Through a glass, darkly

[Mr Ares]

1. And what evidence do you have that the memories were from those that went throught the ToG or the doorways?

Simple. Unlike some people, I have been known to read what the author wrote: 

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

[benr]

Ah. Thank you, I did not know that. It does make it much less mysterious.  Still, it doesn't preclude being able to arrange other events from happening (and have we been told directly that Lanfear and Moiraine were stilled, either from the entrance or by the Finns?).  I have never read anything but the books, until I got on this forum. This also means that the ToG could be used, instead of the doorframe, lessening the impact of the Lanfear-Moiraine explosive entrance (besides the fact that no-one had used the doorframe for thousands of years prior to Mat).

[Darian]

Knowing lanfear, i believe she would want revenge for what was done to her, it was apparent that the DO is greater in power than those genies.  but i think i have heard of a theory that lanfear has entered the doorway once before aleady, her three request or bargains were: 1. inhuman beauty, 2.  powerful body and mind, 3.  strongest channeler of any age; in exchange for humiliation of never getting the one she loved even with all of her good assets, the Dragon Reborn.  in her vanity and pride, she thought they had made the poor bargain...but woe to her.

[RAND AL THOR]

Where did you get that info? There has been no proof that Lanfear has been through the doorframe- and we may assume that nobody may enter twice. That is the rule with the door frame in Tear and would likely be the same with this one. Otherwise you can go in multiple times and get multiple wishes!

 

So if Lanfear had been through before, she couldn't have gone through again.

[Darian]

it was just a theory i read a long time ago.....but since both entered twice, i would say thats what cause the explosion at the door way and their prison.

[RAND AL THOR]

erm...somthing missing there.

 

Moiraine only entered once-and that was when she went in with Lanfear. ;)

 

Before that it was Matt who entered and before that it was unused for several hundred years at the very least.

[benr]

You know, after reading Mr. Ares post about all of the men that formed Mat's memories going into either the ToG or throught the doorframe, this must have been a rather common occurance at some point in time.  With all those bargains floating around, things must have gotten rather interesting.  I wonder if the Snakes got tons of visitors, too, before the doorway ended up in Mayene, then in the basements of the Stone.

[RAND AL THOR]

The number of people who entered via the door in Tear is likely (likely mind you!) to be far greater than the number that entered via the door in Rhuidean since it was in Rhuidean for quite some time.

[Mr Ares]

(and have we been told directly that Lanfear and Moiraine were stilled, either from the entrance or by the Finns?)

No, that's just a theory pieced together from the available evidence - Cyndane being weaker than Lanfear and Lan's bond to Moiraine being snapped, both things that can be caused by severing from the Source. Bond snapping can also be caused by death, but we know that didn't happen, and severing is the only thing we know of that can cause strength loss such as that seen in Cyndane (when followed by same-gender Healing).

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

The only examples of same sex healing that we've seen have all been restoring the ability to channel to someone inhabiting their own body.

 

Cyndane is an entirely different case.  From the best that we can figure out, she is Lanfear inhabiting Cabriana Mecandes' body.  Cabriana is/was a very weak channeler to begin with.  Nothing suggests that putting a strong channeler soul into a weak channeler body should result in anything other than a channeler whose strength is somewhere between those two extremes.

[Guest Dreadlord]

And it wasnt an explosion that melted the doorway it was lightening that made the cart catch fire, IIRC

[Mr Ares]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

The only examples of same sex healing that we've seen have all been restoring the ability to channel to someone inhabiting their own body.

 

Cyndane is an entirely different case.  From the best that we can figure out, she is Lanfear inhabiting Cabriana Mecandes' body.  Cabriana is/was a very weak channeler to begin with.  Nothing suggests that putting a strong channeler soul into a weak channeler body should result in anything other than a channeler whose strength is somewhere between those two extremes.

Nothing suggests, so far as I am aware, that the body is a determining factor of strength in the Power. The other three Chosen in that position suffer no changes at all to their strength. The only thing we have seen alter strength in the way described with Cyndane is Healing from severing.

[RAND AL THOR]

How much weaker is Cyndane compared to Lanfear? I think it is just a little less.

 

From the evidence so far same-gender healing of stilling drastically reduces the strength of the person. I mean, Siuan is all but a ga'shain to the AS now!

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Nothing suggests, so far as I am aware, that the body is a determining factor of strength in the Power. The other three Chosen in that position suffer no changes at all to their strength. The only thing we have seen alter strength in the way described with Cyndane is Healing from severing.

