What is "A remnant of a remnant"?

[GrandpaG]

I've run across several different interpretations of this.

 

Some think that all of the Aiel except for a few will be wiped out.

Some think that the Shaido will be terminated.

Some say only the Tinkers will survive.

Just the ones who follow Rand?

Only the ones who wear the headband with the ancient Aes Sedai symbol?

Who will survive?

What does the prophecy really predict?

Can it be literally interpreted?

Is it meant to only apply to one clan or sept?

How do you interpret the dire prediction?

[trakand_01]

I've had this conversation with friends and they generally start by trying to identify the second / surviving 'remnant'.

 

Wrong tactic, I think. First of all, you need to ascertain what the first remnant was a remnant OF.

 

For them to be a remnant, the original must have been destroyed or lost somehow.

 

I dont have the answer, but I think it is like saying that if the world was destroyed tomorrow, and only newts survived, they would be 'a remnant of a remnant' of the dinosaurs. The first remnant being the reptiles, the second remnant being all that is left - the newt.

[Swigaro]

I have always interprated this to be the Tinkers.  In Rand's Ruhidian flashback the Aes Sedai tells Rand's ancestor, "Remember the Way, if you loose everything else, remember that.  The Way is the Dishan Aiel," or something to that effect (I am at work, far from my books, so pardon my inaccurate quote).  She makes it clear that the Way of the Leaf is what makes them Aiel.  Only a remnant of the Aiel remember the way, as such, I would say only a remnant of the Tinkers will survive.  They are, though they don't know it the only remaining "true" Aiel.  Just my opinion...

[helmethero]

Perhaps the first remnant is just all the Aiel.  They are now only Aiel in name, since none of them follow the way of the leaf.  They are no longer all that they used to be.  Then the second remnant is those that survive TG.  Just a thought.

[MsDanya]

I agree with Swigaro on this one, that its the Tinkers. The JEnn Aiel was the remnant of the AoL aiel, and the Tinkers are whats left of the Jenn Aiel.

[GrandpaG]

The Jenn were a remnant of those who left in the original wagon train.

 

The Aiel and Tinkers splintered from that remnant.

 

Who's the newt?

[a pale tanned lover]

I always thought it meant the Aiel who survive TG, many are throwing down their spears now and embracing the Way of the Leaf, or just runing away, so i just think it will be the few left of the Aiel society in the aftermath

[Roxinos]

I agree with a pale tanned lover. I never thought of it as anything more than an elaborate metaphor used to describe something simple like the relative scarcity of the Aiel after the Last Battle.

[Kaznen]

I always thought it meant the Aiel who survive TG, many are throwing down their spears now and embracing the Way of the Leaf, or just runing away, so i just think it will be the few left of the Aiel society in the aftermath

 

That's what I thought.  In WH Rand commented that a lot of the "throwing down spears and running away Aiel" ended up in Far Madding working as servants.

 

I also thought it was referring to the Ga'shian who keep being Ga'shain after their time is up.

[Paviel]

Whatever the remnant of the remnant is, Aviendha has to be part of it.

 

After all, she's going to have Rand's babies, she isn't even pregnant yet, and Tarmon Gai'don is less than nine months away.

[mb]

I think there would be 2 phases involved.

 

First phase I think would start with the Aiel that existed at the time of Rand's coming.

The end of that phase I think would be those who acknowledge Rand as the car'a'carn and follow him.

 

Second phase I think would be Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Those who are pregnant or will be pregnant would probably survive both phases.

[Luckers]

Firstly, I think it should be noted that the exact phrase is 'the remnant of a remnant'. Its an important distinction I think, because it changes the subject of the sentence. A remnant of a remnant is sequential, it continues on adding to the description. The remnant of a remnant sperates the sentence--by which I mean it makes each remnant refer to a different thing.

 

Which is a fancy way of saying that rather than simply mean that the Aiel are gonna get nearly wiped out--that there will be only a remnant of a remnant left numbers wise, i think the phrase repesents a sequence of changes within the Aiel. But thats all esoteric gibberish.

