the plan. Would these events churn chaos, or...

 

Angry black flames raced down the spear haft from Shaidar Haran’s hand, the hand of the Hand of the Shadow. In an instant the wooden haft was charred and twisted; the spearhead dropped off. The Myrddraal let the blackened stick fall and dusted soot from its palm. If Sammael served chaos, then all was well. If not...

 

A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come.

We see some nice abilities. Shaidar can see flows of the Power & can see residues in the form of mist. That would tie in nicely with the ability to see a link between two humans dissolve, would it not?

 

We see Shaidar worrying about 'that much was happening outside the plan'. That sounds like something Moridin would worry about very much, playing two sides of the board.

 

We see Shaidar ponder twice about Sammaels actions in relation to spreading chaos. Now, there's a direct relation to the Watcher, who does the exact same thing. Regardless of the direct relation with the Watcher, adding chaos is also what Moridin thinks about when killing Madic in a fit of rage.

 

We see Shaidar charr & twist a wooden spear he happened to have in his hand with angry black flames. RJ ommited this was True Power usage and didn't share the effect it had on Shaidar Haran. Unless you disagree this was Shaidar Haran using the True Power?

It's funny how we also see Moridin angrilly wreck something he happened to hold in the two PoV's we have of Moridin...;

[Morridins] hand closed around the two mindtraps, and the True Power closed around the Fisher, snatching it into the air, a hair from crushing it to powder, crushing the powder out of existence. The goblet shattered in his hand. His grip bordered on crushing the cour’souvra.

[Morridins] fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger

 

Lastly, we see Shaidar Haran has a tie to Shayol Ghul that weakens it,if he stays away for too long. Again, RJ could be ommiting that from Ishamael/ Moridin. But like I posted a few posts up, that's not proof that Moridin & Shaidar Haran can't be one creature. Especially since as Ishamael / Moridin seem to be close to Shayol Ghul at regular intervals ever since the War of Power.

 

Then there's the fact to consider that in chapter 40, it's Shaidar Haran watching Sammael & Graendal for sure. I'd say it's more obvious to believe that the same being observed that same group of people a few days earlier too.

 

He did not ommit things in order to not reveal the connections, he included things which directly counter-mand it.

Like what?

I think RJ ommited information to make this his jack-in-the-box for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

 

[Hybrid]

What if Shaidar Haran IS the PoV of the Dark Ones shadowy form in Moridin? Oh wait, thats just speculation so I'll just get shot so forget it

Dreadlord, if you want me to take this theory seriously, quote the passage, tell us why you think that, and so forth. 

[Mik]

Hey Hybrid. Here's a thought; why not entertain the thought yourself for a few hours and do some WoT reading?

 

Oh no.  Shaidar Haran = Moridin = Taim?  One theory to explain them all!  ;D

And in the darkness bind them? Is this same person Demandred and Rand as well, or would that just be silly?

Not at all.  Since there's no direct statement that Demandred is a different person than Moridin, they must be one and the same by default.  Same for Rand.  In fact, the trick to WOT is that all the characters are the multiple personalities of one man.

Or woman?

Yes, depending on how you look at it.

 

 

You'd find stuff like;

 

Could this be a clue about the nature of what defines the Nae'Blis. Is it merely coincidence he stands but half a step below Shai'tan?

 

Nae’blis, the one who would stand above all others, only a half step below the Great Lord himself after the Last Battle.

(TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 5 –The Forsaken)

 

-----------------------------------

 

All other Chosen are specifically named as ‘a man’ & ‘a woman’ in their description.

If you look at Asmo, Graendal & Semi specifically, the writer goes out of his/her way to put the word man or woman in. The sentence is wierd.

Where Ishamael is described, it's left out;

 

Aginor; ‘The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.’

Balthamel; ‘He was a good-looking man who enjoyed the company of women…’

Sammael; An active, solid man with golden hair…’

Rahvin; A tall dark man of large build…’

Be’lal; A tall, athletic man with close-cropped silver hair…’

Demandred; second only to LTT as the most honored and influential man of his age…’

Asmodean; Probably the man among the Forsaken with the most unusual reason…’

Lanfear; ‘…was probably one of the most beautiful women of her Age or any other…’

Grandeal; ‘The most flashy and decadent of all the Forsaken was the woman Graendal.’

