Through a glass, darkly

[benr]

Did Lanfear and Moiraine get to make their deals after they went through the doorway?  What were they?

[Mr Ares]

Did Lanfear and Moiraine get to make their deals after they went through the doorway?  What were they?

We have no evidence suggesting that they were allowed to make deals. Given the nature of their arrival (destroying the doorway, and there was fire on one side at least) it seems unlikely that they would be given such an opportunity.

[leo]

Why unlikely?  There were no rules about destroying the doors.  The only rules that we know of for the Foxes are the "no instrument, no fire, no iron" bit. 

 

Just because there was fire on the outside doesn't mean there was on the inside.

[benr]

Oh, come on folks.  Whether it's likely or unlikely that they get to deal with the Foxes, it would be great to see some ideas for what they deal for.  FI:  Would Moiraine save one to get Mat, Thom, Noam, and her out of the tower?

[bjclinton]

Oh, come on folks.  Whether it's likely or unlikely that they get to deal with the Foxes, it would be great to see some ideas for what they deal for.  FI:  Would Moiraine save one to get Mat, Thom, Noam, and her out of the tower?

 

.....well, you're original topic was "did they get a chance to make a deal"

 

sounds like you should change the topic to "what do you think they would have asked for if they could?"

;D

 

 

[benr]

Well, the second part of the topic was "what were they?"  We can all multi-task here.

[Luckers]

Like Ares I find it incredibly unlikely they were offered any wishes. For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

 

 

As for what they might have asked for...? *shrug*

[benr]

Luckers:

 

They aren't wishes, they are bargains.  You give the Foxes very human traits in your reasoning of why they wouldn't have held to their compact.  They reacted to Mat in a very greedy way; they couldn't resist when he thought he was just asking questions, instead of entering a bargain.  To attribute such a market driven explanation of this situation is far fetched.  Moiraine, and maybe Lanfear, would know the nature of the place they were.  I contend that the mere act of requesting the bargain would obligate the Foxes to honor it.  As we know, payment isn't always what we think.   

 

I agree that they would have been angry at Moiraine's and Lanfears entrance; I also don't know for sure that the fire occured on both sides - but I agree that is likely.  This means that this could be their last chance to receive payment for bargains.  The Shadow prohibition was with the Snakes, but could have also included the Foxes.  Don't know. 

 

How long was Lanfear kept captive before she was killed?  Why was she killed?  Did they inherently know she was of the shadow?  Or did she try to bargain her way out, revealing her attachment to the Dark?

Perhaps Moiraine is content to just sit there, knowing her rescue is coming.  That isn't necessarily against her will.  How much time will the rescue take?  Is the flow of time the same?  How is she cared for in the interum?  As for what the ladies asked for...it could turn out to be very important.     

 

 

[Luckers]

They aren't wishes, they are bargains.  You give the Foxes very human traits in your reasoning of why they wouldn't have held to their compact.  They reacted to Mat in a very greedy way; they couldn't resist when he thought he was just asking questions, instead of entering a bargain.  To attribute such a market driven explanation of this situation is far fetched.  Moiraine, and maybe Lanfear, would know the nature of the place they were.  I contend that the mere act of requesting the bargain would obligate the Foxes to honor it.  As we know, payment isn't always what we think.   

 

I agree that they would have been angry at Moiraine's and Lanfears entrance; I also don't know for sure that the fire occured on both sides - but I agree that is likely.  This means that this could be their last chance to receive payment for bargains.  The Shadow prohibition was with the Snakes, but could have also included the Foxes.  Don't know.

 

Except that they already had everything Moiraine and Lanfear had to give. Their emotions, their experiences--as well as all their wordly possessions. They held both--Cyndane's thoughts and Moiraine's letter makes that clear. They were prisoners. You don't trade with prisoners, you confiscate--especially since both broke the treaty, if not through the fire then through the simple destruction of the door.

 

No, the Finns would not have been willing to bargain with Lanfear or Moiraine.

