Semirhage the key to healing Rand?

[Luckers]

And then you would cry truly, bereft of her strength and wisdom in the upcoming storm.

[wvlr]

And then you would cry truly, bereft of her strength and wisdom in the upcoming storm.

 

 

The only (sad) crying that I would be doing is that she wasn’t balefired sooner.   

 

Her strength comes mostly from the “ang’eral/terang’eral” hair thingies that can be given to someone more deserving.    Say that Seanchan ex-damaine with him or one of his girls Avi/Elayne.

 

As far as her great wisdom is concerned – didn’t she say that she hunted Black Adaja and could not find ANY!        Shit, the WT is full of them and even with her “aids” she could not even find even ONE!    Perva went hunting and found some within just a few months.    Caddy had YEARS and found NOTHING!!      Sorry but that does not seem all that wise or competent to me.

 

OK, that is a biggie, but let’s just skip it and look at something else:

So in NS the WT has a Foretelling that the DR has been reborn.      So can you tell me how many men (that could well have been the DR) that she found and had gentled during that time.        Gee, to me that is really a stupid thing to do – what if you accidentally gentled the DR.      (Actually, for the same reason – it was pretty stupid thing to EVER gentle them – so she & the WT are minus points big time for all those they gentled before the foretelling as well.)       

 

OK let’s cut her a little more slack and assume that in her infinite (unseen) wisdom she would not have accidentally gentled the DR.      Now she knows that girls that can channel need someone to teach them, otherwise any number of catastrophes might happen to them.    She also knows that saidin and saidar are completely different and so girls can’t train boys.    So in all her undisplayed wisdom she miraculously knows that the DR is not going to need some or all of those men she gentled over the last 20+ years to teach him.      She somehow knew that Lanfear would help the DR enslave Asmo to do that task.      Gee, I never saw such a display of precognitive ability from her.    I guess I  must have missed it.

 

Oh well, she is the Great and All Powerful CADDY, so what does she do, in her great wisdom, when she comes to him to try to be his advisor?      She antagonizes the shit out of him and completely alienates him.      Oh well she, in her great wisdom, must have known that he had a thing about killing women so that she would be safe and she obviously knew that Min would have a “vision” that would tell the DR that he HAD to put up with her Pompas Ass AS butt!        Wait a minute – I don’t think she knew about Rand’s aversion to hurting women, or Min’s visions and I KNOW she did not know about THAT vision of Min’s.

 

So yet once again Caddy shows herself to be not so wise – just Damn lucky!   

 

[Hybrid]

The only (sad) crying that I would be doing is that she wasn’t balefired sooner.   

I sincerely hope you're joking. :o

 

Her strength comes mostly from the “ang’eral/terang’eral” hair thingies that can be given to someone more deserving.     Say that Seanchan ex-damaine with him or one of his girls Avi/Elayne.

Judging anyone by Power strength alone is foolish.  In any case, Luckers wasn't referring to Power strength, but to strength of will (I think).  Cadsuane is one of the only people who has the guts to stand up to Rand tell him he's making the wrong decision.  No matter how angry he gets.  Rand seriously needs someone like her, who will tell him the truth without going into the "As my Lord Dragon says" routine.

 

Also, I wouldn't call Elayne deserving... She's one of the most immature characters in the series, IMO.

 

As far as her great wisdom is concerned – didn’t she say that she hunted Black Adaja and could not find ANY!         Shit, the WT is full of them and even with her “aids” she could not even find even ONE!     Perva went hunting and found some within just a few months.    Caddy had YEARS and found NOTHING!!       Sorry but that does not seem all that wise or competent to me.

Well, Pevara had a slight advantage in that she stole an Oath Rod and forcibly bound sisters to tell the truth.  You know, the part where the Black Ajah hunters could be exiled or executed for doing.  You don't just walk around asking who Black Ajah are.  You have to look for suspicious behavior of some sort.  The fact that no such behavior was noted is a good indicator that the Black Ajah are very, very good at hiding.  Pevara only got lucky because Talene happened to be in the group that found her and Seaine.  Otherwise, no Black Ajah are found.

 

So in NS the WT has a Foretelling that the DR has been reborn.      So can you tell me how many men (that could well have been the DR) that she found and had gentled during that time.        Gee, to me that is really a stupid thing to do – what if you accidentally gentled the DR.       (Actually, for the same reason – it was pretty stupid thing to EVER gentle them – so she & the WT are minus points big time for all those they gentled before the foretelling as well.)       

I'm pretty sure Cadsuane didn't actually know about the Foretelling.  The only people who knew were Tamra, Moiraine, and Siuan...and the Black Ajah.  Plus, none of the candidates had fulfilled any of the Prophecies.  Such as the one about being born on the slopes of Dragonmount, which has to have been fulfilled before the DR starts channeling.  And Cadsuane didn't simply gentle them off the bat.  She followed the law.  Unlike the Red Ajah gentling spree.  They're the stupid ones.  Except, they didn't know about the Foretelling either.

 

   She also knows that saidin and saidar are completely different and so girls can’t train boys.     So in all her undisplayed wisdom she miraculously knows that the DR is not going to need some or all of those men she gentled over the last 20+ years to teach him.      She somehow knew that Lanfear would help the DR enslave Asmo to do that task.       Gee, I never saw such a display of precognitive ability from her.     I guess I  must have missed it.

Gee, great idea.  Having an insane teacher is the best way for the savior of the world to learn about a dangerous subject such as channeling.  I wonder why that wasn't thought of before?

 

Oh well, she is the Great and All Powerful CADDY, so what does she do, in her great wisdom, when she comes to him to try to be his advisor?       She antagonizes the shit out of him and completely alienates him.     

You know, it's painfully obvious that Cadsuane notices the character flaws in Rand.  That he isn't the Light made flesh, like Masema thinks.  That he needs someone to help him become strong but not hard.  She is trying to help him.  What Rand really needs is someone who will stand up to him in his temper tantrums and tell him that what he's doing is wrong (if it is).  That's not to say I'm approving of the Aes Sedai arrogance and their conviction that the Tower must control all events because the Tower knows best.  But I can't see how you hate Cadsuane for that.

