Semirhage the key to healing Rand?

[wvlr]

Poisoning someones tea behind their back does not exactly qualify as "direct confrontation" in my book.

 

It is direct enough in MY book and I would think that it would be direct enough for the DEAD person as well.     Dead is DEAD!!!

 

 

I think that it says clearly that all "objects of power" are the White Towers, Caddy is AS so it is her responsibility to enforce this.

[Hybrid]

And I agree with you.     Unfortuantely, you took my statements completely out of context.      --      I was responding to Luckers claim that:  “She not once uses those ter'angreal in the books to get her own way.”

 

I say that:

1.   That is ridiculous because she has already developed her REPUTATION based on her use of them.     Regardless as to whether someone knew that she had used those tools to help her earn that REPUTATION.      All AS now treat her differently because of her past accomplishments.      Accomplishments that were earned via those “Thingies”.        Since AS visably treat her differently, this is obviously seen by NON  AS who already regard most AS very highly, resulting in even higher respect given to Caddy from non-AS.   The “Gee AS are scared of her – I better jump twice as high for her as I go for regular AS.”

 

2.    We do not have a constant POV from Caddy throughout the books so we can not be sure what “Thingies” she might be using at any given time.     We do know that she has “Thingies” that tell her if a male channeler is near and if he is holding Saidin.    Because we see this at least once (CoT  US  HB  Pg 540).

 

So yes she is actively using her “Thingies” in her dealings with one person that we know of  - Rand and she can’t help but use the Reputation that she earned in part from her historical use of the Thingies.      Does she walk around telling people that she is going to hit them on the head with her Thingies if they do not do what she wants – NO – that is effectively handled by her REPUTATION.      People are awed by her reputation.

I honestly don't see what your problem with Cadsuane is.  She earned her reputation.  She didn't sit around and take the credit for others' actions.  She went out and fought to protect the world.  Her reputation is not all it is cooked up to be in any case.  When she first appeared, Merana ran shrieking to her that she mustn't hurt Rand.  Also, she is perhaps the oldest Aes Sedai around.  In any culture, age is mostly equated with wisdom and respect, because age means more experience.  Hence, respect your elders...they know what they're talking about.

 

Also, Cadsuane's reputation hardly carries any weight with Rand.  He views himself as the Dragon Reborn, and everyone in the world better damn well know it, because he's right and they're wrong.  Aes Sedai, Asha'man, nobles, Aiel, it doesn't matter, no one knows better than he does when it comes to disagreement, in his opinion.  Cadsuane is the only character who has actually stood up to Rand when he lost his temper and influenced him.  This is not because of her reputation.  This is because of her strength of will.

 

Depending on the part of TDR you are referring to the answers to that vary – because for a while there he WAS acting quite strange.       

Beyond that YES Moiraine frequently gave him good advice in TDR and was more than a little irritated when he did not jump to do everything she suggested.      But he rarely if ever refused to listen to the advice.     In the end, her advice was not as good as the solutions that he came up with. 

Exactly.  Rand listened to her advice... and then refused to comply with what she advised him to do.  Her advice was hardly bad.  If not for Moiraine's surprise intervention and the Aiel's surprise attack, Be'lal's plan probably would have succeeded.  Rand simply does not want to listen to her or anyone else, period.  Cadsuane, on the other hand, has actually been able to change Rand's actions with her advice.

 

“the policy is not a particularly bad one”??????    If they had inadvertently gentled the DR and the whole world was lost to the DO –  I WOULD CONSIDER THIS TO BE BAD!!!      I think that every non-Darkfriend would agree that it would be bad!

That was the context of the statement.     Why would Ogier or Far Maddingites refuse something that would save the world over the stupidity that was being committed?

 

Ref WH  US PB Pg 730.    Aleis (of the FM Counsel) “We have no fear of Asha’man, Cadsuane”    Until this incident – they had no care if a male OR female channeler was in FM, because they knew that said channeler could not channel within the city limits.     FM also has a very tight security system set up so that not even a SWORD can enter or leave without their permission.      Surely that could easily be adapted to include a branded male channeler.      As far as Ogier are concerned, they have ALREADY shown their willingness to do what was necessary to save the world.

If they had not gentled the men going crazy, there wouldn't be a world left to save.  Also, the Ogier have already shown themselves as reluctant to become involved in human affairs.  Look at the current situation, they're considering leaving the world entirely!  In addition, many of them refused to listen to Loial and Karldin over the Waygates.  As for Far Madding, don't you think they would consider it rather demeaning to become jail wardens for the Aes Sedai?  Not to mention, it would put rather a damper on living there?  Also, you have to remember that channelers live longer than normal people as well as the fact that no channeler appreciates being without the power.  There would have to be massive security to prevent these people from escaping.  Gentling cuts off the problem at the roots.

