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Equal yet not


sillyman
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RJ makes a big thing of equality ie. the DO and the Creator are equal and their champions Rand/LTT and Ishy/Mordin are equal.  Yet the creator imprisoned the DO and when LTT and Ishy met Mordin lost how is it possible that their equal yet the good guys always win??

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Guest Dreadlord

You havent thought about this much have you?

 

At the dawn of time, the Creator bound the Dark One and the Forsaken, so WoT mythology says, but there is so much wrong with that line alone and not many people think about it.

 

The Creator couldnt possibly have bound the Dark One and the Forsaken at the dawn of time; where were the Forsaken before time began? They didnt exist. Who bound the Forsaken? Lews Therin, not the Creator. Maybe not deliberately, but it was Lews Therin and NOT the Creator. Its just like Jesus-how could he possibly have done what people think he did? My guess is he didnt, the story has changed with every telling, just as with the Creator binding the Dark One at the dawn of time.

 

Aside from all that, equality doesnt always show in battle does it? There are a million different circumstances that could pop out of nowhere to turn the balance in any struggle and the fact that the Creator and the Dark One are equall means absolutely nothing in the series anyway since the Creator doesnt do anything, its mankind that fights the Shadow. the bad guys in WoT seem so self-absorbed sometimes, so sure that they will win or even have already won, that they gloat too much, and waffle away the time they could have used to win.

 

Equality, and even power levels, mean next to nothing when Ta'veren are present-Ta'veren comes into everything, affects everything

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You havent thought about this much have you?

Wow Dreadlord. Who made you Mr Ares?

Get of that high horse, you parrot.

 

RJ makes a big thing of equality

Not exactly. RJ seemed to have used balance as a major theme in his work. Equality and balance may appear the same at first glance, but they're not.

The example of darkness & light has been used to death, but thats only because it's so easy to show the difference between balence and equality.

Dark and Light are balanced; one doesn't have a bases to define itself without the existence of the other.

Blue Light & Red Light of the same intensity could be considered equal (besides the color)

 

I hope that explains the difference and your confusion.

 

ie. the DO and the Creator are equal and their champions Rand/LTT and Ishy/Mordin are equal.

Sorry, but 'no sigar', sillyman.

 

If by equal, you actually mean that Rand & Moridin are meant to balance eachother, you're closer to the mark.

 

Yet the creator imprisoned the DO and when LTT and Ishy met Mordin lost how is it possible that their equal yet the good guys always win??
Actually, that the Light is always victorious is not a given at all.

Each turning of the Wheel there is a moment in time, where Shai'tan (the absence of everything) can win and all of creation will sease to exist; Tarmon Gai'don.

The Dragon has to make the right choices and needs to do the right thing(s) for Creation to deflect being uncreated for another turning.

 

Hope that helped.

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Cool Im a parrot riding a big horse

Cool Im a parrot riding a big horse

Oh look; you changed your first post.

That one-liner was just plain rude. I thought I'd repay the favor & answer the guys question.

 

Let me adres your edit while I'm here anyway...

 

blahblahblah... have you?

 

At the dawn of time, the Creator bound the Dark One and the Forsaken, so WoT mythology says, but there is so much wrong with that line alone and not many people think about it.

 

The Creator couldnt possibly have bound the Dark One and the Forsaken at the dawn of time; where were the Forsaken before time began? They didnt exist. Who bound the Forsaken? Lews Therin, not the Creator. Maybe not deliberately, but it was Lews Therin and NOT the Creator. Its just like Jesus-how could he possibly have done what people think he did? My guess is he didnt, the story has changed with every telling, just as with the Creator binding the Dark One at the dawn of time.

You're right about the forsaken ofcourse.

But how is this an answer to sillymans view & question?

Are you saying that the Creator didn't bind Shai'tan when he created the Wheel?

 

Aside from all that, equality doesnt always show in battle does it? There are a million different circumstances that could pop out of nowhere to turn the balance in any struggle and the fact that the Creator and the Dark One are equall means absolutely nothing in the series anyway since the Creator doesnt do anything, its mankind that fights the Shadow.

That's funny. I think you're making the same mistake there as sillyman; mixing up equality & balance.

 

Whatever gave you the idea that Shai'tan is equal to the Creator?

Shai'tan is the 'dark counterpart' of the Creator. The 'balancing' factor. Nothing equal about that.

 

the bad guys in WoT seem so self-absorbed sometimes, so sure that they will win or even have already won, that they gloat too much, and waffle away the time they could have used to win.

 

Equality, and even power levels, mean next to nothing when Ta'veren are present-Ta'veren comes into everything, affects everything

If you're saying that being Ta'veren is the answer to everything, you are mistaken.