 

 

[cloglord]

Except that they already had everything Moiraine and Lanfear had to give. Their emotions, their experiences--as well as all their wordly possessions. They held both--Cyndane's thoughts and Moiraine's letter makes that clear. They were prisoners. You don't trade with prisoners, you confiscate--especially since both broke the treaty, if not through the fire then through the simple destruction of the door.

 

No, the Finns would not have been willing to bargain with Lanfear or Moiraine.

 

They did not have everything that Moraine and Lanfear had to give.  If it were that simple for the finns to take whatever they desired from a visitor, then under what inducement would the finns have ever entered into a treaty in the first place?  Secondly Moraine's letter does not make it clear that she is being held, it only makes clear that she is alive.  Considering that Mat, Noal, and Thom are soon going to be operating in the finn world with a certain degree of autonomy, it is not impossible that Moraine has spent the intervening time on the lamb in finnland, and not held captive per se. 

 

Third, we do not know that either of them broke the treaty.  Simply we do not know anything about the treaty other than the prohibitions on fire and iron and song.  Since you can not prove that any action of either Lanfear or Moraine caused a fire on the Finn side, you can not prove that either woman broke any known stricture of the treaty.

 

It is a reasonable assumption to say that the finn would not be happy about the destruction of the doorway.  However, you can not reasonably assume any of the circumstances that derive from that occurance, with the one exception of the fact that Cyandane recalls being held.  With that said, it is not a certain thing that Cyandane is held because of her role in the destruction of the doorway.  Further you can not assume that the finn would blame both Lanfear and Moraine equally.  You yourself pointed out that Lanfear would have immediately been on the wrong side of the finns by virtue of her affiliation with the shadow. 

 

I'll reiterate what Benr said in regards to chances for trade as well.  As upset as the finns might have been at the destruction of the door, they also appear to be very greedy when it comes to getting what they want.  Lanfear and Moraine would have undoubtedly represented the very last chance to make a deal.

 

With all that said, I do not know if either woman was given the opportunity to make a deal with the finns.  I just don't think it is as unlikely as Luckers does.

[Luckers]

They did not have everything that Moraine and Lanfear had to give.  If it were that simple for the finns to take whatever they desired from a visitor, then under what inducement would the finns have ever entered into a treaty in the first place?

 

The same reason anyone trades. If they took whatever they wanted, then no one would enter the doorways. They get the first shipment for nothing, but thats where it ends. You ask what inducement they had to enter the treaty in the first place, and thats it--they want what the humans have to give, but unless the humans are coming they won't get it, and the humans won't come unless they are getting something in return.

 

That no longer applies. The route to trade was destroyed, no more are coming. Moreover that action is more than enough reason to hold the two--even if they did look forward to the time where they might reconnect with the human world, they wouldn't stay their hand, because they had justification--and before you leap on that, we know that they arn't little scardy-cats. They won't simply steal from everyone, but they will act if the humans overstep themselves. They've killed humans who have come to them before, even driven them insane. They have precedent to know that more still come.

 

Secondly Moraine's letter does not make it clear that she is being held, it only makes clear that she is alive.  Considering that Mat, Noal, and Thom are soon going to be operating in the finn world with a certain degree of autonomy, it is not impossible that Moraine has spent the intervening time on the lamb in finnland, and not held captive per se. 

 

So you've said before, but its moot--Moiraine makes clear the dangers, she sees the possibility of all of them dying, herself included. Ergo whatever degree of captivity, the negative position of the Finns towards her means not bargaining.

 

It is a reasonable assumption to say that the finn would not be happy about the destruction of the doorway.  However, you can not reasonably assume any of the circumstances that derive from that occurance, with the one exception of the fact that Cyandane recalls being held.  With that said, it is not a certain thing that Cyandane is held because of her role in the destruction of the doorway.  Further you can not assume that the finn would blame both Lanfear and Moraine equally.  You yourself pointed out that Lanfear would have immediately been on the wrong side of the finns by virtue of her affiliation with the shadow. 