As for gentling the Dragon Reborn, nothing in the prophecies says that he has to channel at the Dark One to win the Last Battle.  All it says is his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul saves the world.  Regardless, you are taking my statements out of context.  This policy is not the fault of Cadsuane.  It is the fault of the original Aes Sedai, if there is fault to be had.  However, the Aes Sedai do not go out and gentle the man on the spot.  Why do you suppose the Tower law exists?  What other point is there, if it is not to ensure that the Dragon Reborn is not accidentally gentled before TG?

 

 

As far as “Strength of Will” is concerned, I do not see hers to be significantly better than quite a few other characters.    Verin’s strength of will seems to be quite significant to me, but she does not use the crutch of abuse and outright antagonism that Caddy seems to have to rely on.      That said, I have never seen Rand to refuse to listen to Verin’s good advise.      The same went for Moraine.

He hears their advice.  That is, he stands there while they tell him.  But in the end, he decides to do whatever he wants, and all they can say is "As my Lord Dragon wishes."  I don't see that as listening to their advice.  There is a difference between hearing and listening.  To Rand. their words may as well be the wind, because there is just as little meaning for him.

 

 

“Moiraine was forced to flee under cover of dark.”

 

Come on!      Moraine was only just raised and was caught up in other very urgent and important business that could not be delayed at the time.      It really demeans your argument to even mention it.

Moiraine tried to stand up to Cadsuane, and Cadsuane gave her the a verbal spanking.  Moiraine's will was just as strong as ever--look how she dealt with Lan--but Cadsuane's was better.    

 

 

“In a direct confrontation with either Cadsuane would win.”     No in a direct confrontation with Verin, Caddy would be DEAD!!     She came DAMN close already and you know it!

Direct implies knowledge for both parties that a confrontation is taking place.  Verin would have poisoned Cadsuane behind her back.  That hardly qualifies as direct.  Would it be direct if I walked up behind you, greeted you as a friend, and then stabbed you in the back?  No.

 

Both of these are pointless arguments.  The only characters in the series with a will near as strong as Cadsuane's are Rand and Sorelia.  Moiraine could not even stand up to Rand the way Cadsuane could.  Verin, while a dangerous and underestimated character, has not attempted to stand up to Rand.  Neither would stand a chance in a battle of wills with Cadsuane.

 

 

I am sorry but I can’t take this as gospel, if you do – that is OK to me - but to me the AS really seemed to be terribly sloppy about those things – look at all the runaways and AS rejects that left the Tower with that stuff.     Look at Caddy she has had her stuff near forever and we know from Moraine that their possession of such stuff is supposed to be limited.    But you are probably correct that that was the way that it was supposed to work.

Again, this is an argument against Aes Sedai policy, not against Cadsuane herself.  We do not even have knowledge that Cadsuane knew the location of the Oath Rod! 

 

 

Well that is what they would like you to believe but if you believe it then how about if I sell you some prime beach front property in Arizona.      I can guarantee you that it will be a steal!

I fail to see the point of this analogy.

 

 

The fact is that you have no proof of this and especially for minor lords which is what we are talking about.     If anything, this desire to give the “appearance” of no break in family line would ensure greater secrecy in any such adoptions that were needed due to infertility or deaths of the true line.      That level of secrecy would preclude AS from ever being completely sure even for minor lords.

Actually, we have plenty of proof.  Elenia, when questioned by Rand, knows the exact family tree of descent from Ishara for Trakand and Mantear and she's not from either House.  Nobles keep track of each other's bloodlines.  The bloodline must be kept pure because that is the basis of the family's claim to power.  That is what this system of nobility is based upon!

 

 

I'm sorry, but i find that a pointless argument. It casts not dark aspirations on Cadsuane, nor implies stupidity--the male channelers had to be dealt with, end of game. There are signs that decry the Dragon, that's what the prophecies are for--and the Aes Sedai are conscientious of the idea of accidently gentling the Dragon--Siuan comments on it several times.   

 

What?       Who was trying to cast dark aspirations on Caddy?

 

And I could well be wrong but I thought that in EoTW, Moraine and Siuan commented that they had to be careful because Rand could quite easily get accidentally gentled before he was declared

It was TGH, and you're simply restating what Luckers said.  I bolded it for you, as well as the relevant point in his quote.