Semirhage; ‘…the woman to be known as Semirhage…’

Mesaana; ‘A woman of average height and appearance…’

Moghedien; ‘A sturdily handsome dark-haired woman…’

(TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 5 – The Forsaken)

 

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How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake, but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful? RJ isn’t referring to Forsaken men only, since he included LTT at the end of the sentence, but on first glance it might look like this.

 

Aginor; the second most powerful man …/ /… came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.

(TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 5 – The Forsaken)

 

-----------------------------------

 

Hint hint!

 

Ba’alzamon fled, man and shadow [the shadowman] vanishing. (TDR, Chapter 55 - What Is Written in Prophecy)

 

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…and to be more than half-mad and less than half-human (TWoRJTWoT)

 

"So Be'lal is dead. The other sounds like Ishamael, to me [Moghedien]. All his pride at being only half-caught, whatever the price - there was less human left in him than any of us when I saw him again; I think he half-believed he was the Great Lord of the Dark - all his three thousand years of machinations, and it comes to an untaught boy hunting him down."

(TSR, Chapter 46 – Veils)

 

-----------------------------------

 

“Ishamael was more than half-mad,” Sammael muttered, “and less than half-human.”

“Is that what we are?” Graendal arched an eyebrow. “Merely human?

(TFoH, Prologue - The First Sparks Fall)

 

A youthful face had not made him [Moridin] any saner, either. [Demandred’s thoughts] (WH, Chapter 13 - Wonderful News)

[This suggests that nothing changed in the state of mind because of the transmigration]

 

But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him [Osan’gar]. The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning. He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that he was the Great Lord. (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

 

She [Aran’gar] had no regrets that the True Power was limited to his use alone, now. The price was much too high. Ishamael had certainly been at least half insane, and he still was as Moridin. How long before she could remove him?

(KoD, Chapter 3 – At the Gardens)

 

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The figure of a man floated in the air above the Myrddraal, the hem of his blood-red robe hanging a span over the Halfman’s head. Masked in blood-red, too. Would the Great Lord of the Dark appear to them as a man? And masked, besides? Yet the Myrddraal, its very gaze fear, trembled and almost cowered where it stood in the figure’s shadow. The man who called himself Bors grasped for an answer his mind could contain without splitting. One of the Forsaken, perhaps.

 

[RJ humor for ya]

 

And if you thought that was all... guess again.

 

[Fryn]

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake, but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful?

 

LTT was never a forsaken. He was the second strongest in power amoungst the forsaken, and also just below LTT the dragon who was the leader of the light at the time.

[Ndshacker]

Technically speaking, he is correct, this could mean that either LTT or Ishy was not a man. Which I find hard to believe

[Fryn]

Technically speaking, he is correct, this could mean that either LTT or Ishy was not a man. Which I find hard to believe

 

Well except for the fact that Mik missed the quote saying Ishy was nale.

 

Ishamael - Also known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark, the Soul of the Shadow, he was assuredly the Dark One's top captain-general despite the fact that he never held a direct field command. Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, he was equaled by none but LTT himself.

As Elan Morin Tedronai, he was one of the foremost philosophers of his time...

 

Really there is no doubt he was male, and he was known well before he turned to the shadow. They referenced Aginor to LTT and Ishy because Ishy was referenced to LTT. Unless you want to make the case that LTT wasn't male...

[Ndshacker]

Well, I do sometimes wonder about Rand :P

 

I really should have looked in ym copy of the BWB

[Luckers]

Thats what i mean when i say sorry, but i cannot reply to you arguments. They involve subjective analysis from quotes that could indicate anything--and the only response would be to point out the obvious differences between their two POV's yet again--which i agree, your arguments address. Do you see what i mean?

 

It's like say we had three arguments about a tree. The first and second describe its apples, the third its branches. I say "Well, clearly it is not an apple tree, that man described it in detail and never once mentioned an apple. I think the first two men must have been lying.".

