Traitors

[Asmo]

As of the end of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>, Mazrim Taim is confirmed a Darkfriend, and that is no longer up for grabs. It is reasonable to suppose that most of the Asha'man in that room with him when Pevara and the others arrive are also Darkfriends (and potential Dreadlords).

 

No. True, the evidence is strong, very strong, that he is a Darkfriend, almost conclusive, yet not a fact. I do believe, of course, that Taim is a Darkfriend - I believe Taim is Moridin, but anyway - but that doesn't make it a fact.

[Mr Ares]

We did have a poster who argued that Taim was not a Darkfriend at all, but a dupe - the people with him in KoD were DFs, but he wasn't. One of the reasons for this theory was that we didn't have any Taim POVs - as we only saw the damning evidence from the outside, we were being mislead by RJ into thinking Tim ws bad when he wasn't. As Asmo says, the case for Taim=dark may be strong, but it is not proven fact. Personally, I think Taim is a bad guy. I also think he is actually Mazrim Taim, cunningly disguised as Mazrim Taim. It's a brilliant plan. Who would ever expect the man of being himself?

[Vemynal]

I think if Taim was moridin we would have been introduced to moridin before being introduced to taim

 

And then theres the fact that Moridin has given over using only the true power instead of saidin, while Taim has been seen several times using saidin

 

Taim is himself

[Snowy Dawn]

No. True, the evidence is strong, very  strong, that he is a Darkfriend, almost conclusive, yet not a fact.

 

Um... Given what you say next, he wouldn't be a darkfriend because he is one of the forsaken. I don't agree that Taim is Moridin, but I can't see how ``Let the Lord of Chaos Rule'' isn't conclusive. What more would you need?

 

I do believe, of course, that Taim is a Darkfriend - I believe Taim is Moridin, but anyway - but that doesn't make it a fact.

 

Ishamael/Moridin/Elan Morin Tedronai is Taim's sponser among the forsaken so far as I can see, but I would need a lot more than we have so far to say that there is even a minimal probability that Taim <i>is</i> Moridin. Ishamael appeared a number of times as himsef to Rand, and several times to Perrin and Mat in their dreams, including the ``wolf-dream'' in which Ishamael and Lanfear both appear. Taim is on a battlefield in Saldaea when Rand battles Ishamael in the sky over Falme. And so forth, and so on. There is way too much to say that they are not the same individual and virtually nothing to say that they are. I am not inviting you to lay out your case here, btw. Far from it.

[Mr Ares]

I can't see how "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" isn't conclusive. What more would you need?

A Taim POV where he admits to being a bad guy might help some people.

[Hybrid]

We did have a poster who argued that Taim was not a Darkfriend at all, but a dupe - the people with him in KoD were DFs, but he wasn't. One of the reasons for this theory was that we didn't have any Taim POVs - as we only saw the damning evidence from the outside, we were being mislead by RJ into thinking Tim ws bad when he wasn't. As Asmo says, the case for Taim=dark may be strong, but it is not proven fact. Personally, I think Taim is a bad guy.

Even if he isn't a Darkfriend or even a fanatical Darkfriend, he is Bad News for the forces of Light.  Especially because he is the commander of a couple hundred of the best trained killing machines.

I also think he is actually Mazrim Taim, cunningly disguised as Mazrim Taim. It's a brilliant plan. Who would ever expect the man of being himself?

Certainly few of the posters here.  ;D

[xander]

There is one thing I want to say about Friends of the Dark - as far as memory goes, in all of the Books we never had a single POV from a  Darkfriend that we didn't know was a Darkfriend at the time, and did not confirm him being a Darkfriend. I believe that motive is going to go on - it's pretty realistic and logical, considering the way Jordan structured his POVs. Viewing things from that perspective narrows the array of potential Darkfriends by a great margin, and I don't believe I'm wrong here. On the other hand, important characters whose POVs have been meticulously avoided thus far are up for grabs - Taim is a good example.

 

I think a good way to pick out the potential DF's would be to examine the reasoning behind several of the forsaken ditching the light.  It says several times throughout the series that so and so went dark because they were so jealous of LTT no matter how much praise and rewards he heaped upon them.  They hated him and most of their reasons were pretty much the same.  It seems immortality wasn't the main reason for several of these guys.  It was besting LTT in some way.  So, who is vain?  Who is greedy?  Who seems to be the one who would do anything in order to get what he/she wants?

[Luckers]

We already know there has been at least one Aiel DF, even though the leaders claimed they didn't have any.

 

The leaders never claimed anything of the sort. Shadowrunners are despised by Aiel, killed by first brothers or sisters, but they've never been denied. The only group to date who have denied the reality of darkfriends amongst their organisation are the Aiel.

 

 

[Hybrid]

We already know there has been at least one Aiel DF, even though the leaders claimed they didn't have any.

 

The leaders never claimed anything of the sort. Shadowrunners are despised by Aiel, killed by first brothers or sisters, but they've never been denied. The only group to date who have denied the reality of darkfriends amongst their organisation are the Aiel.

 

 

 

Hope I'm not being an idiot, but I don't understand your post, Luckers.  You seem to be contradicting yourself.  Could you explain this, please?  I think you might have meant the Aes Sedai, who denied the obvious existence of the Black Ajah until they could not any longer.

[Fryn]

We already know there has been at least one Aiel DF, even though the leaders claimed they didn't have any.

 

The leaders never claimed anything of the sort. Shadowrunners are despised by Aiel, killed by first brothers or sisters, but they've never been denied. The only group to date who have denied the reality of darkfriends amongst their organisation are the Aiel.