[triadruid]

I honestly don't see what your problem with Cadsuane is.  She earned her reputation.  She didn't sit around and take the credit for others' actions.  She went out and fought to protect the world. 

And she did it in part because she secretly kept *angreal from the White Tower. I think that's what wvlr meant by "undeserved reputation".

 

He hears their advice.  That is, he stands there while they tell him.  But in the end, he decides to do whatever he wants, and all they can say is "As my Lord Dragon wishes."  I don't see that as listening to their advice.  There is a difference between hearing and listening.  To Rand. their words may as well be the wind, because there is just as little meaning for him.

Hmmm, more than once Rand listens to Min. And he listens to some of his trusted Asha'man. Although I'm not sure what time-frame you're using to judge "he doesn't listen to anyone anymore".

[Hybrid]

I honestly don't see what your problem with Cadsuane is.  She earned her reputation.  She didn't sit around and take the credit for others' actions.  She went out and fought to protect the world. 

And she did it in part because she secretly kept *angreal from the White Tower. I think that's what wvlr meant by "undeserved reputation".

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.  I'm still curious why wvlr thought she should break Tower law by forcing sisters to swear they were not Black Ajah with the Oath Rod, but that it is a big deal to break the Tower law about angreal.

 

He hears their advice.  That is, he stands there while they tell him.  But in the end, he decides to do whatever he wants, and all they can say is "As my Lord Dragon wishes."  I don't see that as listening to their advice.  There is a difference between hearing and listening.  To Rand. their words may as well be the wind, because there is just as little meaning for him.

Hmmm, more than once Rand listens to Min. And he listens to some of his trusted Asha'man. Although I'm not sure what time-frame you're using to judge "he doesn't listen to anyone anymore".

When did he ever listen to the Asha'man?  Logain's been warning him about Taim and Rand refuses to listen.  Not that Rand is believes Taim is on his side, but he doesn't think it a priority.  The other Asha'man with Rand (Narishma, Flinn, Karldin) don't advise him.  They obey orders.  As for Min, Rand only listens to her when she asks to come along.  Not when it concerns his policies.  She thought it was a bad idea for him to go into the Cairhienin rebel camp, but he shook her off.

[Swigaro]

I honestly don't see what your problem with Cadsuane is.  She earned her reputation.  She didn't sit around and take the credit for others' actions.  She went out and fought to protect the world. 

And she did it in part because she secretly kept *angreal from the White Tower. I think that's what wvlr meant by "undeserved reputation".

 

 

 

 

Cadsuane does however make refrence to the fact that she worked very hard to earn those ter'angrael from the wilder in the black hills.  Besides all of that look at what the ter'angrael actuall do.  So far as I recall, there is an angrael, a ter'angrael that detects channeling, male and female, another that disrupts flows (like Matt's amulet) and a well.  While these make her increadibly effective in the field, trying to keep male channelers from destroying the world, none of them, really would directly influence the way another Aes Sedai viewed her.  None give her an edge, in the hirerchy of the white tower.  She doesn't need the Thingies to gain status, she was the most powerful Aes Sedai in the last 1000 years (until, of course the Egwene Nyneave and Elayne showed up).  Because of Aes Sedai social structure, she was going to get the defrence anyway, she was just that much stronger than everyone else.  Yes, people who see the way other Aes Sedai bow and scrape to her, and think, "Damn, if thoes Aes Sedai hop, when she says toad, so should I."  But even if she didn't have some of the coolest toys in the story, the Aes Sedai would still behave the same way.

 

 

Cadsuane is simply using every resource at her desposal to be the most effective Aes Sedai she can be; perhaps the most effective Aes Sedai in the last 500 years or so.  Is any characters acomplishment tainted because they use the most effective tool for the job?  Is Lan less of a swordsman because he uses a power wrought blade?  Haveing the best tools to acomplish your goals doesn't make Cadsuane'd reputation undeserved, IMO.  Perhaps, if she didn't already have a channeling potential that basicly gaurentees that anyone short of the Amerlyn herself would defer to her, I might question her reputation.  

[wvlr]

 

Well thanks for replying but we don't seem to be getting anywhere here & I just don't have that much time to put together posts that are not completely read or understood.    I am sure that it is my fault - my posts are done on the fly while I am on break and so they are probably just not composed well enough for you and luckers to comprehend.  Again, I am SURE that it is my fault, not your's so please don't take offense.

 

Cheers!!!      :) :) :)

[Dakeyras]

As for Min, Rand only listens to her when she asks to come along.  Not when it concerns his policies.  She thought it was a bad idea for him to go into the Cairhienin rebel camp, but he shook her off.

