More powerful than the sword that cannot be touched...

[Nateku]

In TSR, there was a line that caught my eye. Lanfear is talking to Rand and Callandor comes up. Well, here's the line.

 

""I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far---and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. ..." (Pg 182, TSR)

 

So yeah, Callandor is a very strong sa'angreal, but here Lanfear mentions two male ones that are even more powerful. Obviously the male choeden kal is one, I'm assuming the one whose existence she can confirm, but I was absolutely stumped when thinking of the second one. I know I haven't read all the books in awhile, but I can't recall a second sa'angreal that is more powerful than Callandor. Did anyone else notice this, or is the answer very obvious? Thanks in advance.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The other she referred to was the female Choeden Kal

[RAND AL THOR]

The other she referred to was the female Choeden Kal

 

yup

[balefire]

I dont think so guys. She's saying, there are only two stronger that a MAN can use. One is the male half of the cheoden kal and other is unknown as far as we know. Rand can only use the female half of the cheoden kal while linked with a very strong female channeler only, so i doubt it counts.

[MystErikEry]

"That a man can use" ?  A man can use the female Choeden Kal?  Unlikely.

 

There could very well be another sa'angreal for men aside from Callandor, but it could very well have been destroyed in the Breaking.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

"That a man can use" ?  A man can use the female Choeden Kal?  Unlikely.

 

There could very well be another sa'angreal for men aside from Callandor, but it could very well have been destroyed in the Breaking

UNQUOTE

 

Dude, you misunderstood. The first one more powerful than Callandor is the Male Choeden Kal. And the second was the female. Lanfear wasn't talking about sa'angreal that only men could use; she was talking about her and Rand using them together, she didnt specify whether it was for male or female. Her and Rand were going to link, Rand using the male Choeden Kal and Lanfear using the female Choeden Kal. She didnt mention male/female restrictions because they were to link while using them. If they linked with Rand in control, he could draw from the female Choeden Kal through Lanfear via the link, hence there being no issues on the gender restriction. We have seen Rand do that at the Cleansing when Nynaeve used the female Choeden Kal and Rand used it through her.

[Asmo]

Lanfear was specifically talking about saidin-attuned sa'angreal. One was the male Choedan Kal buried in Cairhien, and the one Lanfear was certain still existed. The other one could have been basically anything. I speculate it was the Eye of the World, but that was more likely a Well. That aside, we don't have any information on the subject.

[RAND AL THOR]

Error on my part. The quote is below

THe Shadow Rising page182

 

Lanfear:

 

"There are only two more powerful that a man can use.One, at least, I know still exists."

 

There you have it. The thread's original question stands. There are TWO that a MAN can use. One is the Choden Kal. The other, I think, we have not been introduced to yet. Lanfear suggests that it may no longer exist.

[Razor]

But if it exists, LTT would know what is was/is.

[RAND AL THOR]

He may know. If Rand questioned him about any other powerful sa angreal he may have got an answer. LTT isn't likely to just talk about it without any provocation.

 

Also, no other channeler has mentioned such a thing-including the Forsaken. If it was still around, you would expect them to seek out right? They NEVER mention it even from their POV (exception lanfear lol). This suggests that whatever it was no longer exists.

 

THe Pool of Saidin in EOTW doesn't count. It was not a sa'angreal.

[Bob T Dwarf]

My suggestion for the other has always been the Ring of Tamyrlin.

 

The very first angreal of any type created.  Made by the very first person to successfully learn to channel.  A person whose gender is uncertain.

 

Why would that be?  It should be pretty simple to determine the gender of someone from the things he or she left behind, if nothing else.

 

My suggestion for that is that the Ring is the major thing that remains of Tamyrlin.  And, that said Ring has been proven to be usable by both male and female channelers in the many centuries since Tamyrlin's death.

 

I also suggest that the Ring still exists and is, in fact, the small, plain band that Graendal now wears on her little finger.  Jordan drew our attention to it twice.  First when Graendal found it among Sam's stash, and was amazed to find something attuned to a female, and second when Demandred notes it at a kaffe klatsch.  With the author trying to make sure we notice it, it must be something more than it appears.

[DemandredFO]

The Ring of Tamarlyn theory has been brought up before but men and women were the Tamarlyn so I don't think that would be a male sa'angreal.  As far as we know the other one is lost/destroyed.  We've seen Bayle Doman has an angreal but as far as I know we've seen only four male objects of the power:  Bayle's angreal, the fat man angreal, the male Cheodan Kal and Callandor.

[Mr Ares]

The Ring of Tamarlyn theory has been brought up before but men and women were the Tamarlyn so I don't think that would be a male sa'angreal.