 

  Oh well she, in her great wisdom, must have known that he had a thing about killing women so that she would be safe and she obviously knew that Min would have a “vision” that would tell the DR that he HAD to put up with her Pompas Ass AS butt!        Wait a minute – I don’t think she knew about Rand’s aversion to hurting women, or Min’s visions and I KNOW she did not know about THAT vision of Min’s.

 

Rand doesn't just execute anyone who disagrees with him over matters of policy.  Plus, she has the angreal and the terangreal you were ranting about, as well as some reasonably powerful and knowledgable sisters with her.  So she is content that if Rand lashes out at her, she will spank him and teach him a lesson about manners.

 

[Jambo]

Rand doesn't just execute anyone who disagrees with him over matters of policy.  Plus, she has the angreal and the terangreal you were ranting about, as well as some reasonably powerful and knowledgable sisters with her.  So she is content that if Rand lashes out at her, she will spank him and teach him a lesson about manners.

 

I doubt firstly that Rand would lash out at her with the power, but if he did I don't think her angreal ect. would help her. At this point in the story he is just way to powerful. At most I think he would be surprised at her strength, but that wouldn't stop him from tieing her up in knot. I think her real reason for not being afraid of Rand is that she has been around long enough to know how to deal with people like him and clearly she's very confident in her opinion of Rand's behaviour.

[wvlr]

Thanks for the reply Hybrid,

 

And although you are correct the I am being a little excessive about my condemnation of Caddy, I think that you skimmed over my points a little too much.

 

Yes Perva STOLE the OR when it was under Lock Down!   

 

All the years that Caddy was hunting the BA, the OR was available to anyone who wanted it for any reason - that is how the BA kept removing their oaths.

 

If Caddy is so damn intimidating to all the AS, I am sure that she could have found a way to use her near god-hood to pressure any particular AS to swear on it or keep her secluded until she either attacked Caddy - revieling her BA hood or said the oaths.    After all, what kind of excuse can a AS use to refuse to say the oaths?    Gee Caddy, I just don't want to.    Bullshit!    A normal AS would not refuse Caddy if Caddy insisted - unless she was Black.    As soon as she refused - Caddy would know that she was Black.    Once Caddy knows that she is Black - Caddy can do whatever she wants with her. 

 

 

Next is the issue of "well the DR had to be born on Dragonmount - well guess what.    Rand did not know that he was born there either until he overheard Tam's feaver dream.

 

What I am saying, is ANYTIME over the last 3000 years the DR could have been born on DM and been adopted just like Rand.    And just like Rand - if he did not know it, he could have been gentled.    The only thing that saved Rand was that Moriane was smarter than the average AS.

 

AS were just being stupid for 3000 years.    Sure it is understandable at first - with the Breaking and all.    But once the WT was established - at some point the WT AS should have realized that genteling every male was not only unnecessary (Steddings and Far Madding were available to hold channeling males) but that it was stupid because they could accidentally gentle the DR and doom the world.

[Majsju]

Rand doesn't just execute anyone who disagrees with him over matters of policy.  Plus, she has the angreal and the terangreal you were ranting about, as well as some reasonably powerful and knowledgable sisters with her.  So she is content that if Rand lashes out at her, she will spank him and teach him a lesson about manners.

 

I doubt firstly that Rand would lash out at her with the power, but if he did I don't think her angreal ect. would help her. At this point in the story he is just way to powerful. At most I think he would be surprised at her strength, but that wouldn't stop him from tieing her up in knot. I think her real reason for not being afraid of Rand is that she has been around long enough to know how to deal with people like him and clearly she's very confident in her opinion of Rand's behaviour.

 

Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that dissolves weaves, so it really does not matter how powerful Rand is. If he tries to use saidin on Cadsuane, he is up for a big surprise. And a thorough spanking afterwards ;D

[lordofsoup]

Rand should have just linked with every1 he had there and balefired her butt, that would make enough balefire to get his had back and all of the other people that she had just recently killed, but to convince her to heal Rand, they should adam her and take all her knowledge or have rand release her from the DO's link and convinve her.  That should be enough of a shock to make her give in, if not they could just start cutting her limbs off and so she has to find a way to heal lost limbs, to grow her own back.  Or they could ask Lews Therin

[Hybrid]

Yes Perva STOLE the OR when it was under Lock Down!   

 

All the years that Caddy was hunting the BA, the OR was available to anyone who wanted it for any reason - that is how the BA kept removing their oaths.

 

If Caddy is so damn intimidating to all the AS, I am sure that she could have found a way to use her near god-hood to pressure any particular AS to swear on it or keep her secluded until she either attacked Caddy - revieling her BA hood or said the oaths.    After all, what kind of excuse can a AS use to refuse to say the oaths?     Gee Caddy, I just don't want to.    Bullshit!    A normal AS would not refuse Caddy if Caddy insisted - unless she was Black.    As soon as she refused - Caddy would know that she was Black.    Once Caddy knows that she is Black - Caddy can do whatever she wants with her. 

 

Pevara and co.'s idea is the logical one.  So why hasn't it been thought of before?  Basically, the 3 Oaths take away part of one's free will.  In addition, it is painful and not a process any of the Aes Sedai enjoy.  In addition, the Oath Rod, as you said, is not a public item.  Otherwise, anyone could remove their oaths and reswear whatever oaths they wanted to.  It is likely that Cadsuane either did not think of this or did not want to implement it.  The fact that she did not likely means she has regard for the law, not that she is ineffective and weak.

 

As for finding no Black Ajah, do we have it straight from Cadsuane's thoughts that she found no Black Ajah?  I don't remember.  Otherwise, if she found any Black Ajah, she probably covered it up, just as Moiraine did with Merean in New Spring.  After all, the Tower is seen as the ruling body of the nations, the real power.  It would not do for it to fall into a McCarthyism type of hysteria.  The Aes Sedai already deny the very existence of the Black Ajah.  If such a witchhunt commenced, word would leak out (it always does), and the Tower's position would be compromised.