 

Are you kidding? When does Rand ever listen to Min? Do you have half an hour to list all the visions she's had?

 

Going into the Cairhienin camp is what brought him Darlin and Caroline. Yes he decided to ignore her in this but something good came out of it. Sure something bad happened too but it's not like she advised him not to go in fear of Fain stabbing him.

 

Just like when Rand ignored Moiraine about taking the Aiel over the Dragonwall. If he didn't he wouldn't have an army.

 

There's a difference between listening to peoples advice and doing what they say all the time. Moiraine's a bad choice in this argument anyway because in the early books she doesn't give advice so much as orders. I'm aware you didn't mention Moiraine but others have.

 

[Hybrid]

As for Min, Rand only listens to her when she asks to come along.  Not when it concerns his policies.  She thought it was a bad idea for him to go into the Cairhienin rebel camp, but he shook her off.

 

Are you kidding? When does Rand ever listen to Min? Do you have half an hour to list all the visions she's had?

 

Going into the Cairhienin camp is what brought him Darlin and Caroline. Yes he decided to ignore her in this but something good came out of it. Sure something bad happened too but it's not like she advised him not to go in fear of Fain stabbing him.

 

Just like when Rand ignored Moiraine about taking the Aiel over the Dragonwall. If he didn't he wouldn't have an army.

 

There's a difference between listening to peoples advice and doing what they say all the time. Moiraine's a bad choice in this argument anyway because in the early books she doesn't give advice so much as orders. I'm aware you didn't mention Moiraine but others have.

 

 

Read my whole post.  I did mention Moiraine.  Also, the visions Min has are not advice on Rand's policies.  She simply tells him, Gueyam is going to die, or something to that effect and of course he listens to her.  Just like he reads and pays heed to the Prophecies of the Dragon.  Min's visions are a simple statement of what is going to happen.  Also, I was never arguing that Rand made the wrong choice to go to the rebel camp, I simply stated that he did not listen to Min's advice.  She thought it a risky move, and without his ta'verness, it would have been.

 

As I stated before, Cadsuane is the only character who stands up to Rand in his temper tantrums.  Rand does not have these around Min because he loves her.

 

And wvlr, my posts are also composed on the fly while I am on break.  As for your posts, I do completely read through them, and I believe I have addressed every point you made.  If you don't believe my arguments, fine, but please don't demean my efforts by saying I didn't read or understand your posts.

[Dakeyras]

Read my whole post.  I did mention Moiraine.

 

Forgive me I must be going blind in my old age. Please be so kind as to point out where.

 

When did he ever listen to the Asha'man?  Logain's been warning him about Taim and Rand refuses to listen.  Not that Rand is believes Taim is on his side, but he doesn't think it a priority.  The other Asha'man with Rand (Narishma, Flinn, Karldin) don't advise him.  They obey orders.  As for Min, Rand only listens to her when she asks to come along.  Not when it concerns his policies.  She thought it was a bad idea for him to go into the Cairhienin rebel camp, but he shook her off.

 

Also, the visions Min has are not advice on Rand's policies.  She simply tells him, Gueyam is going to die, or something to that effect and of course he listens to her.  Just like he reads and pays heed to the Prophecies of the Dragon.  Min's visions are a simple statement of what is going to happen.  Also, I was never arguing that Rand made the wrong choice to go to the rebel camp, I simply stated that he did not listen to Min's advice.  She thought it a risky move, and without his ta'verness, it would have been.

 

It's a risky move every time Rand steps out of his bedroom. Hell it's a risky move everytime he steps into his bedroom with Lanfear about. Rand doesn't avoid doing things because it's risky. Min "advised" Rand not to go to the rebel camp because it was dangerous. That was it. She had no vision, had no knowledge of political motivations she was just scared for Rands safety because she loves him. Not the best adviser really. Besides, when has Min ever tried influencing Rands policies? She's a tavern girl and she knows it. Unlike Egwene she doesn't assume she knows whats best for the world just because she's a woman. That's why I like her so much.

 

 

please don't demean my efforts by saying I didn't read or understand your posts.

 

Like you did to me in this very post? The irony.

 

Me and you are going at it today it seems. Nothing personal :)

 

[Hybrid]

Read my whole post.  I did mention Moiraine.

 

Forgive me I must be going blind in my old age. Please be so kind as to point out where.

But of course!

Reply 64:

Quote

     The same went for Moraine.

Have you read TDR?  The entire book was Rand ignoring Moiraine's advice.