 

Subjectively the comment is accurate--its not even logically fallacious, because i threw in the words 'i think', but factually its doubtful. Its the same with, say, your Ishamael not being a man argument. In every description by RJ he's referred to as a he, but you've found specific descriptions where he is not, and say "from there, i like to think this."

 

Functionally there is no response to that. Technically everything you've said is accurate. And the only way to respond would be to reiterate the previously stated descriptive differences in other scenes, which again your comment addresses.

 

It doesn't make your arguments probable, but there is no way to go about responding. Its what logicians call an infinite regress. We can only point out the relative probabilities of your arguments compared to their alternative interpretation, nothing more.

 

And doing so is a recipe for frustration which leads to the head butting you and I--and you and Maj, have been doing, and i dont know about you but i find it unpleasent and unproductive.

 

So, yeah, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

[Hybrid]

Hey Hybrid. Here's a thought; why not entertain the thought yourself for a few hours and do some WoT reading?

Hey, Mik.  Here's a thought: we are not all you.  I do not have my 11 books sitting right next to me where I can access them.  I am living at university now.  I have zero access to WOT to do the type of analyses required.  I have zero time to do any such analysis.  And even if I did, I would not, because it's not my theory and I don't need to support it.  And my comment was not addressed to you, it was addressed to Dreadlord, who was complaining that he was being accused of speculation.  Frankly, I think Luckers pinned it.  Your unique slant on things has you looking for meanings in every single expression written by RJ.  Now, if this ridiculous theory turns out to be true in AMOL, I will acknowledge your superior analyzing skills.  But I sincerely doubt it.  I think you are severely overanalyzing the use of everyday expressions and semantics without actually formulating a theory.

[Mik]

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake, but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful?

 

LTT was never a forsaken. He was the second strongest in power amoungst the forsaken, and also just below LTT the dragon who was the leader of the light at the time.

Sorry fryn, but incorrect.

I'll give an example; ‘The second most powerful man, known by the Barbie name Pinky, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.’

The middle part can be removed, without changing what the rest of the sentence means. It just tells us how he was called. I know it's hidden nicely at first glance, and that's why I already adressed that when I first mentioned it.

 

The sentence is either;

a: wrong, in the sense that Jordan had a mistake printed.

b: saying either LTT or Ishamael isn't a man.

 

There is no other plausible explanation. It's just wierd noone else picked it up.

Now if you combine that with the other tidbits I posted, you start seeing a pattern....you know... within the Pattern.

 

Technically speaking, he is correct, this could mean that either LTT or Ishy was not a man. Which I find hard to believe

Well except for the fact that Mik missed the quote saying Ishy was male.

 

Ishamael - Also known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark, the Soul of the Shadow, he was assuredly the Dark One's top captain-general despite the fact that he never held a direct field command. Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, he was equaled by none but LTT himself.

As Elan Morin Tedronai, he was one of the foremost philosophers of his time...

A; You might have missed the part that mentioned that 'so far as is know, all Myrddaal are male' (TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 7 – Shadowspawn (Myrddraal section, page 100).

B; Heck, even Shai'tan is referred to as male (TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 5, first page)

 

To top it off, it would be a dead give-away if Ishamael was referref to as 'it', would it not? Now I'm not saying that as proof, because all you need is above this statement. Just saying you thinking Ishamael being referred to as 'he'& 'him' proves nothing, because of "A" & "B".

 

And regardless, while Ishy has the longest written section, nowhere he is called a man. While in the sections where the other Forsaken are described -no matter how short those sections- the writer goes out of his way to make sure it's mentioned that those Forsaken are either 'a man' or 'a woman'. It just stood out. Especially Semirhage, Graendal & Asmo.

"Asmodean; Probably the man among the Forsaken with the most unusual reason…’" I mean.. come on! That hurts the eyes to read.

 

So, yeah, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

I agree with your post on most of what I quoted in reply to Hybrid.

Most of those are little hints you find when you know or want to see them. And I agree that some might mean nothing, but viewed in a bigger picture, they could.