 

Next is the issue of "well the DR had to be born on Dragonmount - well guess what.    Rand did not know that he was born there either until he overheard Tam's feaver dream.

Yes. And no.  I doubt they would do something as simple as ask, were you born on Dragonmount?  A more thorough search would be more likely.  After all, the men could lie if they knew the reason for the question.  And they would be basing their information on their parents' word, like Rand did.  But we have no insight into the process, so we have no information.

 

What I am saying, is ANYTIME over the last 3000 years the DR could have been born on DM and been adopted just like Rand.    And just like Rand - if he did not know it, he could have been gentled.    The only thing that saved Rand was that Moriane was smarter than the average AS.

 

AS were just being stupid for 3000 years.    Sure it is understandable at first - with the Breaking and all.    But once the WT was established - at some point the WT AS should have realized that genteling every male was not only unnecessary (Steddings and Far Madding were available to hold channeling males) but that it was stupid because they could accidentally gentle the DR and doom the world.

The question is, do you devote resources to ensuring all these channeling males don't attempt to escape?  Remember, no channelers enjoy being without the source, and all the gentled males are sparkers who have begun channeling.  Gentling removes the problem of males escaping and running amok.  It cuts right to the source (no pun intended).

 

Also, what saved Rand was not Moiraine's level of intelligence.  It was the fact that Moiraine was one of two living sisters who knew of the Dragon Reborn's birth (not counting Black Ajah, of course) and that the Dark One had taken an interest in Rand.  Moiraine simply put 2 and 2 together to get 4.  I get the feeling that you were the one who skimmed over my points.

[Luckers]

Her strength comes mostly from the “ang’eral/terang’eral” hair thingies that can be given to someone more deserving.    Say that Seanchan ex-damaine with him or one of his girls Avi/Elayne.

 

She not once uses those ter'angreal in the books to get her own way. In fact, most people she deals with have no idea they are even ter'angreal, so she doesn't even use the threat of them to get her own way.

 

She uses her strength of will, and that strength is something Rand has and will need.

 

As far as her great wisdom is concerned – didn’t she say that she hunted Black Adaja and could not find ANY!        Shit, the WT is full of them and even with her “aids” she could not even find even ONE!    Perva went hunting and found some within just a few months.    Caddy had YEARS and found NOTHING!!      Sorry but that does not seem all that wise or competent to me.

 

In two thousand years not one has been found by any sister until the Black bestirred themselves. Pevara found Talene through pure chance--and through the fact that she had access to the Oath Rod, which Cadsuane did not.

 

OK, that is a biggie, but let’s just skip it and look at something else:

So in NS the WT has a Foretelling that the DR has been reborn.      So can you tell me how many men (that could well have been the DR) that she found and had gentled during that time.        Gee, to me that is really a stupid thing to do – what if you accidentally gentled the DR.      (Actually, for the same reason – it was pretty stupid thing to EVER gentle them – so she & the WT are minus points big time for all those they gentled before the foretelling as well.)

 

Cadsuane was not aware of Gitara's foretelling, and did not see that any men were gentled or even captured in that time until Logain and Taim, both of which were clearly not the Dragon by method of their histories--which she investigated.

 

OK let’s cut her a little more slack and assume that in her infinite (unseen) wisdom she would not have accidentally gentled the DR.      Now she knows that girls that can channel need someone to teach them, otherwise any number of catastrophes might happen to them.    She also knows that saidin and saidar are completely different and so girls can’t train boys.    So in all her undisplayed wisdom she miraculously knows that the DR is not going to need some or all of those men she gentled over the last 20+ years to teach him.      She somehow knew that Lanfear would help the DR enslave Asmo to do that task.      Gee, I never saw such a display of precognitive ability from her.    I guess I  must have missed it.

 

She did not know that Rand had been born, and even if she did, the two men who could channel she had access to in that time had both called themselves Dragons--leaving them, or even holding them to be teachers would have been inadvisable. They were too unpredictable, too likely to try and seize power themselves.

 

Oh well, she is the Great and All Powerful CADDY, so what does she do, in her great wisdom, when she comes to him to try to be his advisor?      She antagonizes the shit out of him and completely alienates him.      Oh well she, in her great wisdom, must have known that he had a thing about killing women so that she would be safe and she obviously knew that Min would have a “vision” that would tell the DR that he HAD to put up with her Pompas Ass AS butt!        Wait a minute – I don’t think she knew about Rand’s aversion to hurting women, or Min’s visions and I KNOW she did not know about THAT vision of Min’s.

 

She alone of every character in the series gets him to pause and listen. She alone of every character in the series pulls him up when he's acting like a fool or a tyrant and actually manages to stop him. She alone of any character in the series gets him to actually think before reaction.

 

Thats a pretty big deal.

 

As for Min's vision--i doubt Cadsuane would have needed it. She is not one to be disuaded, and she'd already managed to get under his skin. Indeed the reason she realises Min was involved was becuase he brought her in so easily--she knew and expected him to be antagonized, had planned for it, and had every intention of succeeding. Min merely made it easier--and a good thing she did, because Rand need Cadsuane--which, might i remind you, was exactly what Min's vision states.

 

In any case, Luckers wasn't referring to Power strength, but to strength of will (I think).

 

I was indeed saying just that.

 

Yes Perva STOLE the OR when it was under Lock Down! 

 

Actually Pevara, as a sitter, has perfect right to take the Oath Rod or any ter'angreal at any time she so chooses.

 

All the years that Caddy was hunting the BA, the OR was available to anyone who wanted it for any reason - that is how the BA kept removing their oaths.

 

Cadsuane, who wasn't ever a sitter, did not have access to the Oath Rod. The Black Ajah presumably have the sitters amongst their number take the Oath Rod when they need it.

 

Next is the issue of "well the DR had to be born on Dragonmount - well guess what.    Rand did not know that he was born there either until he overheard Tam's feaver dream.

 

Cadsuane investigate Logain's background, and presumably Taim's as well. Their places of birth rule them out.

 

What I am saying, is ANYTIME over the last 3000 years the DR could have been born on DM and been adopted just like Rand.    And just like Rand - if he did not know it, he could have been gentled.    The only thing that saved Rand was that Moriane was smarter than the average AS.