 

Reply 76:

Exactly.  Rand listened to her advice... and then refused to comply with what she advised him to do.  Her advice was hardly bad.  If not for Moiraine's surprise intervention and the Aiel's surprise attack, Be'lal's plan probably would have succeeded.  Rand simply does not want to listen to her or anyone else, period.  Cadsuane, on the other hand, has actually been able to change Rand's actions with her advice

 

He hears their advice.  That is, he stands there while they tell him.  But in the end, he decides to do whatever he wants, and all they can say is "As my Lord Dragon wishes."  I don't see that as listening to their advice.  There is a difference between hearing and listening.  To Rand. their words may as well be the wind, because there is just as little meaning for him.

They being Moiraine and assorted others.  I was directly responding to wvlr when he mentioned Moiraine among others.

 

Perhaps you are going blind.  ::)

 

 

It's a risky move every time Rand steps out of his bedroom. Hell it's a risky move everytime he steps into his bedroom with Lanfear about. Rand doesn't avoid doing things because it's risky. Min "advised" Rand not to go to the rebel camp because it was dangerous. That was it. She had no vision, had no knowledge of political motivations she was just scared for Rands safety because she loves him. Not the best adviser really. Besides, when has Min ever tried influencing Rands policies? She's a tavern girl and she knows it. Unlike Egwene she doesn't assume she knows whats best for the world just because she's a woman. That's why I like her so much.

OK... What's your point?  Again, I'm not arguing about whether it was dangerous for Rand.  I said that Min doesn't generally advise Rand and the time she did (at the camp) he shook her off.  And you agreed!  So what is your issue?  Here is my post so that you can read it. ;):

 

Read my whole post.  I did mention Moiraine.  Also, the visions Min has are not advice on Rand's policies.  She simply tells him, Gueyam is going to die, or something to that effect and of course he listens to her.  Just like he reads and pays heed to the Prophecies of the Dragon.  Min's visions are a simple statement of what is going to happen.  Also, I was never arguing that Rand made the wrong choice to go to the rebel camp, I simply stated that he did not listen to Min's advice.  She thought it a risky move, and without his ta'verness, it would have been.

 

please don't demean my efforts by saying I didn't read or understand your posts.

 

Like you did to me in this very post? The irony.

 

Me and you are going at it today it seems. Nothing personal :)

 

 

Yes, but wvlr's post seemed to me to be implying that I was either too thickheaded to see his point or not reading his posts.  Yet, I quoted his entire post, then addressed each argument with a small paragraph below it.  I quoted the relevant parts of my posts for you.  The fact that you missed them signifies to me that you didn't read them...

[Dakeyras]

Perhaps you are going blind.  ::)

 

Or perhaps you don't understand what a post is. A post isn't a collection of things you've said ranging over 6 pages. I even gave you the post I originally quoted. Usually when someone quotes a specific post they're referring to that specific post not everything you've ever said... ::)

 

OK... What's your point?  Again, I'm not arguing about whether it was dangerous for Rand.  I said that Min doesn't generally advise Rand and the time she did (at the camp) he shook her off.  And you agreed!  So what is your issue?  Here is my post so that you can read it. ;)

 

My point is that Mins advice didn't stem from being well informed. Mins advice came from not wanting to see Rand in danger. That is NOT a basis on which to inform the Dragon Reborn of what he should and should not be doing. Therefore it's understandable that Rand didn't drop to his knees and praise Min as an all knowing deity.

 

How can you be arguing that Min "doesnt generally advise Rand" when your whole argument is that Rand never listens to her advice? How is he supposed to listen to it if she never gives it?

 

Yet, I quoted his entire post, then addressed each argument with a small paragraph below it.  I quoted the relevant parts of my posts for you.  The fact that you missed them signifies to me that you didn't read them...

 

So you can quote 1 of wvlr's posts but I have to quote all of yours?

 

I quoted the post from you that I wanted addressed. If you think i'm going to go through 6 or 7 pages and quote every post you've made you're loco.

 

I don't even see why this is a point of contention. I clearly pointed out what post of yours I was referring to. TWICE.

[Valinthros]

Or perhaps you don't understand what a post is. A post isn't a collection of things you've said ranging over 6 pages. I even gave you the post I originally quoted. Usually when someone quotes a specific post they're referring to that specific post not everything you've ever said... ::)

 

I'm not sure why you're argueing over whether or not Min advised Rand at all.  Barrelling into Hybrid like this over a small portion of the original point, in which he _did_ include Moiraine in his arguments on the topic.  In fact Min seemed to be included in the batch as an afterthought.  So you have a problem reading more than one post on the same topic in the same thread by the same poster?  Amazing.