 

 

 

Hope I'm not being an idiot, but I don't understand your post, Luckers.  You seem to be contradicting yourself.  Could you explain this, please?  I think you might have meant the Aes Sedai, who denied the obvious existence of the Black Ajah until they could not any longer.

 

I'm pretty sure he meant the Aes Sedai like you said =). It looks like I'm due for a reread though... might as well wait until AMoL is due though.

 

As for Taim being a DF. You can also use the fact that it appeared he knew there was a forsaken in the Black Tower correct?

[Kaznen]

A week or two ago I was reading about the forsaken in the BWB.  When they talked about Grendal's sudden change....

 

I think her turning was forced.

[Luckers]

A week or two ago I was reading about the forsaken in the BWB.  When they talked about Grendal's sudden change....

 

I think her turning was forced.

 

Graendal joined the Shadow before Semirhage, and Semirhage was the one who came up with the method of forcibly turning channelers to the Shadow.

 

No, her change came from simple old fashioned identity crisis. She'd dedicated herself to an ideal that the rest of humanity proved unable to fulfil... so she gave it up. Besides, i have my doubts about how much of Graendal's hedonism is real, and how much is faked to make others dismiss her.

 

And sorry guys, yeah i meant the Aes Sedai.

 

As for Taim being a DF. You can also use the fact that it appeared he knew there was a forsaken in the Black Tower correct?

 

He didn't though. Indeed, he seemed honestly surprise about Dashiva's involvement in the attack on Rand, and actively sought to stop Rand taking Dashiva with him in the first place.

[benr]

I don't know - that whole thing when Rand chose Dashiva; if you look at it from the perspective of Taim at least suspecting, if not knowing, that Dashiva was more than he seemed, then his surprised and nervous reaction becomes more understandable.  Otherwise, why would he care?  He might have been nervous about how Dashiva would react to his failure to prevent it.

[Hybrid]

Far more likely, is that Taim wanted to plant one of Kisman, Gedwyn, Torval, or Rochaid on Rand.  This would give him better access to Rand, as well as a reliable spy.  It would also facilitate the future assassination attempt.

[benr]

I need to reread this; I'm not sure you are right (although you could be, of course).  Another thing - if Taim were an actual Chosen, wouldn't his presence have been required at the attack on the "Cleansing Team"?  Maybe his promotion came after that.

[Majsju]

Perhaps the DO wants to keep Taims promotion a secret. As long as he is in charge of the BT, he is far too useful working undercover to have him outed for a single operation that the old forsaken should have been able to handle on their own.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Going back to the Amys thing, I don't think anyone mentioned that at least one other person could have known about the attack: Somara, the guard at the door.  She is always following Rand around as his guard - the perfect place for a DF spy.

[Yiceman]

Somara's dead though, isn't she? For that point alone I don't think she's a darkfriend. I'm not sure about a big reveal saying "Hey remember that minor character who died four books ago? No? Well she was a darkfriend."

[GoldenK]

Somara's dead though, isn't she? For that point alone I don't think she's a darkfriend. I'm not sure about a big reveal saying "Hey remember that minor character who died four books ago? No? Well she was a darkfriend."

yeah, but, she was with rand almost wherever he went, she was in Caemlyn when Asmodean died, if she's a darkfriend, she might have reason to kill him, lol :P

 

she was a major-minor character, till she died

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Yeah, she died in the Renegade AM attack on the Royal Palace in Cairhien.  Enaila, who was often paired with Somara, is still alive though (I think).  Is it too much of a stretch to think that Enaila was also at the door to the meeting?

[Thor]

if amys is df, i want rhuarc to kill her.

[Seaine Sedai]

Yet, the next morning, when Nynaeve captures her, Moghedien knows exactly what Rand is up to.  How?

 

Whoa, you know I never actually thought about this, but it's true.  It also kind of blows my "Graendal didn't do it [kill Asmo] because how in the pit of doom could she possibly know Rand was going to be in Caemlyn on that day ANYWAY" theory out of water.  If Moggy knew, then I guess it's possible Graendal could know too.  *grumblgrumbleIreallydon'twantGraendaltobetheonewhodiditgrumble*

[OptimusPrime]

As for Taim being a DF. You can also use the fact that it appeared he knew there was a forsaken in the Black Tower correct?

 

He didn't though. Indeed, he seemed honestly surprise about Dashiva's involvement in the attack on Rand, and actively sought to stop Rand taking Dashiva with him in the first place.

 

 

I disagree. First Taim tries convincing Rand not to take a Forsaken with him, then acts surprised when that same Forsaken tried breaking the no-kill rule. I think Taim knew Dashiva all along. He might not have known it was Aginor but I definitely think he knew Dashiva was Chosen. Taim also seemed genuinely concerned for Rand when he started acting wired when Taim was first introduced. Do you think that concern was as genuine as it looked? I dont.

 

I hate this quoting system sometimes.

[Blackhoof]

I'm not sure if it is possible to tell if someone is honestly surprised or concerned in a book. But i think that it is likely that Taim is a DF, the way he runs the BT, and his 'secret circle', just reeks of DF'ness. But he could just be a really big jerk.

[Manjunathan]

I'm not sure if it is possible to tell if someone is honestly surprised or concerned in a book. But i think that it is likely that Taim is a DF, the way he runs the BT, and his 'secret circle', just reeks of DF'ness. But he could just be a really big jerk.

Yeah. And also because of what he says to Pevara in the end of KoD "Let the Lord of Chaos rule"