 

And the flow of the Patern. Moiraine was not smarter than the average Aes Sedai, she had a foretelling place extensive documentation of those born around Dragonmount. The Aes Sedai do worry about the possibility that they might have gentled the Dragon, but know that they must proceed anyway. Cadsuane at least investigated those she caught.

 

AS were just being stupid for 3000 years.    Sure it is understandable at first - with the Breaking and all.    But once the WT was established - at some point the WT AS should have realized that genteling every male was not only unnecessary (Steddings and Far Madding were available to hold channeling males) but that it was stupid because they could accidentally gentle the DR and doom the world.

 

To do that they would have to turn a stedding into a prison. They could never allow men to leave that stedding, and that would end the Dragon Reborn just as much as gentling him would.

 

Rand should have just linked with every1 he had there and balefired her butt, that would make enough balefire to get his had back and all of the other people that she had just recently killed, but to convince her to heal Rand, they should adam her and take all her knowledge or have rand release her from the DO's link and convinve her.  That should be enough of a shock to make her give in, if not they could just start cutting her limbs off and so she has to find a way to heal lost limbs, to grow her own back.  Or they could ask Lews Therin

 

To do so would have given up a vital source of knowledge, and Rand would not do that to recover his hand.

 

She could not regrow his hand by the way. Not even she has that skill.

 

 

As for finding no Black Ajah, do we have it straight from Cadsuane's thoughts that she found no Black Ajah?

 

She said she thought she had the Black under her thumb only to have them slip away. This was seventy years ago, and I'm guessing one of those moments where a Black Sister is killed by the Supreme Council in order to protect the secrecy of the Ajah.

 

 

[Jambo]

Rand doesn't just execute anyone who disagrees with him over matters of policy.  Plus, she has the angreal and the terangreal you were ranting about, as well as some reasonably powerful and knowledgable sisters with her.  So she is content that if Rand lashes out at her, she will spank him and teach him a lesson about manners.

 

I doubt firstly that Rand would lash out at her with the power, but if he did I don't think her angreal ect. would help her. At this point in the story he is just way to powerful. At most I think he would be surprised at her strength, but that wouldn't stop him from tieing her up in knot. I think her real reason for not being afraid of Rand is that she has been around long enough to know how to deal with people like him and clearly she's very confident in her opinion of Rand's behaviour.

 

Cadsuane has a ter'angreal that dissolves weaves, so it really does not matter how powerful Rand is. If he tries to use saidin on Cadsuane, he is up for a big surprise. And a thorough spanking afterwards ;D

 

Say WHAT?! Where did you find that out? And where do you think she'd get something like that?

[Sabio]

It was her ter'angreal that dissolves weaves that made Semirhage disguise vanish as they got closer.  But as we have seen with Mat's doesn't make you immune from things being tossed at you with the power etc... 

[Jambo]

It was her ter'angreal that dissolves weaves that made Semirhage disguise vanish as they got closer.  But as we have seen with Mat's doesn't make you immune from things being tossed at you with the power etc... 

 

But that would have been Saidar the ter'angreal was dissipating, does it work with Saidin too?

[Ireond]

If there's one that can cover a whole city from both, there can be one that covers a person

[wvlr]

Her strength comes mostly from the “ang’eral/terang’eral” hair thingies that can be given to someone more deserving.     Say that Seanchan ex-damaine with him or one of his girls Avi/Elayne.

 

She not once uses those ter'angreal in the books to get her own way. In fact, most people she deals with have no idea they are even ter'angreal, so she doesn't even use the threat of them to get her own way.

 

She uses her strength of will, and that strength is something Rand has and will need.

 

Sorry Luckers, but we have insufficient data to say that she never did this and regardless it does not matter, because it that is like saying that Arnald Swartsniger did not use Steroids and other drugs to win the California Governership.      Those drugs got him his body and his acting career  -  His REPUTATION and public “Face Time” so to speak, all of which he leveraged into the Governorship.

 

The same goes for Caddy – She has used those “Thingies” to help her track down male channelers and bring them to the WT – At lease once Alone.     These actions and the Ang’eral that she constantly wears (just like Grendal at the meeting) significantly effect her Asedi reputation and standing.      And she Flaunts that Reputation – remember that first meeting?     She says something like “I have found and captured more male channelers than ANY three Reds combined!”

 

Just like Arnald she might not be currently actively using her “Boosters” but she still retains the enhanced body/reputation that she most likely would never have gotten without them.      And by that very statement of hers above – she is very much actively  “Flaunting it”.

 

As far as “Strength of Will” is concerned, I do not see hers to be significantly better than quite a few other characters.    Verin’s strength of will seems to be quite significant to me, but she does not use the crutch of abuse and outright antagonism that Caddy seems to have to rely on.      That said, I have never seen Rand to refuse to listen to Verin’s good advise.      The same went for Moraine.

 

 

 

 

As far as her great wisdom is concerned – didn’t she say that she hunted Black Adaja and could not find ANY!         Shit, the WT is full of them and even with her “aids” she could not even find even ONE!     Perva went hunting and found some within just a few months.    Caddy had YEARS and found NOTHING!!       Sorry but that does not seem all that wise or competent to me.

 

In two thousand years not one has been found by any sister until the Black bestirred themselves. Pevara found Talene through pure chance--and through the fact that she had access to the Oath Rod, which Cadsuane did not.

 

No that is not true.      Prior to the 13 BA stealing the things from the WT, the OR was available to any AS that wanted to use it.       That is how the BA got it to remove the WT Oaths and take the BA Oaths.       So Pevera managed to get the OR despite restrictions that Caddy would never have had to deal with.          I seem to remember you acknowloging this in a different thread – am I wrong about that?

 

 

 

OK, that is a biggie, but let’s just skip it and look at something else:

So in NS the WT has a Foretelling that the DR has been reborn.      So can you tell me how many men (that could well have been the DR) that she found and had gentled during that time.        Gee, to me that is really a stupid thing to do – what if you accidentally gentled the DR.       (Actually, for the same reason – it was pretty stupid thing to EVER gentle them – so she & the WT are minus points big time for all those they gentled before the foretelling as well.)