 

My point is that Mins advice didn't stem from being well informed. Mins advice came from not wanting to see Rand in danger. That is NOT a basis on which to inform the Dragon Reborn of what he should and should not be doing. Therefore it's understandable that Rand didn't drop to his knees and praise Min as an all knowing deity.

 

I went ahead and made some bold points, and kept the rest of this part in tact.  So, you agree that Min was 'Advising' Rand?  In addition, you'd like to tell Min to stop trying to run Rand's life.  So, you're saying that the woman Rand loves, and trusts, shouldnt try to advise him.  Or that he didnt listen to her because she's not a wise person?  You lost me here.  In fact you lost me as soon as you started posting in here.  You know the argument right?  That Cads either sucks or does not, and Rand listens to no one or listens to everyone.  I'm pretty sure who advises who wasnt the point.  Oh, and you're wrong.  Min advises Rand on several points.  Then again, you just said that in your previous post.

 

Normally I stay out of things like this, but seriously, contradicting yourself, and specifically attacking someone on a point that you somehow agree with, is not only funny;  I felt it'd be neat to point out.

 

 

[Dakeyras]

Edit - I see were this went wrong. The usage of the word 'policy' tripped me into thinking of Rand as a governor not of his individual actions in which case I did contradict myself as far as Min adivsing him.

 

My main point still stands however. Min advised him not to go into the camp because she didn't want to see him in danger. It's perfectly understandable for Rand not to take her advice in that case. Just like it was perfectly understandable for him not to take Moiraines advice not to take the Aiel over the Dragonwall. That doesn't mean he doesn't take advice from people. Again taking advice and doing everything someone says is different.

[Hybrid]

First of all, you're taking your posts entirely out of context.

Second, your wording is:

There's a difference between listening to peoples advice and doing what they say all the time. Moiraine's a bad choice in this argument anyway because in the early books she doesn't give advice so much as orders. I'm aware you didn't mention Moiraine but others have.

So, you split hairs over whether Moiraine was mentioned in a tiny post I made to reply to points of another user, but you mention the posts of "others" in your original post.  If your arguments only concerned my single post (which was not a post I would consider central to the current discussion) out of the dozens on this thread and the dozen or so I've posted, why did you mention the arguments of other posters?

 

My main point still stands however. Min advised him not to go into the camp because she didn't want to see him in danger. It's perfectly understandable for Rand not to take her advice in that case. Just like it was perfectly understandable for him not to take Moiraines advice not to take the Aiel over the Dragonwall.

I am not arguing over whether Rand's decisions are good or not.  My argument was whether Cadsuane is a good influence on him, and it was against wvlr.

 

That doesn't mean he doesn't take advice from people. Again taking advice and doing everything someone says is different.

There is also a difference from taking advice and doing nothing someone says.  In addition, Moiraine did not have to deal with Rand's temper tantrums because there were none in the beginning, nor does Min.  They are hardly relevant to my argument.  Just for the record, do you hate Cadsuane like wvlr or do you think she will be a valuable asset for Rand?

[Dakeyras]

We've got our wires crossed good and proper, mainly from me misinterpreting your original intent. So i'm just going to explain myself and then crawl out of the hole i've dug myself into.

 

I am not arguing over whether Rand's decisions are good or not.  My argument was whether Cadsuane is a good influence on him, and it was against wvlr.

 

In the post I quoted you said Rand doesn't listen to anyone. Not Logain, Asha'man or Min. You then went on to give an example of Rand not listening to Mins advice when going into the camp. "Rand only listens to her when she want's to come...She said it was a bad idea about the camp he didn't listen etc."

 

My point was that saying he never listens by giving an example of Min advising him out of fear that he'll get hurt isn't really justified. He's the Dragon Reborn he shouldn't be advised not to do something incase he gets hurt and he knows it.

 

 

Just for the record, do you hate Cadsuane like wvlr or do you think she will be a valuable asset for Rand?

 

I don't hate her. Rand most certainly needs her.

[Hybrid]

Well, I misinterpreted you too.

 

My point was that saying he never listens by giving an example of Min advising him out of fear that he'll get hurt isn't really justified. He's the Dragon Reborn he shouldn't be advised not to do something incase he gets hurt and he knows it.

 

True.  Not necessarily a good example, but wvlr brought up Min first, so I was just replying.

 

I guess we really don't disagree on anything then, lol.

[Luckers]

Ummm guess don't remember that POV.  Seems bit werid the oath rod can be smuggled all over the tower and no one misses it.  Gotta love that Aes Sedai security.