 

"Don't worry; Rand is Ta'veren. He can't go wrong. Besides, the Forsaken are numbskulls" Pfff

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Where does it say the creator bound the forsaken, that was a by product of LTT sealing the bore the 13 were just in the wrong/right place (depending on your point of view) at the time.

 

plus i defiantly recall it being stated that Moridin was LTT only equal in terms of power and his actions confirm this.  Moreover one power strength seems to be the main factor in the deciding in one power duals.  Nyeneave and Moggies dual reflects this and rands dual with lanfear.

 

Equality and balance may appear the same at first glance, but they're not.

 

I agree but is int it true that the Creator and the Dark One are equal??

 

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Calm down both of you (Mik and Dreadlord--yeah Mik, i'm including you. once again if you have a problem with a post bring it to myself or Maj. It is NOT your place to bring people to task over their posts.)

 

Sillyman, you raise an interesting point--one that ive been posting on for some time--but not in the way you have.

 

For starters the only things RJ has ever stated to be equal opposites were saidin and saidar and the One Power and the True Power. RJ has never made a comment within the books or outside of the to indicate that the Creator and the Dark One were equal in strength.

 

Indeed, consider the nature of what we know--you cited that the fact the the Creator imprisoned the Dark One implies that the Creator is more powerful--i'd actually say evidence implies the opposite. The Creator did not, by what we know, cage Shai'tain. Instead by every description we have what he did was created the wheel in a circle that excludes the Dark One. If we are looking for metaphors the reality is much closer to a fortified city building walls to exclude the Dark One, than building a prison to contain him.

 

If we're looking at the the mythological wording for clues as to the power of each being, nothing implies the Creator would have been able to defeat the Dark One in a direct fight. He built a reality with walls to hold off the enemies at the gate--indeed, if anything the inference in that is that the Creator was avoiding the confrontation, hiding from it.  It implies that the Creator could well have been the weaker entity.

 

plus i defiantly recall it being stated that Moridin was LTT only equal in terms of power and his actions confirm this.  Moreover one power strength seems to be the main factor in the deciding in one power duals.  Nyeneave and Moggies dual reflects this and rands dual with lanfear.

 

Firstly you are wrong. There were millions of channelers in the Age of Legends, Lews Therin and Elan Morin would not have been the only men at that strength.

 

 

Secondly strength is not the main factor in deciding one power duals--this has been directly commented on by RJ, but if you need proof consider the Alivia/Cyndane dual. Alivia with all those ter'angreal not to mention an angreal that made her twice Cyndanes strength barely survived. Knowledge of the power plays a massive massive role.

 

Moghedian's dual with Nynaeve played out because Moghedian was stupid enough to go in direct open attack--once all of her strength was commited to the attempting to shield Ny and cutting Ny's attempts to shield her she had no strength left over with which to weave more interesting attacks. If she drew any strength away Ny's shield would have cut her off immediately. Which is more or less what happened when Ny distracted her with the male a'dam.

 

I agree but is int it true that the Creator and the Dark One are equal??

 

We have nothing to suggest that, no.

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Guest Dreadlord
If you're saying that being Ta'veren is the answer to everything, you are mistaken

 

In other words you didnt get my point right, because I never said Ta'veren is the answer to everything. I said it comes into everything. I suppose I should have said it CAN come into anything but I never said it solves everything.

 

And just for the record, I added the rest to my first post before anyone else replied as I realised it might have seemed abit harsh but still, I make no apologies.

 

Anyway back to the subject, lets not nitpick on the difference between equality and balance, we all knew what sillyman meant. Equality, balance, whatever you wana call it, doesnt necessarily mean that each side will win an equal ammount of times if the battle is fought again and again. While we have no evidence that the Creator and the Dark One are equall in power, balanced in power, on par with each other (get it?) there isnt much against it other than a) the Creator was strong enough to imprison Shaitan, and b) Shaitan is breaking free. One point on either side, call that balanced, or equal, or on par, or whatever you want, but it makes no difference to the books.

 

Personally I dont even think Rand and Moridin are balanced, equall, on par, whatever. Moridin has far superior knowledge of the Power, and he uses the True Power which has its benefits, Rands health situation is grim, he cant even use the Power without the sickness and Lews Therin is there waiting to grab Saidin. If you ask me Moridin is statistically the favorite

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Thing is, it is quite relevant to differentiate between equal and balance here.

 

If the Creator and the DO had been equal, we should not see the DO imprisoned for all eternity, we should not see the Light emerge victorious fro  every crucial  battle. Rather, we should see them take turns when it comes to winning and losing, and the prison would be a divine version of a time-out.

 

However, considering the nature of the DO, and the DOs agenda, this is simply not possible in the world RJ created. The DO wants to destroy the Wheel of Time, and remake the world completely. Which means that if the DO wins, it is Game Over.