 

Cadsuane was not aware of Gitara's foretelling, and did not see that any men were gentled or even captured in that time until Logain and Taim, both of which were clearly not the Dragon by method of their histories--which she investigated.

 

What evidence to you have to support this?      We have seen/heard of VERY little about Logain’s & Taim’s family history and none of it precludes the possibility that either or both of them could have been adopted at a very young age (baby) and raised as family.

 

Face it, this is staged in a very brutal world and even in the modern real world children are frequently orphaned and adopted.      Throughout history, if the adoption is done early enough, the child is often raised as “True blood family” without ever being informed of their adopted status.

 

 

 

 

Cadsuane investigate Logain's background, and presumably Taim's as well. Their places of birth rule them out.

 

Show me the Quote that backs this up AND as I stated above:  We have seen/heard of VERY little about Logain’s & Taim’s family history and none of it precludes the possibility that either or both of them could have been adopted at a very young age (baby) and raised as family.

 

Face it, this is staged in a very brutal world and even in the modern real world children are frequently orphaned and adopted.      Throughout history, if the adoption is done early enough, the child is often raised as “True blood family” without ever being informed of their adopted status.

 

 

 

 

 

OK let’s cut her a little more slack and assume that in her infinite (unseen) wisdom she would not have accidentally gentled the DR.       Now she knows that girls that can channel need someone to teach them, otherwise any number of catastrophes might happen to them.     She also knows that saidin and saidar are completely different and so girls can’t train boys.     So in all her undisplayed wisdom she miraculously knows that the DR is not going to need some or all of those men she gentled over the last 20+ years to teach him.      She somehow knew that Lanfear would help the DR enslave Asmo to do that task.       Gee, I never saw such a display of precognitive ability from her.     I guess I  must have missed it.

 

She did not know that Rand had been born, and even if she did, the two men who could channel she had access to in that time had both called themselves Dragons--leaving them, or even holding them to be teachers would have been inadvisable. They were too unpredictable, too likely to try and seize power themselves.  

 

Again, What I am saying is that it does not matter that Caddy did not know of the Foretelling.   What if there had never been a Foretelling.    What if the DR was one of those men that Caddy captured years before the Foertelling?     What I am saying, is ANYTIME over the last 3000 years the DR could have been born on DM and been adopted just like Rand.    And just like Rand - if he did not know it, he could have been gentled.

 

 

 

 

She alone of every character in the series gets him to pause and listen. She alone of every character in the series pulls him up when he's acting like a fool or a tyrant and actually manages to stop him. She alone of any character in the series gets him to actually think before reaction.

 

 

Do you have any quotes where Rand refused to listen to Verin’s advice?     Min’s advice?     Caddy’s advice when she was not being as ASS?      The Aril’s advice?       I don’t mean where he listened to them & decided different, but where he completely refused to listen!

 

Maybe I have amnesia, but I just can’t think of one.       I am sure that there must be a case where it happened, so please enlighten me!     Please!!

 

PS.    This is not saying that Rand is not an ASS in his own right – because he IS!!!       A Royal ASS actually!     But he usually listens to advise as far as I can remember – NO MATTER where that advice comes from.      That’s pretty good for a crazy guy!

 

To me his problem is not that he will not listen, but that he has Temper FITS.      Well Duh!!!      The guy is going crazy, has constant pain from his wounds, arms, hand(s), and has a nut case talking in his head.      75% of the people that I know, if they bump their head/finger/knee/elbow/etc. they fly off the handle for a few moments to several minutes.    I hardly think that compares to what Rand has to put up with, so cut him a little slack.

 

[Hybrid]

The same goes for Caddy – She has used those “Thingies” to help her track down male channelers and bring them to the WT – At lease once Alone.

So what?  I don't see a problem with using the tools you have to carry out the job at hand.

 

       And she Flaunts that Reputation – remember that first meeting?     She says something like “I have found and captured more male channelers than ANY three Reds combined!”

I'm pretty sure that was another character's thought, not Cadsuane's.  Cadsuane does not go around bragging about her exploits.

 

As far as “Strength of Will” is concerned, I do not see hers to be significantly better than quite a few other characters.    Verin’s strength of will seems to be quite significant to me, but she does not use the crutch of abuse and outright antagonism that Caddy seems to have to rely on.      That said, I have never seen Rand to refuse to listen to Verin’s good advise.

And yet, very few characters have been able to stand up to Rand the way Cadsuane does.  We've had Verin's POV.  She is terrified of Rand's strength.  Cadsuane is not.  She is the only one to actively stand up to him and not let him run roughshod over her.  Period.

 

     The same went for Moraine.

Have you read TDR?  The entire book was Rand ignoring Moiraine's advice.

 

No that is not true.      Prior to the 13 BA stealing the things from the WT, the OR was available to any AS that wanted to use it.       That is how the BA got it to remove the WT Oaths and take the BA Oaths.       So Pevera managed to get the OR despite restrictions that Caddy would never have had to deal with.          I seem to remember you acknowloging this in a different thread – am I wrong about that?

Wrong.  The fact that the Black Ajah were able to remove the Oaths does not prove that the Oath Rod was accessible.  The fact that many Aes Sedai did not even believe in the presence of the Black Ajah suggests this.  Also, there is a difference between being accessible and publically accessible.  Remember, when Seaine and Pevara did their thing, they tried to hide the Oath Rod from Yukiri and the other sitters.

 

 

What evidence to you have to support this?      We have seen/heard of VERY little about Logain’s & Taim’s family history and none of it precludes the possibility that either or both of them could have been adopted at a very young age (baby) and raised as family.

Logain is a lord in Ghealdan.  Lords in the wetlands come by their titles through birth, something which Rand, being a commoner, does not approve of.  We have no evidence of Taim's history.  But, we have no evidence that there is no evidence of Taim's history.  Regardless, searching through a man's history is not so simple as asking the family.