 

 

The Aes Sedai don't know that it can be used to remove the Oaths--Pevara and Seine guess that it could be after realising the Black Ajah are not bound, and investigate, but the common belief is that they cannot be removed. As such there is no real reason to pay a great deal of attention to who is using the oath rod.

 

It's still limited to sitters, however.

 

1.  That is ridiculous because she has already developed her REPUTATION based on her use of them.    Regardless as to whether someone knew that she had used those tools to help her earn that REPUTATION.      All AS now treat her differently because of her past accomplishments.      Accomplishments that were earned via those “Thingies”.        Since AS visably treat her differently, this is obviously seen by NON  AS who already regard most AS very highly, resulting in even higher respect given to Caddy from non-AS.  The “Gee AS are scared of her – I better jump twice as high for her as I go for regular AS.”

 

Yes, I responded to those arguments, would you care to reply? Specifically the example i used to disreguard that argument is Harin--who neither knows of her ter'angreal, nor her reputation, nor is she impressed with her as a person, and ends up doing exactly what Cadsuane wants.

 

Cadsuane is Cadsuane. Included in that are her ter'angreal, but they are far from the only weapons in her arsenal.

 

2.    We do not have a constant POV from Caddy throughout the books so we can not be sure what “Thingies” she might be using at any given time.    We do know that she has “Thingies” that tell her if a male channeler is near and if he is holding Saidin.    Because we see this at least once (CoT  US  HB  Pg 540).

 

Yes, we can, because we know precisely what her ter'angreal can do, and none include any degree of manipulation or interogation. Here is the list.

 

 

1. First Star - Vibrates when a man who can channel is nearby.

2. Hummingbird - Is a Well

3. Swallow - Detects channeling and indicates direction of channeler. Does not detect cross-gender links.

4. Shrike - Angreal

5. First Fish - Possibly breaks a distant weave (the way she took out Semirhage)**

6. Second Fish - Use Unknown to Cadsuane.

7. Third Fish - Use Unknown to Cadsuane.

8. Two intertwined Moons - breaks direct weaves (like Mat's).

9. A Crescent Moon - Use Unknown to Cadsuane.

10. Unmentioned Star - (The stars were mentioned in plural) Possibly breaks a distant weave (the way she took out Semirhage)**

 

**It's unknown which ter'angreal allowed her to break Semirhages disguise though my money is on the Fish because Cadsuane states that she doesn't know the use of 'two of her fish' suggesting she knows the use of the third. Still, its uncertain.

 

To what use do you believe she is putting those that accounts for her success? In what way does her having access to those uses attribute her success singularily to those ter'angreal when in fact the majority of those she deals with know nothing of her ter'angreal?

 

So yes she is actively using her “Thingies” in her dealings with one person that we know of  - Rand and she can’t help but use the Reputation that she earned in part from her historical use of the Thingies.      Does she walk around telling people that she is going to hit them on the head with her Thingies if they do not do what she wants – NO – that is effectively handled by her REPUTATION.      People are awed by her reputation.

 

Ok, I've gotta ask... whats with the 'Thingies' and 'REPUTATION'. They are called ter'angreal, and where is the need for caps?

 

As for your comments, of course she is using her ter'angreal... why wouldn't she? They are powerful. But from there i disagree, people are awed by her, and whilst that invocation of awe is what causes her reputation to be so profound amongst Aes Sedai, that reputation is not known to the general populace who feel awe for her anyway--because of her strength of will, her presense.

 

You seem to be trying to suggest through your dramatic reiteration of REPUTATION and Thingies that the awe and respect attributed to her are in fact a lie, a smokescreen. Reread the books my friend, that awe is real, and its basis begins quite simply with her. Her past comes into it, a past of capability and achievement.

 

All that says is that she has a REPUTATION for being powerful, effective and awesome--and since she is indeed all of those things thats hardly an argument against her.

 

“the policy is not a particularly bad one”???    If they had inadvertently gentled the DR and the whole world was lost to the DO –  I WOULD CONSIDER THIS TO BE BAD!!!      I think that every non-Darkfriend would agree that it would be bad!

That was the context of the statement.    Why would Ogier or Far Maddingites refuse something that would save the world over the stupidity that was being committed?     

 

Well, a) that quite obviously never happened, and with good reason as the Pattern pushed a foretelling that led to the Aes Sedai being aware of exactly who Rand was in order that when he came into the open he did not get gentled. b) they were aware of that danger, and were wary of the appearence of the Dragon in order that what you speak of did not happen (which I've already stated, and am thus confused as to why you raised this again without addressing that point). And of course c) had they not the world would have been destroyed.