 

The actual reality of it all is that i think the modern Aiel are already one of the remnants spoken of. Consider that the prophecy was spoken by Aes Sedai living with the Jenn, who remembered the Dai'shain and the First Covenant--still lived it, really. Modern Aiel as they are are a remnant of the Dai'shain, and I think that is the first step in the chain--a fact that is added to by the fact that whoever spoke the prophecy actually used the words 'those that call themselves Aiel' indicating quite clearly that from their perspective (of which the Foretelling was spoken) modern Aiel are not actually Aiel. It's the same as the whole 'so-called Aiel' thing.

 

So irrespective of whether or not it refers to deaths and damage i dont think its going to be as severe as the wording 'a remnant of a remnant' suggests (hence my first paragraph).

 

From there though I would say that I actually don't think the prophecy refers to Aiel dying in great numbers at all. Oh, I think that will happen--the Aiel are way to into the whole 'till water is gone, till shade is gone' thing not to be at the head of the fight in Tarmon Gai'don, so they are going to be taking heavy lossed. I just don't think that prophecy refers to them dying Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Consider that the prophecy says 'He will spill the blood of those that call themselves Aiel as if water on sand, and he shall break them as with dried twigs, but the remnant of a remnant will he save, and they shall live.'

 

That indicates to me that what's going on with the remnants results directly from Rand's actions against the Aiel. Specifically, I'm talking about the revelation of the First Covenant and the sin of the Aiel. Thats were the decline of the modern Aiel began, where things began to get nasty.

 

So thats my argument--or more precisely my argument is that the remnant of a remnant refers to a social change, not to great losses. Modern Aiel whose culture stems from the Dai'shain are a remnant, and the Aiel that will exist after Tarmon Gai'don will be much the same--similar to the modern Aiel, born from that culture, but different.

 

And consider how its already begun--the revelation of the Aiel's past and the bleakness, the fact that Aiel are mixing for the first time with the non-Aiel on a social level, the Wise Ones getting over their fear of Aes Sedai and standing up for themselves, the Wise Ones fighting--and consider how it will continue, with the truth of the Aiel known to all Aiel they will have to devise a new method of selecting chiefs, with travelling the Waste cannot remain so hidden away, so the Aiel are going to have to take their place on the world stage. With men able to channel the Wise One organisation will need to expand to include men, or adapt to their presense in some way. The entire gender system will be thrown into chaos.

 

Rand is the beginning of all of it--he stripped away what the Aiel were--or did things that will strip away even more of how they lived. It's why aiel are becoming siswai'aman--because their culture is falling apart.

 

They'll survive, but they'll be different. I do hope they cling to ji'e'toh though.

[GrandpaG]

I don't know what I think.

 

There are so many different, interesting, valid viewpoints.

 

I think I lean toward inclusion of the Tinkers...even though they don't call themselves Aiel, they are of the bloodline of the Daishain Aiel.  I feel like they have to be included in the first remnant along with the modern Aiel.

 

The trouble that I have with ANY kind of prophecy is the vagueness.  "The Dragon will be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount." says nothing about when or under what conditions...or even what sex the child will be.  People who look at famous forecasters works seriously are being duped, IMO.  "It's gonna rain."  Somewhere it rains.  WOW!  That GrandpaG said this was gonna happen way back then!  He must be magic!  You can make stuff fit prophecy to your own desire.  Whatever happens, the Aiel will see it as being "the remnant of a remnant" surviving somehow based on their superstitions.

 

Maybe the Tinkers aren't involved?  It's a modern day Aiel prophecy.  It's not left over from the Age of Legends, right?  Well, maybe it is since the Aes Sedai with the Jenn said it.  I don't know what to think.

 

INPUT...NEED MORE INPUT!!!

(that's my imitation of #7 from Short Circuit -- most of you are probably too young to have watched it growing up)  :-[

[trakand_01]

I loved Short Circuit, and Flight of the Navigator and all that  ;D

[Luckers]

Well again, one thing is clear--the prophecy speaks of the remnants involving 'those that call themselves Aiel'. The language directly links the two. The remnant of a remnant--it might well be a remnant of a remnant of those that call themselves Aiel, or it might be as i suggest, that those that call themselves Aiel are the first remnant, and that the second remnant will come from them--but either way a chronological step in the sequence is those that call themselves Aiel. The Tinkers do not call themselves Aiel, or stem from them--they are out. Different interpretations can be made to what remnants imply, and from what they come--but the tinkers do not call themselves Aiel. Endgame.

 

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

I don't know what I think.