 

Which may be the cause Lanfear got so very very dead, whilst Moiraine was kept alive. Irrespective, whilst you are correct that they may have been differences the degree of blame given to each woman, they still reacted to Moiraine with negativity. Potentially lethal negativity. They may not blame them equally, but they still blamed her.

 

I'll reiterate what Benr said in regards to chances for trade as well.  As upset as the finns might have been at the destruction of the door, they also appear to be very greedy when it comes to getting what they want.  Lanfear and Moraine would have undoubtedly represented the very last chance to make a deal.

 

Greedy, amoral creatures who have nothing more to gain by not taking everything. With nothing more to gain, there is no reason for them to give anything. Basic idea of trade there.

 

 

[cloglord]

So you've said before, but its moot--Moiraine makes clear the dangers, she sees the possibility of all of them dying, herself included. Ergo whatever degree of captivity, the negative position of the Finns towards her means not bargaining.

 

No it doesn't.  You could say that Mat was put in a negative position relative to the finns, but only after the bargain was completed.  The fact that Moraine does not seem able to extricate herself from finnland does not imply anything about the nature of her captivity, or the willingness of the finns to deal with her.

 

Which may be the cause Lanfear got so very very dead, whilst Moiraine was kept alive. Irrespective, whilst you are correct that they may have been differences the degree of blame given to each woman, they still reacted to Moiraine with negativity. Potentially lethal negativity. They may not blame them equally, but they still blamed her.

 

First we do not know to what extent or for what reason they did react negatively to Moraine.  We know from Mat's encounter that they need no justification at all to react negatively to a bargainer once a bargain has been struck.  Secondly, there was never the possibility that the the finns would react in a lethal manner, that is one of the few things that Moraine's letter makes clear.  Moraine's inability to return to Randland is simply not an indicator that the finns held her liable for anything.  It is their nature to treat humans poorly.

 

Greedy, amoral creatures who have nothing more to gain by not taking everything. With nothing more to gain, there is no reason for them to give anything. Basic idea of trade there.

 

By that logic Moraine would be as dead as Lanfear, and there would be two new human skin harnesses running around finnland.  Since Moraine is still alive, I believe that there is more at work here than vigilante justice.

 

[Luckers]

No it doesn't.  You could say that Mat was put in a negative position relative to the finns, but only after the bargain was completed.  The fact that Moraine does not seem able to extricate herself from finnland does not imply anything about the nature of her captivity, or the willingness of the finns to deal with her.

 

You could more than say it, and like Moiraine it stems from the fact that he offered nothing in return--but Moiraine did not just not offer anything in return, she ended the possibility of them ever gaining anything again. Both are held in negativity, but the spicific context changes the degree to which the Finns exercise their fury. Mat they harm but return with everything he asked for, a warning to future traders whilst still permiting trade. There will be no future traders after Moiraine, end of story. And Moiraine is more than simply unable to extricate herself, she is at risk for her life, and that does speak to the nature of her captivity and the Finn's willingness to deal with her.

 

First we do not know to what extent or for what reason they did react negatively to Moraine.  We know from Mat's encounter that they need no justification at all to react negatively to a bargainer once a bargain has been struck.  Secondly, there was never the possibility that the the finns would react in a lethal manner, that is one of the few things that Moraine's letter makes clear.  Moraine's inability to return to Randland is simply not an indicator that the finns held her liable for anything.  It is their nature to treat humans poorly.

 

They reacted negatively to mat because he did not pay them. They protected their interests in trade by returning him, and granting him what he asked for, showing their willingness to abide by the treaty, but hung from a tree stating what happens when humans do not fulfil their side. It was not a result of their inner cantankerousness, not a result of their 'nature'. Indeed, in returning mat and giving him what he asked, they were constraining of their natural anger in order to protect future trade. With Moiraine they have no trade interests to protect, thus no reason to restrain their anger at all. And once again, Moiraine's letter states that her life is at risk from the Finns. Her knowledge only showed that they would not kill her out of hand.