 

End of game. They had to act against male channelers. Any action they took place the Dragon at risk. They could have simply killed him, like the Sea Folk or the atha'an miere. They could have kept him ignorent THEN killed him like the Ayyad.

 

 

Ref WH  US PB Pg 730.    Aleis (of the FM Counsel) “We have no fear of Asha’man, Cadsuane”    Until this incident – they had no care if a male OR female channeler was in FM, because they knew that said channeler could not channel within the city limits.    FM also has a very tight security system set up so that not even a SWORD can enter or leave without their permission.      Surely that could easily be adapted to include a branded male channeler.      As far as Ogier are concerned, they have ALREADY shown their willingness to do what was necessary to save the world.

 

*sigh* I also addressed this. Care to comment on that before repeating yourself verbatim?

 

“Moiraine was forced to flee under cover of dark.”

 

Come on!      Moraine was only just raised and was caught up in other very urgent and important business that could not be delayed at the time.      It really demeans your argument to even mention it. 

 

And in what way do you feel it would have been different later on? Moiraine was still weaker in the power, still not as experienced.

 

What point precisely were you trying to make? Moiraine is not Cadsuane. She is very, very dangerous in her own way, and very deft, but she could not do what Cadsuane is doing, and she couldn't have taken Cadsuane in a fight.

 

“In a direct confrontation with either Cadsuane would win.”    No in a direct confrontation with Verin, Caddy would be DEAD!!    She came DAMN close already and you know it!

 

That was not a direct confrontation, that was Verin concidering poisoning Cadsuane. Which, if you'd actually read my comment, i addressed. "In a direct confrontation with either Cadsuane would win. Verin would never let such a confrontation happen."

 

Again im confused at what your attempting to do here. Of course Verin and Moiraine are very strong, very dangerous characters--Verin indeed i would say is by far more dangerous than Cadsuane. But neither are as strong-willed as Cadsuane, nor could they achieve what she is doing. Both had their roles, just as Cadsuane has hers.

 

I am sorry but I can’t take this as gospel, if you do – that is OK to me - but to me the AS really seemed to be terribly sloppy about those things – look at all the runaways and AS rejects that left the Tower with that stuff.    Look at Caddy she has had her stuff near forever and we know from Moraine that their possession of such stuff is supposed to be limited.    But you are probably correct that that was the way that it was supposed to work.     

 

No, we know that to be the way it works as fact. Wardings were placed, and to break through them the Black Ajah were forced to kill the Aes Sedai warding it, thus proving as fact that non-legitimate attempts to access the ter'angreal were actively guarded against.

 

Well that is what they would like you to believe but if you believe it then how about if I sell you some prime beach front property in Arizona.      I can guarantee you that it will be a steal!

 

The fact is that you have no proof of this and especially for minor lords which is what we are talking about.    If anything, this desire to give the “appearance” of no break in family line would ensure greater secrecy in any such adoptions that were needed due to infertility or deaths of the true line.      That level of secrecy would preclude AS from ever being completely sure even for minor lords.

 

Umm... what? This is not a scam, this is their system of social government. Have a look at history, mate--the careful recording of artistocratic lines is not a mere function of 'appearence'. I'm sorry but your argument strikes me as absurd.

 

Besides which--how can you hold this as an argument against Cadsuane? She reasonably and rationally examined those she took down for signs they are the dragon, and having proven them not to be she took them down. You argue she might have been wrong? What do you know of the detail to which she examined her targets? She, after all, was not wrong. Ever.

 

What?      Who was trying to cast dark aspirations on Caddy?

 

Umm... you were... is not your whole perspective on how bad Cadsuane is, did not you begin it with this "The only (sad) crying that I would be doing is that she wasn’t balefired sooner."?

 

"Poisoning someones tea behind their back does not exactly qualify as "direct confrontation" in my book."

 

It is direct enough in MY book and I would think that it would be direct enough for the DEAD person as well.    Dead is DEAD!!!

 

Yes, but it hardly speaks to their comparative strengths, now does it? And that was your point, was it not... that Verin is more effective than Cadsuane... but the ability to poison Cadsuane behind her back does not make Verin more effective--it makes her incredibly dangerous, but it doesn't speak anything at all to Cadsuane's strengths or lack thereof.

 

And your book or not, Cadsuane could kill Verin without breaking a sweat if she so chose, irrespective of if Verin knew she was going to try or not. The same cannot be said of Verin killing Cadsuane.