UNQUOTE

 

Im sure someone stated that RJ mentioned the body AND the soul both can influence channeling strength, although I cant remember which thread it is in. That being said, I think she was burned out (before her and Moiraine went through the doorway she was channeling using an angreal which she dropped when Moiraine tackled her) so maybe her strength dropping has something to do with that.

[Luckers]

The only examples of same sex healing that we've seen have all been restoring the ability to channel to someone inhabiting their own body.

 

Cyndane is an entirely different case.  From the best that we can figure out, she is Lanfear inhabiting Cabriana Mecandes' body.  Cabriana is/was a very weak channeler to begin with.  Nothing suggests that putting a strong channeler soul into a weak channeler body should result in anything other than a channeler whose strength is somewhere between those two extremes.

 

Unfortunately, unless you are suggesting that the Dark One not only managed to find two men who were the exact same strenth as Ishamael and Aginor, he also found a woman who was the exact same strength as Balthemel... in saidin. And they would need to be the exact same strength--they dismiss Cyndane because of varience, show the others are exactly the same as their previous incarnations.

 

In other words, whatever effect the body has on the development of strength in channelers, it does not have the same effect in cases of transmigration.

 

How much weaker is Cyndane compared to Lanfear? I think it is just a little less.

 

From the evidence so far same-gender healing of stilling drastically reduces the strength of the person. I mean, Siuan is all but a ga'shain to the AS now!

 

Same-gender healing does not drastically reduce strength. Siuan and Leane were reduced by only a small degree--the reason for their drastically reduced status is that Aes Sedai strengths cover only a small range of strengths, a small loss of strength results in a dramatic loss in social standing. Thats a fact, by the way, we know both women still stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point--indeed several steps above, we've met six Aes Sedai who stand below Siuan. A similar decline for Lanfear still leaves her stronger then any of the female channelers we know, aside from Alivia and Sharina.

 

Im sure someone stated that RJ mentioned the body AND the soul both can influence channeling strength, although I cant remember which thread it is in. That being said, I think she was burned out (before her and Moiraine went through the doorway she was channeling using an angreal which she dropped when Moiraine tackled her) so maybe her strength dropping has something to do with that.

 

RJ stated that channeling was a thing of both the body and the soul, he never made any comments in reguards to strength. Still it is likely genetics plays some part in strength--but whatever part that is, it is not something that effects transmigration.

 

Secondly, Lanfear did not drop the angreal when Moiraine tackled her. Moiraine claws at it, but we don't know who gained it. Far more likely is that they were burned out as a result of the destruction of the ter'angreal, something we've been warned about time and again. Also possibly in play is the transition into a realm that has vastly different physical laws--something that effects channeling. Combine all these elements and that makes it almost impossible that they weren't burned out--add the break of Lan's bond, Cyndanes reduced strength and the fact that the finns managed to hold these two powerful channelers against their will...

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nothing suggests, so far as I am aware, that the body is a determining factor of strength in the Power. The other three Chosen in that position suffer no changes at all to their strength. The only thing we have seen alter strength in the way described with Cyndane is Healing from severing.

 

Call it a matter of constitution.  Physical endurance.  Channeling is exhausting.  Channeling at great strength may simply be beyond certain body/constitution types.  Cabriana, apparently suffered from a frail constitution, and only a weak ability to channel.

 

The bodies the others have received may simply have suffered no such lack.  Also, the others transmigrated have all been men.  Men lack the ability to assess each other's strength in the Power unless they are actually drawing on the Power in another's presence.  Thus we can draw no conclusions about the other transmigrated, because we haven't seen any instance of them channeling in each other's presence.  They may, in fact, be weaker than they were.  It's simply a case of them, and we, having no way to know.

[benr]

I need to admit here that I started this thread with the idea that Lanfear had done in Asmo.  I first thought it when, in my umpteenth re-read, it finally registered that she had told Rand exactly what ended up happening to Asmo (forced to help Rand learn to use the power; offed when he was no longer needed).  It seemed to me that the only way it could have happened for Lanfear to be the assassin was if she had bargained with the Foxes to be allowed to take him out, as he was becoming a threat to her as his power returned, with him no longer connected to the DO.  I was waiting for the opening to introduce this, but Asmo beat me to it.  I was thrilled.

 

But, once I got into it, several of your posts revealed some real problems with this.  In order for it to be true, the following must also be true:

 

1. Lanfear was allowed to go take out Asmo by bargain with the Foxes.  Timing is a problem, but not insurmountable.  She would have to have appeared as Lanfear for Asmo to have recognized her.

 

2. If Lanfear was severed by her fall through the door with Moiraine, her power would have had to have been restored.  If she wasn't, this was a moot point.