 

Again, What I am saying is that it does not matter that Caddy did not know of the Foretelling.   What if there had never been a Foretelling.    What if the DR was one of those men that Caddy captured years before the Foertelling?     What I am saying, is ANYTIME over the last 3000 years the DR could have been born on DM and been adopted just like Rand.    And just like Rand - if he did not know it, he could have been gentled.

Then the problem is not with Cadsuane but with White Tower policy.  Regardless, the policy is not a particularly bad one.  Indeed, it saves most men an unpleasant end.  And it is far better than your idea of using the stedding as shelters.  Why would the Ogier even agree to do so?  Why would Far Madding agree to do so?  Every where, people are scared out of their wits of men who can channel, regardless of whether they are doing so or not.

 

Do you have any quotes where Rand refused to listen to Verin’s advice?     Min’s advice?     Caddy’s advice when she was not being as ASS?      The Aril’s advice?       I don’t mean where he listened to them & decided different, but where he completely refused to listen!

When did Verin ever advise Rand?  When did Min?  None of them, not even the Aiel, stand up to Rand.  Period.  Cadsuane is unique in this respect.

 

 

 

PS.    This is not saying that Rand is not an ASS in his own right – because he IS!!!       A Royal ASS actually!     But he usually listens to advise as far as I can remember – NO MATTER where that advice comes from.      That’s pretty good for a crazy guy!

Rand has notorious temper tantrums.  He has bodily thrown people out of his chambers during arguments.  Remember that Tairen lord?  He is not willing to listen to disagreement when he believes he is right, and no one bothers to stand up to him in that aspect.

 

To me his problem is not that he will not listen, but that he has Temper FITS.      Well Duh!!!      The guy is going crazy, has constant pain from his wounds, arms, hand(s), and has a nut case talking in his head.      75% of the people that I know, if they bump their head/finger/knee/elbow/etc. they fly off the handle for a few moments to several minutes.    I hardly think that compares to what Rand has to put up with, so cut him a little slack.

I have temper fits too.  But my decisions don't affect the entire world.  Rand has temper fits while making decisions that affect countless numbers of lives.  This is something he cannot afford to do.

[Sabio]

Wrong.  The fact that the Black Ajah were able to remove the Oaths does not prove that the Oath Rod was accessible.  The fact that many Aes Sedai did not even believe in the presence of the Black Ajah suggests this.  Also, there is a difference between being accessible and publically accessible.  Remember, when Seaine and Pevara did their thing, they tried to hide the Oath Rod from Yukiri and the other sitters

 

Well since we know there is more then one oath rod, most likely the BA has their own somewhere.

[Luckers]

Sorry Luckers, but we have insufficient data to say that she never did this

 

Ahem. Let me requote my comment for you. "She not once uses those ter'angreal in the books to get her own way."

 

And yes, we do have sufficient data to say that. We were there.

 

regardless it does not matter, because it that is like saying that Arnald Swartsniger did not use Steroids and other drugs to win the California Governership.      Those drugs got him his body and his acting career  -  His REPUTATION and public “Face Time” so to speak, all of which he leveraged into the Governorship.

 

Let me quote the rest of my comment to you. "In fact, most people she deals with have no idea they are even ter'angreal, so she doesn't even use the threat of them to get her own way."

 

Of the people she interacts with only the Aes Sedai are familiar with her reputation. She still gets her way. Point and case, Harine, who was neither aware of her reputation or impressed with her as a person.

 

The same goes for Caddy – She has used those “Thingies” to help her track down male channelers and bring them to the WT – At lease once Alone.    These actions and the Ang’eral that she constantly wears (just like Grendal at the meeting) significantly effect her Asedi reputation and standing.      And she Flaunts that Reputation – remember that first meeting?    She says something like “I have found and captured more male channelers than ANY three Reds combined!”

 

Any ten, and why shouldn't she be clear about that? She was dealing with a man who can channel, he was bound to find out sooner or later. And in truth it is noteworthy--she's an effective person, he needed to know that.

 

As far as “Strength of Will” is concerned, I do not see hers to be significantly better than quite a few other characters.    Verin’s strength of will seems to be quite significant to me, but she does not use the crutch of abuse and outright antagonism that Caddy seems to have to rely on.      That said, I have never seen Rand to refuse to listen to Verin’s good advise.      The same went for Moraine.

 

Verin's a dangerous lady--though she never actual confronts anyone, i reguard her to be about the most dangerous character in the series. Cadsuane herself notes that she is left uncertain about Verin, and reguards her warily. Moiraine too is strong and dangerous. But Rand dismisses both. Neither could have done what Cadsuane is doing, and that those are both strong willed women does not make Cadsuane less so--indeed i would still place her as stronger willed than either Verin or Moiraine. In a direct confrontation with either Cadsuane would win. Verin would never let such a confrontation happen, and Moiraine... well, it did happen in NS, and Moiraine was forced to flee under cover of dark.

 

No that is not true.      Prior to the 13 BA stealing the things from the WT, the OR was available to any AS that wanted to use it.      That is how the BA got it to remove the WT Oaths and take the BA Oaths.      So Pevera managed to get the OR despite restrictions that Caddy would never have had to deal with.          I seem to remember you acknowloging this in a different thread – am I wrong about that?

 

Sorry, you are wrong. The Oath Rod and all ter'angreal were restricted, requiring direct permission to access. Only the sitters had access beyond that. The Black Ajah gained access through  Black itters.

 

What evidence to you have to support this?      We have seen/heard of VERY little about Logain’s & Taim’s family history and none of it precludes the possibility that either or both of them could have been adopted at a very young age (baby) and raised as family.

 

Cadsuane displays direct knowledge of Logain's familial history. If she did that for him, i don't see why she wouldn't do it for Taim. They are the only two men who can channel that she dealt with since Rand's birth... which is all irrelevant since she didn't know that Rand had been born.

 

Face it, this is staged in a very brutal world and even in the modern real world children are frequently orphaned and adopted.      Throughout history, if the adoption is done early enough, the child is often raised as “True blood family” without ever being informed of their adopted status.

 

Actually, bloodlines in an aristocracy are much more closely followed than in modern times. Dramatically so.