 

There are so many different, interesting, valid viewpoints.

 

I think I lean toward inclusion of the Tinkers...even though they don't call themselves Aiel, they are of the bloodline of the Daishain Aiel.  I feel like they have to be included in the first remnant along with the modern Aiel.

 

The trouble that I have with ANY kind of prophecy is the vagueness.  "The Dragon will be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount." says nothing about when or under what conditions...or even what sex the child will be.  People who look at famous forecasters works seriously are being duped, IMO.  "It's gonna rain."  Somewhere it rains.  WOW!  That GrandpaG said this was gonna happen way back then!  He must be magic!  You can make stuff fit prophecy to your own desire.  Whatever happens, the Aiel will see it as being "the remnant of a remnant" surviving somehow based on their superstitions.

 

Maybe the Tinkers aren't involved?  It's a modern day Aiel prophecy.  It's not left over from the Age of Legends, right?  Well, maybe it is since the Aes Sedai with the Jenn said it.  I don't know what to think.

 

INPUT...NEED MORE INPUT!!!

(that's my imitation of #7 from Short Circuit -- most of you are probably too young to have watched it growing up)  :-[

 

I am not sure how correct you are, while we know the Tinkers splintered off from the origial Aiel, I am not sure how much of the old Aiel blodlines they have. The fact is they have mixed with all the nations out of the waste. After lets say 2800 years, their bloodlines are very diluted, and you would have to look very far in the past to consider them true blood Aiel.  It would be safe to say they are far more desendets of the people beyond the watse, than to any of the True Aiel.   The Aiel wise ones know this prophecy, not the tinkers.  There can be no doubt at all that this prophecy speaks of the Aiel that come from the waste.

 

 As for what that prophecy intends to mean, I have no idea, I just assume that most of the Aiel are gonna die in the last battle or before, which is happing right now.  I am not sure how many Aiel there are, but problay no more than 2 million or so.  The question is what is the remnant that will be left?  could be 100,000?  There are certinaly at least 100k left in the waste.

 

But I think it is very far strech to call the Tinkers true Daishan Aiel, they are not Aiel in any way, accpet in the fact they follow, The Way of the Leaf.

 

[Swigaro]

I think Luckers has hit the nail on the head.  My assumption that the remnant of a remnant had nothing to do with bloodlines or even knowledge that they were even connected with the Aiel.  It was strictly because of the comment the AoL Aes Sedai made about the Way of the Leaf.  The Tinker's are the only ones who keep to the way, thus, they are the only "true" Aiel.  That being said, the fact that the fortelling was made by the Aes Sedai who was witht the Jenn (a fact that I forgot), and that the fortelling specificly states "Those who now call themselves Aiel," makes it very clear, to me at least that the remnant has nothing to do with the Tinkers.  I am convinced...  Excellent post Lucker...

[GrandpaG]

I put as much stock in Foretelling as I do Prophecy...very vague...easy to say "see...just like they said".  What a skeptic, huh?  Elaida had a foretelling about the bloodline of Andor...boy did she mistake THAT one.  And how about Aes Sedai walking the grounds of the Black Tower?  Min's stuff seems to be more accurate as do Egwene and Perrin's viewings in TR/wolf dream.  Even so, Min is interpreting what she sees...I'm waiting for her to say "Oooppss...sorry...I misunderstood that one".  Egwene and Perrin don't really seem to fully realize what they are seeing yet.  I'm off subject...sorry.  :-[

 

Since the foreteller specifically eliminated the Tinkers, and because of the dilution of their bloodlines (which I had never considered before...thanks), the first remnant has to be limited to the modern day Aiel just like Luckers said.  No, I'm not sucking up to the smart guy...just agreeing.  ;D  Sorry to those among us who originally voted for the Tinkers (myself included).

 

Because this is a prophecy, however many modern day Aiel are still alive after the Last Battle will be seen as the second remnant...the prophecy must be fulfilled.  What good is prophecy if it never happens, right?  ;)

 

I hereby predict that the maidens will not be left behind from TG.

:)

[Paviel]

Even so, Min is interpreting what she sees...I'm waiting for her to say "Oooppss...sorry...I misunderstood that one".

 

That'll happen as soon as she finds out that Moiraine is still alive.