 

By that logic Moraine would be as dead as Lanfear, and there would be two new human skin harnesses running around finnland.  Since Moraine is still alive, I believe that there is more at work here than vigilante justice.

 

Firstly, it would not be vigilante justice. They are the authority in their land, and action taken by them would therefore be just normal justice. And as for the point, Lanfear is not killed out of hand either. It's only after a time that she ended up dead, and we don't even know that it was the Finns that killed her.

 

So, for whatever reason they did not simply kill either woman out of hand, but it was not because they wanted to trade with them--my guess its because they foresaw that if Moiraine were still alive someone would come after her with something they wanted. A possible connection to Mat giving up his eye. But she would still only be bait.

[dlan4327]

I assumed that they definitely broke the covenant in the sense that they would have been hurling fire six ways from Sunday in an effort to destroy each other.

[benr]

1. While Lanfear may have been trying to destroy Moiraine, it is by no means certain that Moiraine was also trying to destroy Lanfear.  This may be why Lanfear was held more responsible, if she was.  More likely, she was killed for her association with the Shadow.  This leads back to my questions:  How did they know she was Dark?  How long was Lanfear held before she was killed? 

 

2. Mat paid with his emotions, as did all fo those that bargained.  his problem wasn't that he didn't pay, but that he didn't kow that he was bargaining.  This is what the Finns took advantage of.  Those that were driven insane or killed broke the covenant in one way or another.  Mat just made a bad bargain.  Moiraine knows the situation; she'll be able to make her bargain.

 

3. The bargain isn't necessarily over forever; a new doorway could be made (maybe by the Finns, or by Elayne, or by both).  The Finns have that as incentive to perhaps be holding Moiraine for "ransom".  Since it seems clear that Mat, Thom, and Noal will be entering throught the Tower, not the doorway, will they be able to get their bargains (except for Mat, who is back for the second time)?

 

Remember, you have to cheat to win at Snakes and Foxes.

[Luckers]

1. While Lanfear may have been trying to destroy Moiraine, it is by no means certain that Moiraine was also trying to destroy Lanfear.  This may be why Lanfear was held more responsible, if she was.  More likely, she was killed for her association with the Shadow.  This leads back to my questions:  How did they know she was Dark?  How long was Lanfear held before she was killed? 

 

In truth we don't even know they killed Lanfear--and we don't know that Lanfear was treated more harshly. We know that both were treated negatively, and thats about it.

 

But as to how they might have sensed that she was dark--the finns siphon experience and memory. Lanfear's memories would be pretty explicit. And we don't know how long she was held, jut that she was held.

 

3. The bargain isn't necessarily over forever; a new doorway could be made (maybe by the Finns, or by Elayne, or by both).  The Finns have that as incentive to perhaps be holding Moiraine for "ransom".  Since it seems clear that Mat, Thom, and Noal will be entering throught the Tower, not the doorway, will they be able to get their bargains (except for Mat, who is back for the second time)?

 

The bargains were something specific to the doorways and the agreement. The finn still have the ability, so its possible that the three to enter might be able to reach some form of bargain--but it would be a completely new thing unrelated to the Agreement.

[Lille]

In all threads regarding the 'finns everyone seems to assume they hate the Dark. I have seen no indication of this, the only thing we know is that questions regarding the Shadow are dangerous(which i believe is said by Moiraine?). And i have always thought that to be because they dont know what will happen regarding the Shadow, the Dark One has his hand on the Pattern, changing it, and they don't know what he will do.