 

Show me the Quote that backs this up AND as I stated above:  We have seen/heard of VERY little about Logain’s & Taim’s family history and none of it precludes the possibility that either or both of them could have been adopted at a very young age (baby) and raised as family.

 

KoD. The scene before the Trolloc attack, Cadsuane displays direct knowledge of Logain's familial history.

 

Noble families do not adopt, incidently. It taints the bloodline, and their claim to authority is that bloodline.

 

Again, What I am saying is that it does not matter that Caddy did not know of the Foretelling.  What if there had never been a Foretelling.    What if the DR was one of those men that Caddy captured years before the Foertelling?    What I am saying, is ANYTIME over the last 3000 years the DR could have been born on DM and been adopted just like Rand.    And just like Rand - if he did not know it, he could have been gentled.

 

I'm sorry, but i find that a pointless argument. It casts not dark aspirations on Cadsuane, nor implies stupidity--the male channelers had to be dealt with, end of game. There are signs that decry the Dragon, that's what the prophecies are for--and the Aes Sedai are conscientious of the idea of accidently gentling the Dragon--Siuan comments on it several times.

 

Endgame, they're wary for the possibility of the Dragon--which we know Cadsuane was, she states that she had seen signs that suggested the Dragon might have been born.

 

Beyond that, given that Cadsuane never captured or gentled Rand, I'd say we have to trust that she was wily enough not to be stupid about how she saw gentled, as indeed we know she was being given her investigation of Logain's familial history.

 

Do you have any quotes where Rand refused to listen to Verin’s advice?    Min’s advice?    Caddy’s advice when she was not being as ASS?      The Aril’s advice?      I don’t mean where he listened to them & decided different, but where he completely refused to listen!

 

It's endemic through entire second half of the series. He doesn't tell them to shut up, but he doesn't listen, doesn't act on what they say, doesn't even truly hear them. It's his entire character arc. The only person able to actually say something and have him pause once he's moved forward is Cadsuane. I think the perfect expression of this is when he is railing against Alanna for the treaty with the Tairen Rebels in KoD. That is literally the first time he's pulled back from raging and reconsidered his position.

 

To me his problem is not that he will not listen, but that he has Temper FITS.      Well Duh!!!      The guy is going crazy, has constant pain from his wounds, arms, hand(s), and has a nut case talking in his head.      75% of the people that I know, if they bump their head/finger/knee/elbow/etc. they fly off the handle for a few moments to several minutes.    I hardly think that compares to what Rand has to put up with, so cut him a little slack.

 

He doesn't listen, not truly. Oh he will take on information, but advice on proceeding goes completely ignored in favour of what he's already decided. Beyond that you are right, he does have temper tantrums--that is precisely what Cadsuane is addressing. She's teaching him to control himself, and he needs to learn that, for whilst tantrums are normal in people, in the guy responsible for saving the universe they are completely unacceptable. End of story.

 

Well since we know there is more then one oath rod, most likely the BA has their own somewhere.

 

They do not. They utilize the same Oath Rod used in the swearing of the Oaths, which we know as a fact from Galina's POV.

[Sabio]

They do not. They utilize the same Oath Rod used in the swearing of the Oaths, which we know as a fact from Galina's POV.

 

Ummm guess don't remember that POV.  Seems bit werid the oath rod can be smuggled all over the tower and no one misses it.  Gotta love that Aes Sedai security.

[Hybrid]

Well, it's only used in the raising of Aes Sedai.  Plus, Aes Sedai can't possibly be Darkfriends, and the Wrath of the Tower falls on those who suggest such a thing.

[Mr Ares]

Ummm guess don't remember that POV.

Galina wasn't sure that an Oath could be removed by an OR other than the one which gave the Oath in the first place. So she goes out of her way to get her hands on Therava's Rod, rather than just using the Tower's. So her Oaths must have been removed using the WT's OR.

 

But that would have been Saidar the ter'angreal was dissipating, does it work with Saidin too?

Mat's works on both, why shouldn't Caddy's?

 

And where do you think she'd get something like that?

Same place she got the rest of the set. A Wilder in the Black Hills.

[Jambo]

But that would have been Saidar the ter'angreal was dissipating, does it work with Saidin too?

Mat's works on both, why shouldn't Caddy's?

 

And where do you think she'd get something like that?

Same place she got the rest of the set. A Wilder in the Black Hills.

 

When do we find out that Mat's works on both Saidar and Saidin? Maybe I'm just missing something but I definately do not remember it working on Saidin...

[Swigaro]

In Salidar, Aran'gar channels at Matt.  He feels the medalion go cold, then turns to see Halima (Aran'gar in disguise) glareing at him. 

[wvlr]

The same goes for Caddy – She has used those “Thingies” to help her track down male channelers and bring them to the WT – At lease once Alone.

So what?  I don't see a problem with using the tools you have to carry out the job at hand.

 

And I agree with you.    Unfortuantely, you took my statements completely out of context.      --      I was responding to Luckers claim that:  “She not once uses those ter'angreal in the books to get her own way.”

 

I say that:

1.  That is ridiculous because she has already developed her REPUTATION based on her use of them.    Regardless as to whether someone knew that she had used those tools to help her earn that REPUTATION.      All AS now treat her differently because of her past accomplishments.      Accomplishments that were earned via those “Thingies”.        Since AS visably treat her differently, this is obviously seen by NON  AS who already regard most AS very highly, resulting in even higher respect given to Caddy from non-AS.  The “Gee AS are scared of her – I better jump twice as high for her as I go for regular AS.”

 

2.    We do not have a constant POV from Caddy throughout the books so we can not be sure what “Thingies” she might be using at any given time.    We do know that she has “Thingies” that tell her if a male channeler is near and if he is holding Saidin.    Because we see this at least once (CoT  US  HB  Pg 540).

 

So yes she is actively using her “Thingies” in her dealings with one person that we know of  - Rand and she can’t help but use the Reputation that she earned in part from her historical use of the Thingies.      Does she walk around telling people that she is going to hit them on the head with her Thingies if they do not do what she wants – NO – that is effectively handled by her REPUTATION.      People are awed by her reputation.