[Mr Ares]

Even so, Min is interpreting what she sees...I'm waiting for her to say "Oooppss...sorry...I misunderstood that one".

That'll happen as soon as she finds out that Moiraine is still alive.

Not really. It would make her wrong about seeing Moiraine die, but that wasn't a viewing. Lots of people saw that.

[Darth_Andrea]

Well look at the numbers of Aiel who are out of the fight right now. The Shiado are back to the waste and not following Rand. I don't see them rushing in to help last minuite. And each clan left numbers of people in their holds when they went to Rand. So lets just assume that the Aiel as we know them now are the first remnate, those left behind could be considered the second. If all or Most of the Aiel following Rand die in the last battle.

 

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea   

[deathgate]

The Tinker's are the only ones who keep to the way, thus, they are the only "true" Aiel.

 

I disagree with this as the Amiyar seem to also be formerly Aiel who were thrown into oceans and also followed the way of the leaf. A group is also hinted at in Seanchan in the person of the personal servant of the deathwatch guard who rescues Tuon. I don't remember whether they followed the way of the leaf. Only the Aiel use "Aiel" as part of their name so only they would be in the prophesy (as indeed the Amiyar had their own).

[a pale tanned lover]

I think the Way of the Leaf is just a belief, like a religion, as i mentioned earlier i think it will be the Aiel who last after TG but even then i think more will leave and go elsewhere, like a stone in a pond, TG is only one ripple. Whatever lasts after the ripple will be the remmant of a remmant. thats  just my thought tho.

[Calantyr]

When was the prophecy first made? Because that has a direct effect on what it means. I know of at least four distinct peoples descended from "those who call themselves Aiel". The Tuatha'an, the 'Aiel', the Jenn Aiel, and the Amayar. Two of those have already died out (the Jenn and the Amayar) and the Tuatha'an seem to be going the same way. As a result the whole of the Aiel sand-ninja people that we have come to know and love could be considered a 'remnant of a remnant', even though the Waste is full to the brim with them.

 

If 'remnant of a remnant' refers to memory that would also indicate Waste-Aiel as they remember only a remnant of a remnant of who they originally were. Perhaps the Aiel Wise One's and Chiefs already HAVE saved a remnant of a remnant. To be 'Aiel' is more than just picking up a spear and drinking oosqui, it's following tradition, history, and law. By travelling to Rhidean and care-taking their people the Wise One's and Clan Chiefs have kept the original nature of the Aiel alive, even if only they remember it. In short, they have saved "a remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel people.

 

Prophecy's like that, it doesn't necessarily have to mean the most obviously answer to be 100% accurate.

[Luckers]

When was the prophecy first made?

 

It is spoken in the form of a fortelling during the Pact of Rhuidean, though we do not know that it did not exist previously.

 

I know of at least four distinct peoples descended from "those who call themselves Aiel". The Tuatha'an, the 'Aiel', the Jenn Aiel, and the Amayar.

 

There is no factual evidence to sustain that the Amayar were once Aiel. By description they remained a genetically distinct race (unlike the tuatha'an) yet never is it commented that the Aiel and the Amayar are similar in appearence--and it would have been. The only base reason is that the Water Way and the Way of the Leaf are both pacifistic beliefs, and yet they in themselves are utterly different in nature.

 

No, I think we can safely deduce that the Amayar are not Aiel.

 

 

Two of those have already died out (the Jenn and the Amayar) and the Tuatha'an seem to be going the same way. As a result the whole of the Aiel sand-ninja people that we have come to know and love could be considered a 'remnant of a remnant', even though the Waste is full to the brim with them.

 

The prophecy specifies that it refers to 'those that call themselves Aiel'. That's pretty clear. Whether or not those other people have Aiel blood in their veins, they do not call themselves Aiel.

 

I disagree with this as the Amiyar seem to also be formerly Aiel who were thrown into oceans and also followed the way of the leaf. A group is also hinted at in Seanchan in the person of the personal servant of the deathwatch guard who rescues Tuon. I don't remember whether they followed the way of the leaf. Only the Aiel use "Aiel" as part of their name so only they would be in the prophesy (as indeed the Amiyar had their own).

 

I've already commented on the Amayar, but Arijumba's tribe also bear no similarities to any aspect of Aiel culture--not even remotely. And they certainly do not follow the way of the leaf.