 

3. Lanfear would then have to have had her essence transferred to Cyndane, either after death or directly.  From what we have seen of the DO, he only has done this after the death of a Chosen.  This doesn't mean he couldn't have, just that he never has; OR, it would have to have been done by the Foxes.  We have seen no evidence that they could do this, but I also don't think we have any idea what they can or cannot do.

 

4.  Since it was made a relatively big deal by RJ, there needs to be some explanation as to why Lanfear as Cyndane has less power.  We have an example of same-sex healing leaving the healed one with less power.  I don't agree that Siuan's and Leane's drop was small; they don't seem to see it that way.  Cyndane seems more concerned with Moridin's control over her than with her power level; she still seems quite powerful.  Since I see a difference, it seems possible, though not probable, that the Foxes could have restored her power. 

 

5. This still leaves the manner of Lanfear's death, if it happened.  If the Foxes took her out, for her to have killed Asmo, it would have had to have been after the fact.  Why?  Can't figure it out. Haven't seen enough evidence that they hate the Shadow to have just killed her for that reason.  Cyndane remembers being held by them, so they didn't just off her.  Moiraine survived.  If not the Foxes, then how?  I can't see the DO taking her out just to put her back into a different body. 

 

Even if she didn't kill Asmo, and all of your posts have led me to lean in that direction, her whole encounter after she and Moiraine went through the doorway is a puzzle.  I am unable to figure out, logically, how she went from the doorway to Cyndane, with less power, knowing from her POV that she was held by the Foxes, but not knowing how she died, if she did.  Help!

[RAND AL THOR]

I don't agree that Siuan's and Leane's drop was small; they don't seem to see it that way.

 

Agreed. Siuan tries to lift Bryne and absolutely nothing happens. That doesn't seem like a small drop to me.

 

It may be nice not to turn this into a Asmo killer thread

 

::)(looks around for Majsju) ::)

 

but I'll just say anyway that is not likely to be Lanfear-chiefly because of the timing. And remember that Asmo was assuming that Lanfear is dead. So his reaction just before dying doesn;t fit very well if he saw someone whom he assumed was dead. It is much more likely that he saw someone whom he knew but didn't expect to meet. And obviously he was terrified of that person since 'the blood drained from his face.'

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

< pssssst... don't tell anybody, but Asmo makes random guest appearances in almost every thread.  If Maj starts locking things because Asmo and his death crops up, there won't be any threads left to post in.  sssshhhh... mum's the word >

[Luckers]

I don't agree that Siuan's and Leane's drop was small; they don't seem to see it that way.

 

I would point out that that is exactly the issue--they don't see it that way. Their decline marks a dramatic decrease in social status, from near the top of the Aes Sedai hierarchy to near the bottom, yet the Aes Sedai hierarchy covers only a small range of strength--no more than 30% if RJ's comments about the cut off potential is accurate. Furthermore we also know that the range of strength amongst Aes Sedai is not an exact curve--they needed only to move past the average and it accounts for their loss in status, which is what they are viewing when they concider their decline in strength--literally, i went through everyone of their comments about their new strength, and in each one they are speaking of the effect it has on their social standing. That is what they are 'seeing' when they think of it.

 

Agreed. Siuan tries to lift Bryne and absolutely nothing happens. That doesn't seem like a small drop to me.

 

Lifting things with the power is described as one of the hardest things a channeler can do--that they were now unable when once they could shows only that they declined in strength, it does not suggest that they declined massively, and once again we know as a fact that they did not since they still stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

[benr]

Yeah, sorry about the Asmo thing, but the whole "what happened to Moiraine and Lanfear/Cyndane" thing did turn out to be much more interesting than I thought.  For me, it has become more of "Who killed Lanfear?"

[Bob T Dwarf]

Who killed Lanfear, or maybe how did Lanfear die is an important question.  We really need an answer to that, as well as how her transformation into Cyndane was really accomplished, before we can say anything meaningful about what Cyndane's weaker strength means.

 

Until/unless we get those answers, we're all just, ummm... throwing darts at wall and hoping we hit a soft enough spot that one of 'em sticks.

[Luckers]

Except thats not acvtually accurate. Her being severed requires nothing in her death. Ergo, very meaningful things can be said without that knowledge for it plays no part in the issue.

[Bob T Dwarf]

NO, you assume it plays no part in the issue.  Until we know the circumstances of her death and reappearance, we cannot know what is relevant and what isn't.

[Luckers]

No, i theorize it has no part, ergo allowing for very meaningful things to be said about it. Sorry bud.