 

Balance on the other hand, that is quite a different story. It is not necessary for all the players to be equal in power to achieve the required balance, as long as everyone plays their parts as planned.

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Just a thought here about equality of light/dark.  Doesn't directly pertain to the books, but consider it, since WoT (like most fantasy) is the proverbial struggle between light and dark/good and evil:

 

Light can exist without shadow, but shadow can't exist without light.

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Guest Dreadlord

Exactly. Darkness covers everything when there is no light, and light MAKES shadows which is lesser darkness; darkness doesnt have to do anything to be there, and it cant be removed without light, and even that is only temporary. Darkness prevails! I win again, Lews Therin

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Guest Dreadlord

Darkness is a greater natural force, without light it would be everywhere. Darkness is infinite, light is finite. When our sun dies, what happens? Darkness! You can never EVER find an end to darkness. Light cannot reach round corners; darkness is already there and always was

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That darkness is more prevalent doesn't make it more powerful.

 

Even when the sun dies, there are other stars which bring light to every corner.

Even in the darkest depths of the ocean, there are creatures who create light.

 

Darkness doesn't put out a fire; a fire dies from lack of fuel, not darkness.  Darkness simply occupies the space where the light was.  If a new fire was lit in its place, the darkness would retreat once again.

 

 

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Calm down both of you (Mik and Dreadlord--yeah Mik, i'm including you. once again if you have a problem with a post bring it to myself or Maj. It is NOT your place to bring people to task over their posts.)

You're right. It's not my place, I guess.

I just saw Dreadlords very blunt one-line responce, while that person himself didn't appear to have a clue himself. Somehow, that rubbed me the wrong way and I repaid Dreadlord with equal coin. I shouldn't have done that in those harsh words. So, I'm sorry Dreadlord.

 

As a sidenote; one has to admire the irony of the following;

We should change this thread name to nitpicking. We all know what was meant by the word equal

That's after my, yours & Mai's explenation about how interesting & relevant the difference actually is. If you recall what Dready replied to sillyman in the first place, that's called "priceless" in my book.

 

Anyway. Nuff said.

 

Firstly you are wrong. There were millions of channelers in the Age of Legends, Lews Therin and Elan Morin would not have been the only men at that strength.??

I agree with the jest of your post, Luckers. But on this piont you're on slippery ice, I think.

Yes, logic suggests there were millions of channelers in the AoL. If you look at it statistaclly only, there is indeed a small chance that LTT was highest strenght-wise. First off, that means there's still that chance, however small it is.

 

But I think there's more evidence that LTT was 'at the top of the food chain' OP-strenght wise then against it. He's stronger then all of the living Forsaken. He's also stronger then all of the living channelers around in the Third Age.

Most of those Forsaken were top-dogs in the Shadows forces during the AoL/ Breaking. But also before they went over to the Shadow, most were admired and respected for their work and we see thoughts of some of the Forsaken of how strong they were in comparison to others back then.

I guess it's a small point though.

 

I agree but is int it true that the Creator and the Dark One are equal??

We have nothing to suggest that, no.

In fact everything in the books screams 'they are not equal at all'.

 

Just a thought here about equality of light/dark.  Doesn't directly pertain to the books, but consider it, since WoT (like most fantasy) is the proverbial struggle between light and dark/good and evil:

 

Light can exist without shadow, but shadow can't exist without light.

To understand what we're trying to say, you have to approach this from the spiritual side and not from a scientific side, I think. In terms of Light and the absence of Light (lightlessness/ darkness/ whatever you want to call it). Sprirtually, both are needed to define the other. Like Order needs Chaos for it to bear any meaning.

 

Edit:

Funny detail (atleast, *I* think it is); the original meaning of the word "Chaos" (from the ancient Greeks) mean's 'nothingness'/'primal emptiness' instead of how it's used today. One more thing to consider when trying to figure out what Shai'tan actually represents. (the absence of everything; 'uncreation')

Especially 'in light' (hee hee), of what the ancient Greeks 'counterpart' to Chaos was; "an Orderly or harmonious system" (Cosmos).

Wheel anyone???

:)

 

Gawd, I love a good discussion. Nittpicking or not.

(was that under the belt?) :P

 

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Wow some people here are really touchy!

 

Anywho, the thing that gets me is why people assume Shaitan wants there to be nothing-he doesnt want to rule the world afetr TG, he wants it to not be there, according to what many people think.

 

Can anyone explain why they believe this is Shaitans goal? Whats the point of going through all this trouble of breaking free and whatnot just for him to, well, do nothing till the Creator rolls up his sleeves again?