Tamyrlin was a person, not a position. Secondly, the theory goes that it is a sa'angreal usable by both genders - as was stated in Bob's post. However, the Ring was an object of the One Power - not necessarily an angreal or sa'angreal. It is plausible that it was a ter'angreal usable by both genders. Or by people who can't channel. Or just a ring made with the Power. Further, the Ring of Tamyrlin was worn by the head of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. It is quite possible that one of the Chosen had seen it before, and would know what it was. I find the suggestion that it is Graendal's ring unlikely.

[RAND AL THOR]

Where does the info about this Tamyrlin and all that originate? I've heard of something called the white book (no idea what that is). Is it from there?

[Mr Ares]

In the Prologue to EotW, Ishamael tells Lews Therin that he "wore the ring of Tamyrlin". In the expanded glossary of To the Blight, it tells us that Tamyrlin was supposedly the first channeler, and the the Ring of Tamyrlin was something he made. It is not stated to be an angreal or sa'angreal. The "white book" is the World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, usually called the Big White Book (because when first published that's exactly what it was), or just BWB. 'Tis apparently a source of much useful information.

[RAND AL THOR]

Thank you for that info.

 

Doesn't it seem unlikely that the first power-related object ever made could have survived this long? If it really was the first one made, it would be an experimental and trial object- not likely to be one of the most powerful in the world, I'd say.

[Luckers]

On the second sa'angreal (other than the Choedan Kal) it seems likely it was destroyed during the early years of the breaking as were most angreal and sa'angreal attuned to men. Certainly we've never heard it referenced.

 

As for the ring of Tamyrlin--its unlikely it was a sa'angreal. Aside from the implausibility of dual sex sa'angreal in direct opposition of everything we know about the One Power and sa'angreal, the simple reality is that the role of the First Amongst Servants was a political one, and rank in the Age of Legends had nothing to do with strength in the Power--that they would mark their leader by giving him a sa'angreal is very unlikely. It may be a ter'angreal of some form, but it being either an angreal or sa'angreal....

 

And Mr Ares, the ring was rumoured to be an object of the Power, it wasn't known for sure.

[DemandredFO]

Is it possible that the sa'angreal still exists?  I just ask because the most powerful(the male Cheodan Kal) and the 3rd most powerful(Callandor) still exist?

[Luckers]

Both were specifically secured. The rest of the male angreal and sa'angreal were intentionally destroyed. So i think it unlikely. Still, it is possible.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Kinda depends on how you think Jordan's mind worked.

 

There's already plenty of obscure and confusing stuff in the books.  He could have chosen to have Lanfear say anything.  He chose to have her mention two objects of power usable by a male that would be more powerful than Callandor.

 

Now, did he do that just to throw out a red herring?  Or, did he do it to let us know that there was yet one more goody left to be found?

 

My bet is that he did it to let us know that there was still something of great power out there.  Something that could prove pivotal in the Final Battle.

 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I'll stick with that.

[bRANDan]

I'd like to see the sa'angreal in question in Moridin's posession. We know he had at least one stasis box filled with zomara (spelling? Those mind reading servants). He might have prepared for the worst in the AoL and left himself a few stasis boxes.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Unlikely.

 

One thing that was clearly established in the early books was that none of them had any angreal, ter'angreal, or sa'angreal.  None of the stasis boxes contained anything very worthwhile.  One thing all of the Forsaken were busily doing was trying to find any that may have survived.

 

Sam was the only one to do so.  Rand may have gotten part of his stash.  Graendal got the rest.

[DemandredFO]

The Gholam was pretty worthwhile, as to how they got it in the stasis box I have no idea.

[Ndshacker]

Yes they say that they dont have any 'greal but dontthey have reason to lie? I mean, If i was bent on power and possibly a little insane, I wouldn't want everyone knowing that I have something that makes me stronger than them.

[balefireruinssteaks]

The Ring of Tamyrlin seems to me to be something more than just a political symbol, like a crown or something.  I think that it was a ter'angreal, possibly a sa'angreal although the making of angreal suggests that angreal/sa'angreal that were useable by men and women were rare.  Several times we hear "it is said that there are angreal that can be used by both men and women" so I always wonder if that's a hint toward the Ring...

 

and giving the person in charge a sa'angreal is not entirely out of context.  Remember that the Age of Legends was an enlightened age where the idea of "corrupted power" didn't really exist.  The only frustrations were that the limitations of using saidin/saidar were hindering discoveries that could help society and your fellow person.  Remember that a person gained rank and position in that society by what they could offer for the benefit of mankind.  The Aiel were highly respected for their services to Aes Sedai and society.  It was different than this age where giving someone an object that would make them able to channel super powerfully would be next to insane.

 

I doubt highly if the ring Graendal has is the Ring of Tamyrlin only because she would have mentioned it and if Sammael had of seen the ring he would not have just left it there lying about so she could take it.  Likely he did not recognize it as an angreal attuned to women and just thought it was a trinket.  when Graendal found it she figured out it was an angreal (which might suggest that she herself knows the making of angreal or at least the concepts) and took it.