What effect do oath rods have on the soul of the user?

[Phigazz]

Who uses and why:

Aes Sedai – current age – After the breaking they started using the Oath rod so people would trust that they were not in peril.

Criminals – AOL – insure no deviant behavior

 

What it does:

Aes Sedai say they “feel” the oaths taken, ingraining into their being/ soul

 

 

But how does it work?

The persons thread in the pattern has many different possible paths, I believe that the pattern doesn’t give them options that would let them go against the oath

Therefore the oath rod (Binder) is a tool of the pattern

Pattern controls “souls” and re-spins them out to its purpose

 

Proofs:

The pattern spins souls out when needed. (ie tav’ern and  the horn, a tool of the pattern)

All the heros (including Rand) are “bound” to the pattern

Oath rods – used to be called Binders (to the pattern)

People who used Binders in the AOL, were Criminals

 

 

Conclusion:

The heros from the horn including Rand (the dragon soul) were criminals from the past?

Why would the Pattern use Criminals to correct mistakes in the weavings?

Since souls don’t change over time, and the new Aes Sedai are increasing the use of the Binder, are they also adding possible Heros into the pattern?

 

 

Luckers, you gonna come and poo-poo my 2nd post too?  just kidding.

 

Enjoy

[Silver]

Well, you're assuming two things here.

 

1) The oath rod was in existence before the Heroes.

 

2) The Heroes can channel.

[Dakeyras]

Also assuming the oath rod affects the soul in any way.

 

If the oath rod affected the soul and an Aes Sedai died, then was reborn as a channeler the effects of the oath rod would still be viable. The baby would be born unable to lie and possibly with an ageless face. Weird.

 

Besides, the heroes of the horn became heroes through bravery and other chivalrous deeds.

[Majsju]

Just for fun...

And some basic math...There are about 100 Heroes. Even in such a evolved society as AOL, there should have been far more criminals that the Binder was used on, considering that the AOL must have lasted quite some time. Add to that a few thousand Aes Sedai from the 3rd Age...

[DemandredFO]

I believe it is said in one of the Wondergirls accepted tests, I would have liked to see Elaynes. that the binder was found in the trolloc wars.

[Phigazz]

Well, you're assuming two things here.

 

1) The oath rod was in existence before the Heroes.

 

2) The Heroes can channel.

 

 

1:since we know this isnt the first turning of the wheel.... thats a chicken and egg argument.

2:The Criminals during the AOL couldn't have all been channelers.  Rod should work on everyone.

 

 

[Phigazz]

Also assuming the oath rod affects the soul in any way.

 

If the oath rod affected the soul and an Aes Sedai died, then was reborn as a channeler the effects of the oath rod would still be viable. The baby would be born unable to lie and possibly with an ageless face. Weird.

 

Besides, the heroes of the horn became heroes through bravery and other chivalrous deeds.

 

 

If the Binder does not effect the soul, how is the oath-taker bound?

#2 is a good point... I'll think on this.

#3 you can't say the heroes were brave every time they were spun out, let alone during the first Turning of the wheel.

[Phigazz]

Just for fun...

And some basic math...There are about 100 Heroes. Even in such a evolved society as AOL, there should have been far more criminals that the Binder was used on, considering that the AOL must have lasted quite some time. Add to that a few thousand Aes Sedai from the 3rd Age...

 

I thought someone would more than likely bring numbers into this... the only (weak) argument I can make is that we know heroes are spun out.

The horn can only pull heroes from the dream world.

 

[Silver]

Actually, from all evidence we have, the rod does only work on channelers (and possibly only females besides).

[Majsju]

I thought someone would more than likely bring numbers into this... the only (weak) argument I can make is that we know heroes are spun out.

The horn can only pull heroes from the dream world.

 

That would mean that thousands of Heroes were spun out when Mat blew the Horn. Seems a tad unlikley, does it not?

[Phigazz]

I thought someone would more than likely bring numbers into this... the only (weak) argument I can make is that we know heroes are spun out.

The horn can only pull heroes from the dream world.

 

That would mean that thousands of Heroes were spun out when Mat blew the Horn. Seems a tad unlikley, does it not?

 

Perhaps I didnt make it clear.  We know souls are "reborn" and that Heroes are also "reborn" into the regular world, ie Gladal Cain (sp?).  perhaps only "about 100" were in the dream world when the horn was tooted. the rest were already alive and living in Randland as regualr people.

[Majsju]

But if they are living as regular people, they are not Heroes. The thing about Heroes is that they are removed from the normal cycle of reincarnation, and are only spun out when the Wheel has plans for them. So if "the rest" were already spun out, you would have thousands of Heroes walking around. Or, as in Cains case, crawling around leaking from both ends.

[Dakeyras]

If the Binder does not effect the soul, how is the oath-taker bound?

#2 is a good point... I'll think on this.