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Anywho, the thing that gets me is why people assume Shaitan wants there to be nothing-he doesnt want to rule the world afetr TG, he wants it to not be there, according to what many people think.

 

Can anyone explain why they believe this is Shaitans goal? Whats the point of going through all this trouble of breaking free and whatnot just for him to, well, do nothing till the Creator rolls up his sleeves again?

 

I think we were shown what kind of world would be left in TGH when Rand,Loial and Hurin went through the Portal Stone. Plus its prob just the DO's nature. scorpion/frog syndome

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Anywho, the thing that gets me is why people assume Shaitan wants there to be nothing-he doesnt want to rule the world afetr TG, he wants it to not be there, according to what many people think.

 

Can anyone explain why they believe this is Shaitans goal? Whats the point of going through all this trouble of breaking free and whatnot just for him to, well, do nothing till the Creator rolls up his sleeves again?

Shai'tan is the dark counterpart of existence. In essence, that means he's unexistence and tries to persuade creation into uncreating themselves.

 

Concepts like these are on the border of what we can immagine, I guess.

but the fact that we can't see a reason doesn't mean there isn't any. The fact that there isn't any reason we understand for achieving a goal (or maybe there just isn't a reason) doesn't mean the goal can't be strived for.

 

Maybe it's easier to understand for you if you try to come up with a fundamental answer to why a Creator would want to create anything where there was nothing?

It's just as hard to come up with a plausable reason, but the concept is easier to grasp, because 'we' (as humans) see a reason for existence by default. If existence "wasn't", we wouldn't be either.

 

*shrugs* Hope that helped. Ugh...?

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Just a thought here about equality of light/dark.  Doesn't directly pertain to the books, but consider it, since WoT (like most fantasy) is the proverbial struggle between light and dark/good and evil:

 

Light can exist without shadow, but shadow can't exist without light.

To understand what we're trying to say, you have to approach this from the spiritual side and not from a scientific side, I think. In terms of Light and the absence of Light (lightlessness/ darkness/ whatever you want to call it). Sprirtually, both are needed to define the other. Like Order needs Chaos for it to bear any meaning.

Agreed.  That's the underlying principle of yin/yang - two forces which are polar opposites but yet depend on each other for definition, and yin/yang is obviously part of the philosophical base of WOT.  Philosophically, light is a relative term, just as darkness is.  It's human nature - we perceive everything as relative to our own personal scales.  If there wasn't darkness as we know it, we wouldn't perceive shadow in the same way.

 

Maybe it's easier to understand for you if you try to come up with a fundamental answer to why a Creator would want to create anything where there was nothing?

It's just as hard to come up with a plausable reason, but the concept is easier to grasp, because 'we' (as humans) see a reason for existence by default. If existence "wasn't", we wouldn't be either.

 

*shrugs* Hope that helped. Ugh...?

Well, the Wheel of Time philosophy depends a lot on destiny and purpose.  People are unable to step too far from their purpose.  One could argue that the Creator created the Wheel because that was his purpose.  By the same (dangerously paradoxical) logic, Shai'tan wants to destroy the Wheel because that is his purpose as the antithesis of the Creator. 

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I always thought that when Shaitan broke free he would destroy the Wheel (not the world) and the fact that the Wheel is broken would mean that nothing could stand against him-if the Wheel broke, it could no longer spin out its heroes and Dragons and create Ta'veren. If the Dark One defeated Rand and broke free, he would rid the world of the Creators only influence, and thus be able to remake the world however he wanted. I very much doubt he would go to all this trouble for there to be nothing-he cant create his own world, but he can steal one, at least thats how I saw it

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I always thought that when Shaitan broke free he would destroy the Wheel (not the world) and the fact that the Wheel is broken would mean that nothing could stand against him-if the Wheel broke, it could no longer spin out its heroes and Dragons and create Ta'veren. If the Dark One defeated Rand and broke free, he would rid the world of the Creators only influence, and thus be able to remake the world however he wanted. I very much doubt he would go to all this trouble for there to be nothing-he cant create his own world, but he can steal one, at least thats how I saw it

Well. I'm sorry you doubt that the very essence of what was parked 'outside all of creation', would utterly want to unmake all that it itself is not. Shai'tan cares nothing for anything even near to creation. In fact, "care" is about as alien a concept to Shai'tan as "the absence of everything" is to us.

 

The Wheel is woven from lives & events; removing it from the equation is removing the building blocks that make all the worlds. If he breaks the Wheel, he breaks all the worlds.

Shai'tan can't "remake" anything. The only way for him to influence threads is by removing (unmaking) bits and pieces.

He corrupts Creation by removal only. He's nothing more but a hollow promise.

 

When the Wheel breaks, the world is gone and Creation is unmade. All that is left is a "Memory of Light". ;)

 

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