 

As for the whole Chapter 20; I disagree with you there.

As I pointed out, the 'he' & 'it' can be explained.

As I showed, the line of reasoning of both Shaidar Haran & Moridin isn't all that different. In fact, I'd say they're fairly similar.

I asked for a decent explanation for events in chapter 20, but you are unwilling to adress them;

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

 

Now, all I've done is give my view on those same points -apples if you will- and why I believe the Watcher must be a myrddraal.

All I'd like from you, is your explanation of those points.

Ofcourse we can discuss those. You can either be willing or unwilling to adress them.

 

After you adress these points, we might agree to disagree. Or, you might swing me your side.

I'd like to believe it could swing you to my side.  :)

En garde!  ;D

 

Hey Hybrid. Here's a thought; why not entertain the thought yourself for a few hours and do some WoT reading?

Hey, Mik.  Here's a thought: we are not all you.  I do not have my 11 books sitting right next to me where I can access them.  I am living at university now.  I have zero access to WOT to do the type of analyses required.  I have zero time to do any such analysis.  And even if I did, I would not, because it's not my theory and I don't need to support it.  And my comment was not addressed to you, it was addressed to Dreadlord, who was complaining that he was being accused of speculation.  Frankly, I think Luckers pinned it.

If you like others to do your dirty work, I'd make you a bigger man if you just didn't make fun of it then. There's plenty of reasons for Dreadlords 'gut-feeling', and none for you or Mr Ares to be assholes about it.

 

Your unique slant on things has you looking for meanings in every single expression written by RJ.  Now, if this ridiculous theory turns out to be true in AMOL, I will acknowledge your superior analyzing skills.  But I sincerely doubt it.  I think you are severely overanalyzing the use of everyday expressions and semantics without actually formulating a theory.

I'll consider that a compliment of sorts. And be sure I'll remember these lines; memory never fades.  :D

 

I think you underestimate what RJ had planned for your mind....

I loved reading that quote I posted from Bors PoV at the Darkfriend meeting.

 

And about calling it "a theory", think "Shakespeare" & the name of a rose.

I swear, this smells just as sweet.  ;)

[Fryn]

Ishamael was known as Elan Morin Tedronai before Myrddraal were even created by Aginor.

[Mik]

Ishamael was known as Elan Morin Tedronai before Myrddraal were even created by Aginor.

*claps* He could have been a man then!

What does this disprove?

 

Luc was a man before he met Isam in the high passes!

How does that disprove Slayer?

[Fryn]

Except the BWB references that you were refering to in that section were for the chosen in the AoL only. That is why they made no mention to any of the 4 forsaken that were morphed at the current time. So trying to use that reference to prove something about Moridin is well... using the wrong information.

 

In fact if you look at the dates in the BWB you will notice that it was written after the Aiel war, but before the happenings of the series. Ontop of this the preface mentions that no documents made it out of the breaking that could be found so some of the data was innacurate.

[Mik]

Except the BWB references that you were refering to in that section were for the chosen in the AoL only. That is why they made no mention to any of the 4 forsaken that were morphed at the current time. So trying to use that reference to prove something about Moridin is well... using the wrong information.

What are the 'gars doing in the BWB then, at the end of the forsaken section? Isn't that for RJ to decide by the way; where to put clues?

 

In fact if you look at the dates in the BWB you will notice that it was written after the Aiel war, but before the happenings of the series.

It was written after Ishamael had died. His death was even mentioned. And you know what the beauty is? In the same sentence it says something like "Ishamael was killed by Rand in the Stone, but with the Lord of the Grave, death isn't final.

You got to love how that can also be read in two ways.

 

Ontop of this the preface mentions that no documents made it out of the breaking that could be found so some of the data was innacurate.

Ay yes. RJ's 'escape' when asked questions that came too close to revealing truths "hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret", I guess.

 

So, you think not calling Ishamael 'a man' , but forcing it in with all the other Forsaken is 'inacurate data', because of the mists of time?

*chuckles*

 

Maybe you should take a closer look at that piece I quoted partly above, that Rosel of Essam wrote. It survived the breaking;

Combine the following...