[Asmo]

We don't know whether the Finns hate the Shadow. All we know is that the questions concerning it are dangerous to ask - why is anyone's guess. It may be that the Finn world has some connection to the Bore similar to Shayol Ghul, or any other of a million reasons. And don't we see Slayer go in the Tower of Ghenjei? (I don't recall very clearly, but I think that was what happened). At any rate, provided they could get what they wanted out of Lanfear, I doubt they'd have treated her differently because she was one of the Forsaken. What we know is that both Lanfear and Moiraine were held against their will, and Lanfear was killed. This also implies that both Lanfear and Moiraine were stilled in the Finn world. Rand conjured a fire sword in the Finn realm and the Finns couldn't do a thing about it, so if Moiraine and Lanfear could access the True Source, they could easily subjugate the Finns or frighten them away. If they were severed, which is very likely, it also happened upon their entrance to the Finn world - we see Lan's reaction to Moiraine's disappearance, where he is certain she is dead, but we find out later that she isn't dead, and stilling produces pretty much the same effect to the Warder bond. So their stilling was not a part of the bargain. I don't think Moiraine and Lanfear even attempted to ask for favors - it would be the last thing on their minds right then, and upon being captured, they would have no chance to do it. If they did, they would be out by now - we see that the Finns cannot hold someone against their will if he asks as a part of the bargain, such as Mat. Of course, the way out was destroyed, but there's always the other gateway or the Tower of Ghenjei. So they didn't ask, because they couldn't ask. Like Luckers said, the doorway was ruined, so the influx of travellers into their world was expected to be reduced. Therefore, they would have cause to keep whoever was inside for as long as possible. Lanfear probably made the wise choice, commiting suicide so that she may be revived by the Dark One.

 

What they would ask:

 

Moiraine:

1) To be un-stilled (which may or may not have happened)

2) Lanfear to die (which happened)

3) Someone to appear who can guide and help Rand (Cadsuane)

 

Lanfear:

1) To be un-stilled (which didn't happen, since she appears to be Healed by a woman using Nynaeve's method)

2) To kill Asmodean (he would be a dangerous asset now that he was out of her control, especially if the shield didn't hold. It happened)

3) To get the hell out of there

 

But, I don't think they got a chance to ask.

1) To kill Asmodean (he was

[benr]

Asmo - thanks.  Good information, not just a rehash. I remember the Luc thing, too.  I think it was when Perrin was following Luc in TAR, and he was warned not to follow.  The Finns seem neutral in the battle of the Light vs Dark (thanks, Lille).  If Lanfear and Moiraine were severed, perhaps it wasn't intentional. It is perhaps intentional that Moiraine is still there; she may have seen it as essential that she stay until rescued for Rand to win at TG, during her time at Rhuidian.  As for the doorway being destroyed, reducing the influx of visitors - it was in Rhuidian; no one was using it anyways.

 

Lanfear could very well have worded her "bargain" wrong; asking to have her power restored, but not specifying full power.  She gets what she bargained for, but not exactly what she wanted, which we know is the Finns' modus operandi.  Killing Asmo; that's good.  She has previously stated that she would like to do that, to Rand (have Asmo train Rand, then take him out); it would give us an assassin with motive, opportunity, prior consideration of the event, and explain the "You..NO!" part.

 

This all seems pretty logical, and supported by events. 

 

 

[Luckers]

Mmm. Suggesting that they hate the shadow is unlikely, but they have displayed a certain degree of distaste. Which makes sense, if the Dark One escapes they lose as much as anyone else does, and since they seemingly have a very high degree of self-interest....

 

Asmo we do see Slayer enter the Tower of Genjei, but in TAR so we don't know if he had any actual interaction with the finns within, or if indeed he entered the Finn realm. the Tower itself is the way, not the place.

 

This also implies that both Lanfear and Moiraine were stilled in the Finn world.

 

Indeed, given that they fell through a ter'angreal that subsequently destroyed itself whilst channeling wildly and traveling to a dimension with distinctly different physical laws... yes its very likely they were burned out. Especially when, as you raise, Lan's bond snaps and Lanfear reapears later at a reduced strength, both things that can only occur when a person is severed (or killed, in the bonds case, but we know thats not the case).