 

      The same went for Moraine.

Have you read TDR?  The entire book was Rand ignoring Moiraine's advice.   

 

Depending on the part of TDR you are referring to the answers to that vary – because for a while there he WAS acting quite strange.     

Beyond that YES Moiraine frequently gave him good advice in TDR and was more than a little irritated when he did not jump to do everything she suggested.      But he rarely if ever refused to listen to the advice.    In the end, her advice was not as good as the solutions that he came up with. 

 

 

Again, What I am saying is that it does not matter that Caddy did not know of the Foretelling.  What if there had never been a Foretelling.    What if the DR was one of those men that Caddy captured years before the Foertelling?    What I am saying, is ANYTIME over the last 3000 years the DR could have been born on DM and been adopted just like Rand.    And just like Rand - if he did not know it, he could have been gentled.

Then the problem is not with Cadsuane but with White Tower policy.  Regardless, the policy is not a particularly bad one.  Indeed, it saves most men an unpleasant end.  And it is far better than your idea of using the stedding as shelters.  Why would the Ogier even agree to do so?  Why would Far Madding agree to do so?  Every where, people are scared out of their wits of men who can channel, regardless of whether they are doing so or not.

 

“the policy is not a particularly bad one”??????    If they had inadvertently gentled the DR and the whole world was lost to the DO –  I WOULD CONSIDER THIS TO BE BAD!!!      I think that every non-Darkfriend would agree that it would be bad!

That was the context of the statement.    Why would Ogier or Far Maddingites refuse something that would save the world over the stupidity that was being committed?     

 

Ref WH  US PB Pg 730.    Aleis (of the FM Counsel) “We have no fear of Asha’man, Cadsuane”    Until this incident – they had no care if a male OR female channeler was in FM, because they knew that said channeler could not channel within the city limits.    FM also has a very tight security system set up so that not even a SWORD can enter or leave without their permission.      Surely that could easily be adapted to include a branded male channeler.      As far as Ogier are concerned, they have ALREADY shown their willingness to do what was necessary to save the world.

 

 

 

Any ten.

 

OPPS!    Thanks for correcting me – so it is even worse than I remembered!

 

 

As far as “Strength of Will” is concerned, I do not see hers to be significantly better than quite a few other characters.    Verin’s strength of will seems to be quite significant to me, but she does not use the crutch of abuse and outright antagonism that Caddy seems to have to rely on.      That said, I have never seen Rand to refuse to listen to Verin’s good advise.      The same went for Moraine.

 

Verin's a dangerous lady--though she never actual confronts anyone, i reguard her to be about the most dangerous character in the series. Cadsuane herself notes that she is left uncertain about Verin, and reguards her warily. Moiraine too is strong and dangerous. But Rand dismisses both. Neither could have done what Cadsuane is doing, and that those are both strong willed women does not make Cadsuane less so--indeed i would still place her as stronger willed than either Verin or Moiraine. In a direct confrontation with either Cadsuane would win. Verin would never let such a confrontation happen, and Moiraine... well, it did happen in NS, and Moiraine was forced to flee under cover of dark.

 

“Verin's a dangerous lady--though she never actual confronts anyone, i reguard her to be about the most dangerous character in the series.”

 

Well it’s nice to agree with you about at least one little tidbit lately!!

 

“Moiraine was forced to flee under cover of dark.”

 

Come on!      Moraine was only just raised and was caught up in other very urgent and important business that could not be delayed at the time.      It really demeans your argument to even mention it.       

 

“In a direct confrontation with either Cadsuane would win.”    No in a direct confrontation with Verin, Caddy would be DEAD!!    She came DAMN close already and you know it!

 

 

 

Sorry, you are wrong. The Oath Rod and all ter'angreal were restricted, requiring direct permission to access. Only the sitters had access beyond that. The Black Ajah gained access through Black Sitters.

 

I am sorry but I can’t take this as gospel, if you do – that is OK to me - but to me the AS really seemed to be terribly sloppy about those things – look at all the runaways and AS rejects that left the Tower with that stuff.    Look at Caddy she has had her stuff near forever and we know from Moraine that their possession of such stuff is supposed to be limited.    But you are probably correct that that was the way that it was supposed to work.     

 

 

Actually, bloodlines in an aristocracy are much more closely followed than in modern times. Dramatically so. 

 

Well that is what they would like you to believe but if you believe it then how about if I sell you some prime beach front property in Arizona.      I can guarantee you that it will be a steal!

 

The fact is that you have no proof of this and especially for minor lords which is what we are talking about.    If anything, this desire to give the “appearance” of no break in family line would ensure greater secrecy in any such adoptions that were needed due to infertility or deaths of the true line.      That level of secrecy would preclude AS from ever being completely sure even for minor lords.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but i find that a pointless argument. It casts not dark aspirations on Cadsuane, nor implies stupidity--the male channelers had to be dealt with, end of game. There are signs that decry the Dragon, that's what the prophecies are for--and the Aes Sedai are conscientious of the idea of accidently gentling the Dragon--Siuan comments on it several times.   

 

What?      Who was trying to cast dark aspirations on Caddy?

 

And I could well be wrong but I thought that in EoTW, Moraine and Siuan commented that they had to be careful because Rand could quite easily get accidentally gentled before he was declared

 

 

[Majsju]

“In a direct confrontation with either Cadsuane would win.”    No in a direct confrontation with Verin, Caddy would be DEAD!!    She came DAMN close already and you know it!

 

Poisoning someones tea behind their back does not exactly qualify as "direct confrontation" in my book.

 

Look at Caddy she has had her stuff near forever and we know from Moraine that their possession of such stuff is supposed to be limited.    But you are probably correct that that was the way that it was supposed to work.     

 

Cadsuanes thingys did not come from the WT, and hiding them from other Aes Sedai until Cadsuanes reputation was strong enough for her to do pretty much whatever she wanted would not be a very hard thing to do.

 

 

[Ndshacker]

I agree so long as the aes sedai dont touch it, they dont know its anything special.