 

The tiny owl blinked at Egwene again. She tried not to look at it. “What does it say, Verin Sedai?” Verin blinked, very much as the owl had. “What does it say? It is a direct translation, mind, and reads almost like a bard reciting in High Chant. Listen. ‘Heart of the Dark. Ba’alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope. Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth. A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark? Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is—’ ” She stopped with a sigh. “It ends there. What do you make of it?”

(TDR, Chapter 21 - A World of Dreams)

 

 

Ba’alzamon (bah-AHL-zah-mon): In the Trolloc tongue, “Heart of the Dark.” Believed by most, erroneously, to be the Trolloc name for the Dark One.

(TSR, Glossary)

 

Though their [Myrddraal] names are always in the Trolloc tongue,...

(TWoRJTWoT, Chapter 7 – Shadowspawn (Myrddraal section, page 97)

My oh my, Myrddraal have a name in the trolloc tongue? Wierd, we never saw one...oh wait!

Ba'alzamon! But that's not trolloc language... that's just grunts and gutteral crap these days.

Could the hint be, that the Trollocs were given a name for Ishamael, because he is somwhow linked to a Myrddraal...?

Could Ba'alzamon actually be the name Trollocs were given for Shaidar Haran version 0.5?

 

[Fryn]

My fault. It was still written before Mordin was added to the series. I'm not saying the theory might not work... however you are using the wrong references.

 

The best chance you have for it to work is if going into and out of vacules they swap; kind of like how slayer changes when he enters or exits TAR. There is a scene where SH slams Modg into the vacule wall and enters a room to find Mordin in teh new room there. Of course the only reason that doesn't disprove the theory is Modg kept her eyes closed and only opened them when Mordin said she could.

 

It is possible... but it isn't provable. I wouldn't be shocked if it actually works like that, however it is just as likely, if not moreso, that Mordin is just Mordin. The final price for using the true power are the fire eyes not a blank face.

[vasu619]

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

 

I'm afraid I can only answer questions 2 and 5 ^_^, (and 3 with a bit of speculation, and an improbable answer)

 

2. Moridin also happens to be able to channel saidin, and he probably saw Sammael holding it.

 

3. A ward against eavesdropping? (I told you it was improbable):P

 

5. I believe that when you skim from one place to another, you step out of the pattern.

 

 

My oh my, Myrddraal have a name in the trolloc tongue? Wierd, we never saw one...oh wait!

Ba'alzamon! But that's not trolloc language... that's just grunts and gutteral crap these days.

Could the hint be, that the Trollocs were given a name for Ishamael, because he is somwhow linked to a Myrddraal...?

 

Myrdraal are just further twisted versions of trollocs, so it's no surprise to me that myrdraal have bames in the trolloc tongue.

 

Maybe the trollocs have names for other forsaken as well? We don't know do we? But thinking this is as baseless as suggesting the below:

 

Could Ba'alzamon actually be the name Trollocs were given for Shaidar Haran version 0.5?

 

 

[Swigaro]

I asked for a decent explanation for events in chapter 20, but you are unwilling to adress them;

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

 

1.  Though Moridin uses the TP exclusively, he can, so far as we know still channel Saidin.  Men who can channel can sense when a man is holding Sadin.  Men who can channel can sense when women are holding Saidar. 

2.  See 1.

3.  Is it unrealistic to believe that he could have channeled the TP (undetectable by any other channeler) to mask his presence and any sound he might make?  Is it not also stated that he is wearing a Fancloth suit?  That would only make him harder to see. 

4.  See 3.

5.  Read the description on Vacuoles in the BWB.  They exist outside the pattern.  Who have we seen use a Vacuole?  Moridin.  Stepping outside the pattern = weaving a gateway to a Vacuole.

 

As far as the description of him seeing the link dissolve, and that Sammael still held the power, I find it far more likely that it is a product of holding the TP.  Men and women can weild it, with the blessing of the DO, though its use can't be sensed by either.  IMO the difference in description if far more likely to be a result of use of the TP than that the watcher is anyone except Moridin.