 

Lanfear could very well have worded her "bargain" wrong; asking to have her power restored, but not specifying full power.  She gets what she bargained for, but not exactly what she wanted, which we know is the Finns' modus operandi.  Killing Asmo; that's good.  She has previously stated that she would like to do that, to Rand (have Asmo train Rand, then take him out); it would give us an assassin with motive, opportunity, prior consideration of the event, and explain the "You..NO!" part.

 

This all seems pretty logical, and supported by events. 

 

Well no, we have no support that the Finns can restore the ability to channel, and its completely illogical for the finns to grant any sort of bargain--especially a restoration of power that would make her dangerous to them. Furthermore Lanfear was held for a time and Asmodean died less than six hours after she disapeard, so the 'you... no!' does not make sense, and were she to ask for a death, it would be Rand.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

A couple of minor points...

 

There is still the possibility of trade.  Yes, the doorway was destroyed, but the Tower of Ghenjei still exists.  The doorway hadn't been used for thousands of years anyway.

 

They might indeed take whatever they wanted without fearing loss of trade.  Humans are illogical creatures.  Nobody has ever returned from trying to ascend Dragonmount, but there is always somebody who is willing to try.  Bad things are only ever going to happen to somebody else... I, of course, and only naturally considering my special status as the Creator's Own Most Favored Person, will be stronger, faster, smarter than anyone they've ever encountered before and be able to, not merely survive, but profit from visiting them... no matter what they've done to everybody else.  ( That's fairly close to what anyone who had actually visited them would believe - see what I mean about illogical )

 

Mat DID pay them.  He paid as he did because he was ignorant of fact that he was bargaining for those wishes, thus allowing them to exact their own price.

[benr]

Mmm. Suggesting that they hate the shadow is unlikely, but they have displayed a certain degree of distaste. Which makes sense, if the Dark One escapes they lose as much as anyone else does, and since they seemingly have a very high degree of self-interest....

 

Asmo we do see Slayer enter the Tower of Genjei, but in TAR so we don't know if he had any actual interaction with the finns within, or if indeed he entered the Finn realm. the Tower itself is the way, not the place.

 

This also implies that both Lanfear and Moiraine were stilled in the Finn world.

 

Indeed, given that they fell through a ter'angreal that subsequently destroyed itself whilst channeling wildly and traveling to a dimension with distinctly different physical laws... yes its very likely they were burned out. Especially when, as you raise, Lan's bond snaps and Lanfear reapears later at a reduced strength, both things that can only occur when a person is severed (or killed, in the bonds case, but we know thats not the case).

 

Lanfear could very well have worded her "bargain" wrong; asking to have her power restored, but not specifying full power.  She gets what she bargained for, but not exactly what she wanted, which we know is the Finns' modus operandi.  Killing Asmo; that's good.  She has previously stated that she would like to do that, to Rand (have Asmo train Rand, then take him out); it would give us an assassin with motive, opportunity, prior consideration of the event, and explain the "You..NO!" part.

 

This all seems pretty logical, and supported by events. 

 

Well no, we have no support that the Finns can restore the ability to channel, and its completely illogical for the finns to grant any sort of bargain--especially a restoration of power that would make her dangerous to them. Furthermore Lanfear was held for a time and Asmodean died less than six hours after she disapeard, so the 'you... no!' does not make sense, and were she to ask for a death, it would be Rand.

 

 

1. The Finns grant requests.  They filled Mat's memory with those of probably hundreds of great war commanders.  The chances that any of these went through the doorframe to the Finns so their memories could be recorded is slim to none, the chances that more than one went is none...the doorframe has been "rotting" in Rhuidian for thousands of years.  This is an amazing thing to do - from that, I think the Finns could restore Lanfear's ability to channel.  It actually sounds easier to me.