#3 you can't say the heroes were brave every time they were spun out, let alone during the first Turning of the wheel.

 

By their ability to channel. Silver's correct, we only have evidence for the oath rods working on channelers. The oath rods were created in the AoL by Aes Sedai. The hall of servants had absolute control of punishing Aes Sedai in the AoL, presumably because they could bind them via the rod to stop them doing whatever it is they did in the first place. Which other governments couldn't do.

 

The whole idea of being a "hero" is to be "brave" or virtuous. To go above and beyond, it's the very definition of the word.

 

I'm having a hard time imagining the Dragon soul has having been a horse thief or Birgitte a murderer in their past lives. Especially Birgitte, as she hasn't been reborn, she's basically all her past lives rolled into one, atleast when we first see her out of T'a'r. I just didn't get that murder vibe from her.

[Blue]

sry can i just ask a q bout the oath rod here pls. When the sisters in the tower are hunting the black ajah they swear on the oath rod a mumber of times and they do not remove the previous oaths each time. (they do sometimes) Are these sisters shortening their lives even more each time they swear an oath again or does it have no effect as it is the same oath. So can we expect some of these sisters who are in there middle years to just keel over dead soon as they are cutting out more and more of their lives or have i completely misunderstood? sorry for going off topic.

[Jehaine]

Coming in a bit late in the conversation, but i've always figured the Oath Rod to be some kind of geas.

 

A geis can be compared with a curse or, paradoxically, a gift. If someone under a geis violates the associated taboo, the infractor will suffer dishonour or even death. On the other hand, the observing of one's geasa is believed to bring power and good fortune.

 

Basically, in exchange for longevity, the (official) ability to channel, membership of the White Tower and any and all related benefits they place three geas on themselves using the Rod. Three is actually a fairly important number in celtic mythology (where geas come from), but most likely symbolise Land, Sea and Air in this case to show the scope of where the geas is valid.

 

I could be totally wrong, of course, but that's my two cents ^^;

[Hybrid]

A geis can be compared with a curse or, paradoxically, a gift. If someone under a geis violates the associated taboo, the infractor will suffer dishonour or even death. On the other hand, the observing of one's geasa is believed to bring power and good fortune.

 

Interesting.  There are similarities, but the main difference is that Aes Sedai cannot violate their oaths, while those under a geas will die from any violation.  Aes Sedai can only die from an oath when 2 oaths conflict.

[Ndshacker]

 

 

Two things first off In order for us to understand the weave we would have to live in that world and truly be there as it happens. Aside from a few places where Robert Jordan is very descriptive, we'll never know the whole story. So all we can do is make assumptions.

 

And second-off the oath rod only works on female channelers, of which we have proof, when the shaido meet one if The forsaken and receive the oath rod, he says it only works for women and for men there is a binding chair.

[Mr Ares]

for men there is a binding chair.

Isn't that for non-channelers?

 

 

[Sabio]

If it affected your soul then if you were stilled wouldn't the oaths still have a hold on you?  Its clear once you are stilled and had the power restored to you the oaths are gone.  Though I do find it interesting none of the sisters Rand stilled, when they got their power back seem to have said anything about the oaths being gone.

[Majsju]

It might be as simple as none of them having discovered that they are no longer bound by the Oaths. If you have lived for decades not being able to lie, it should be second nature to chose your words so you never do that. And the two other Oaths is not exactly something you would risk coming into conflict with in your everyday life.

[CUBAREY]

And second-off the oath rod only works on female channelers, of which we have proof, when the shaido meet one if The forsaken and receive the oath rod, he says it only works for women and for men there is a binding chair. 

 

 

Are we to take the Foresaken at face value? There are several reasons why a male forsaken might have lied to the Shaido about this as he did about other matters.

 

More importantly, what we do know of the oath rods is that they were originally intended to bind criminal channelers in the AOL. Nothing we have read suggests that they eould not be effective on male criminal channelers. Thus the Oath Rods propably would work if male channelers choose to make oaths on them.

[Ndshacker]

I though  about that too, but what reason does the forsaken have to lie to her. MAybe im just not very good at unravelling lies.  ;D

 

But I was just saying that everything we've seen and heard points to it only working on women who can channel.

 

 

Ps. How many women murders with the one power in the age of legends? Think about the numbers on the two rods weve seen so far. Or maybe it was just one per town.

[CUBAREY]

I though  about that too, but what reason does the forsaken have to lie to her. MAybe im just not very good at unravelling lies. 

 

 

How about the simplist reason to lie. The Forsaken is concerned that if the Shaido ever learn that he can channel then they will bind him with the oath Rod.

[Ndshacker]

But in order for him to be bound he has to say the oath, I doubt the few wise ones could have over powered him. And they dont know compulsion. So they cant make him say it.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

you'd be surprised what you can make people do under the right conditions..