 

2. The Finns are neutral, they may not view Lanfear as a threat; and the restoration of power need not be accomplished while Lanfear was held captive by the Finns.  Aside from the fact that time would most likely flow differently in Finn-land, if Lanfear were held for 5 hours and 59 minutes - plenty of time to reach her bargains - and then she were placed with Asmo, then this is possible.  The fact is, Lanfear has threatened to kill Asmo after he helps Rand - not in a POV, but to Rand's face.

 

3. Thanks!  I knew you could come up with at least one possible request for Lanfear! ;D  Yes, she could very well ask for Rand's death - that would be an easy one for the Finns to grant, since it is very possible that he will die at SG.  It doesn't preclude her also asking for Asmo's death, too, though - and still leaves her one.  Personally, I think that she would ask to kill Rand herself; watch out for Cyndane at TG.

 

Unfortunately, this leads me to my own analysis of this after my last post.  If Lanfear were sent to kill Asmo, how was she killed and reincarnated as Cyndane?  This would mean that the Finns didn't do the deed themselves; leading to another mystery.  It gets complicateder and complicateder...which usually means that the original assumption is wrong.  Back to Graendal.

[Mr Ares]

1. The Finns grant requests. They filled Mat's memory with those of probably hundreds of great war commanders. The chances that any of these went through the doorframe to the Finns so their memories could be recorded is slim to none, the chances that more than one went is none...the doorframe has been "rotting" in Rhuidian for thousands of years. This is an amazing thing to do - from that, I think the Finns could restore Lanfear's ability to channel. It actually sounds easier to me.

The memories came from those who went through the ToG, as well as the doorways (both of them). And the Eelfinn's powers cannot affect the outside world at all. We have no evidence they are capable of affecting peoples ability to channel in any way, shape or form. Your opinion of whether or not Healing is easier than taking memories isn't really relevant. You have absolutely no evidence suggesting one is even possible, and enough suggesting the other is.

 

2. The Finns are neutral

Are they?

The fact is, Lanfear has threatened to kill Asmo after he helps Rand - not in a POV, but to Rand's face.

Circumstances change. Rand is at the top of the hitlist. Asmo is an irrelevance.

[Majsju]

We do not see Slayer enter the Tower. We see him disappear in front of it. For all we know, he could just have tried to trick Perrin into entering a place almost impossible to leave, while Slayer himself stepped out of the dream, or went to some other place in T'A'R. After all, if there was a connection between Slayer and the Finns, why allow an enemy like Perrin to learn about that?

 

 

[benr]

1. The Finns grant requests. They filled Mat's memory with those of probably hundreds of great war commanders. The chances that any of these went through the doorframe to the Finns so their memories could be recorded is slim to none, the chances that more than one went is none...the doorframe has been "rotting" in Rhuidian for thousands of years. This is an amazing thing to do - from that, I think the Finns could restore Lanfear's ability to channel. It actually sounds easier to me.

The memories came from those who went through the ToG, as well as the doorways (both of them). And the Eelfinn's powers cannot affect the outside world at all. We have no evidence they are capable of affecting peoples ability to channel in any way, shape or form. Your opinion of whether or not Healing is easier than taking memories isn't really relevant. You have absolutely no evidence suggesting one is even possible, and enough suggesting the other is.

 

2. The Finns are neutral

Are they?

The fact is, Lanfear has threatened to kill Asmo after he helps Rand - not in a POV, but to Rand's face.

Circumstances change. Rand is at the top of the hitlist. Asmo is an irrelevance.

 

1. And what evidence do you have that the memories were from those that went throught the ToG or the doorways? 

 

2. Correct.  We don't know.  Maybe they favor the Shadow.

 

3. The circumstances have certainly changed now.  At the time, Asmo wasn't irrelevant.  Lanfear's block on Asmo was weakening.  He was no longer tied to the DO.  He was becoming more of a threat to Lanfear with each passing day, since he certainly blamed her for his predicament.

 

Good point on Slayer, Majsju.  I hadn't gone back to re-read that, simply relying on my recollection.  Sometimes we see what we want to see, not what is there.